Bally Kiss Aux Driver Board

(Topic ID: 135515)

Bally Kiss Aux Driver Board


By Nick_C

3 years ago



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  • 52 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by Validpowerdetect
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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kiss_aux_lamp_inputs.jpg

There are 52 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 3 years ago

Hi all, I have a bally Kiss, the KISS did not light at all when I first got it. I reflowed the header pins, after doing this most of the lights worked but no flashing. I checked wiring, bulbs, sockets, and even jumped from a working light. I replaced the U2/U3 chips, this time the entire K and I worked and half of the S's, still no flashing. I noticed that the U2 chip was not sitting level so I unsoldered in and seated it correctly, now only 1/3 of all the lights work, are the chips that I just replaced gone bad?

What makes the lights flash U2/U3, U1, or the scr's? The chips I ordered where PN HCF4555BEY alternate to the MC14555B, are these in fact eqivalent? The SCR's are PN mcr106-1, can a MCR106-6 be used, I find this as equivalent on marco pinball website.

I really appreciate the help!

#2 3 years ago

Anyone have thoughts on this?

#3 3 years ago

I don't know about your replacement component compatibility, you'll need to do some research there. If they are OK replacements, break your problem down into smaller sections. Take the "K" lights, and get them working properly, then "I", etc. Only replace an "upstream" component if it proves to be bad, and this might correct other failures.

Let me download the manual and take a look...

Wait...first, what happens with the K-I-S-S letters when you go Lamp Test?

#4 3 years ago

While the ICs in the AUX lamp boards frequently go bad. Your mixed results sounds like soldering mistakes.

#5 3 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

I don't know about your replacement component compatibility, you'll need to do some research there. If they are OK replacements, break your problem down into smaller sections. Take the "K" lights, and get them working properly, then "I", etc. Only replace an "upstream" component if it proves to be bad, and this might correct other failures.
Let me download the manual and take a look...
Wait...first, what happens with the K-I-S-S letters when you go Lamp Test?

The K-I-S-S letters flash brighter then dim but never flash on and off.

Quoted from barakandl:

While the ICs in the AUX lamp boards frequently go bad. Your mixed results sounds like soldering mistakes.

I will have a closer look, I have not replaced any scr's yet as I don't have any. I will have to order online.

#6 3 years ago

The parts you mention are equivalent.
Yes, you can use a MCR-106-6.
Get further parts here: https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/
Your wallet will thank me.

Always use a socket when replacing ICs.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#7 3 years ago

Do you have a logic probe, or at least a Digital Multi Meter?

#8 3 years ago

Thanks Chris i will have a look at Great Plains electronic, I had ordered from digikey, expensive but next day delivery.

I do not have a logic probe, a DMM yes. Would a logic probe be worth getting?

#9 3 years ago

I just repaired my Future Spa aux lamp board last week. All of the ICs were bad and its common for them to fail often. Just remove all three, solder in new SIPs and toss new chips in there. Might have some bad SCRs too but it seems less common.

Also check the solder joints on the header pins. Good idea to just reflow all of that while you have it out.

#10 3 years ago

Oh yeah, I think I ordered my chips from Mouser, so if you want part numbers let me know and I can give you exactly what worked for me.

#11 3 years ago

Yeah, a logic probe is priceless when owning solid state pins. You can 'cheat' with a meter.

Set your meter to 10-20 VDC range, or DCV if auto-ranging. Connect black lead to TP2 on AUX board.

Probe with the red lead TP1. Should see ~+5VDC.

Now probe J1 pins 1,2,3,4,7,8,9 and 10. This would be a pulse signal on the logic probe. Your meter will 'average' this signal to ~2-3 VDC. What we are looking for is one that is solid +5 VDC or solid 0 VDC.

Whatcha got?

#12 3 years ago

Just FYI, Big Daddy Enterprises has had a kit available for a number of years now for $11. Yes, there's a minimum order

http://bigdaddy-enterprises.com/repairkits/bally_kits.htm#b-auxlamp

#13 3 years ago

I probably have a bunch of these aux lamp boards. If you need a rebuilt and tested good one, let me know.

#14 3 years ago
Quoted from radium:

I just repaired my Future Spa aux lamp board last week. All of the ICs were bad and its common for them to fail often. Just remove all three, solder in new SIPs and toss new chips in there. Might have some bad SCRs too but it seems less common.
Also check the solder joints on the header pins. Good idea to just reflow all of that while you have it out.

I was looking into sockets for the IC's but the guy at digikey didn't seem to know, wish I would have gotten someone that knew. First thing I did was reflow the header pins, before that I had no lights. I'll take those PN off of you just in case, some are hard to find.

Quoted from cody_chunn:

Yeah, a logic probe is priceless when owning solid state pins. You can 'cheat' with a meter.
Set your meter to 10-20 VDC range, or DCV if auto-ranging. Connect black lead to TP2 on AUX board.
Probe with the red lead TP1. Should see ~+5VDC.
Now probe J1 pins 1,2,3,4,7,8,9 and 10. This would be a pulse signal on the logic probe. Your meter will 'average' this signal to ~2-3 VDC. What we are looking for is one that is solid +5 VDC or solid 0 VDC.
Whatcha got?

I will look around for a logic probe, those things are hard to find in a small city.

I checked with a meter, I get 5V on the 2 TP pin 1 1.60-1.63 pin 2 1.70-1.72 pin 3 .16 pin 4 not used pin 7,8,9 1.2 to 1.6 pin 10 5.3V steady.

Quoted from barakandl:

I probably have a bunch of these aux lamp boards. If you need a rebuilt and tested good one, let me know.

I will keep that in mind, I could get a tested board but then I will not getvthe satisfaction of repairing it myself, I will let you know.

Thanks everyone for all the help!

#15 3 years ago

Here's those Mouser part numbers for you. Like $2 total.

595-CD4555BE
595-CD4013BE

#16 3 years ago

OK, my bad, I was referencing the 8BD aux schem. Here's KISS:

kiss aux lamp inputs.jpg

So pins 1,2,3,7,8,9 and 10 are the ones to probe, which you did. They look good except pin 3 @ .16, which is a constant LO, and pin 10 @ 5.3 which is a constant HI.

Disconnect J1 from AUX driver board. Enter Lamp Test. Now probe pins 3 and 10 in the plastic housing. Are they still 3=.16 and 10=5.3?

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from radium:

Here's those Mouser part numbers for you. Like $2 total.
595-CD4555BE
595-CD4013BE

Thanks radium!

Quoted from cody_chunn:

OK, my bad, I was referencing the 8BD aux schem. Here's KISS:
kiss aux lamp inputs.jpg
So pins 1,2,3,7,8,9 and 10 are the ones to probe, which you did. They look good except pin 3 @ .16, which is a constant LO, and pin 10 @ 5.3 which is a constant HI.
Disconnect J1 from AUX driver board. Enter Lamp Test. Now probe pins 3 and 10 in the plastic housing. Are they still 3=.16 and 10=5.3?

I tried what you suggested, this is what I get 3= .16 and 10 =1.3 -1.7V.

Does this come from the MPU? I am used to ready aircraft wiring diagrams, still just learning my way around pinball diagrams.

Nick

#18 3 years ago

There is a few versions of this AUX board with different components. Make sure everyone on same page.

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from Nick_C:

I noticed that the U2 chip was not sitting level so I unsoldered in and seated it correctly, now only 1/3 of all the lights work,

I would go back to the u2 chip and start there ,when you reflowed the solder at the header pins you should change the connectors and pins too .

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from Nick_C:

Thanks radium!

I tried what you suggested, this is what I get 3= .16 and 10 =1.3 -1.7V.
Does this come from the MPU? I am used to ready aircraft wiring diagrams, still just learning my way around pinball diagrams.
Nick

OK, it looks like pin 10 recovered when disconnected, so something on the board is holding that line HI.
I still don't like pin 3 being held LO as that is the Clock signal(s) for U1 and if I understand properly the outputs can't toggle (to turn lamps on and off) unless the Clock line transitions from LO to HI.

If I have time tonight, I will do some checks on my 8BD AUX board inputs and see if I can confirm what we should be seeing on those lines.

#21 3 years ago

Clock pin should be lamp strobe 2 i would imagine. Lamp strobe 2 should be the inverse of lamp strobe 1. Both lamp strobes should always be pulsing. Probably near the zero crossing timer.

#22 3 years ago

OK, I have some readings for you.

Game in Lamp Test, all lamps blinking. The voltage reading will be jumping up and down in unison with the lamps.

Meter set to 20 VDC range, NOT auto-ranging.

All readings on J1:

Pin 1 (AD1): 1.3 - 1.8 +VDC
Pin 2 (AD0): 1.3 - 1.8 +VDC
Pin 3 (Lamp Strobe): -.1VDC - +.2VDC (minus point one to plus point two VDC)
Pin 7 (PD1): 1.1 - 1.9 +VDC
Pin 8 (PD0): 1.4 - 2.2 +VDC
Pin 9 (PD2): 1.2 - 1.8 +VDC
Pin 10 (PD3): 1.0 - 1.9 +VDC

These are outputs from the MPU. By disconnecting J1 and probing the connector pins you are isolating the inputs from the board. Let's pull that connector again and probe all the above pins. Pin 3 is critical. Reconnect J1 and re-probe the pins. Before, the only change was Pin 10 being held HI (+~3.5VDC or higher).

So how do your readings compare to mine?

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

OK, I have some readings for you.
Game in Lamp Test, all lamps blinking. The voltage reading will be jumping up and down in unison with the lamps.
Meter set to 20 VDC range, NOT auto-ranging.
All readings on J1:
Pin 1 (AD1): 1.3 - 1.8 +VDC
Pin 2 (AD0): 1.3 - 1.8 +VDC
Pin 3 (Lamp Strobe): -.1VDC - +.2VDC (minus point one to plus point two VDC)
Pin 7 (PD1): 1.1 - 1.9 +VDC
Pin 8 (PD0): 1.4 - 2.2 +VDC
Pin 9 (PD2): 1.2 - 1.8 +VDC
Pin 10 (PD3): 1.0 - 1.9 +VDC
These are outputs from the MPU. By disconnecting J1 and probing the connector pins you are isolating the inputs from the board. Let's pull that connector again and probe all the above pins. Pin 3 is critical. Reconnect J1 and re-probe the pins. Before, the only change was Pin 10 being held HI (+~3.5VDC or higher).
So how do your readings compare to mine?

Thanks again for all the help, this is what I get.

pin 1 1.7VDC
pin2 1.8VDC
pin 3 .16VDC
pin 7 1.5VDC
pin 8 1.7 VDC
pin 9 1.5VDC
pin 10 1.5 VDC

Pins 1-3 are pretty steady the others fluctuate 1.2 to 1.8VDC.
All readings including pin 10 are the same with connector on or off. For some reason pin 10 is good now but lights still the same, at least that rules out the mpu correct? As a side note all resistors check out good.
Should I replace the 3 chips?

#24 3 years ago

Lamp strobe 1 is not used on the aux board. You want lamp strobe 2. It is P11 on MPU j1.

The rest of those voltage readings you can assume are pulses which is valid.

#25 3 years ago

I wouldn't do any board work yet. That Pin 3 never getting above or below .16 has me concerned. I think we should meter the other lamp strobe and see what its behavior is.

All the rest of the lights seem to be working properly?

Also a cheap logic probe will increase your troubleshooting abilities exponentially.

amazon.com link »

There have been threads where some were suggested here as well.

#26 3 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

I wouldn't do any board work yet. That Pin 3 never getting above or below .16 has me concerned. I think we should meter the other lamp strobe and see what its behavior is.
All the rest of the lights seem to be working properly?
Also a cheap logic probe will increase your troubleshooting abilities exponentially.
amazon.com link »
There have been threads where some were suggested here as well.

The lamp strobe pulse is near zero crossing. So it is really slow which I think makes pulse will look like very low volts on a DMM's average reading. Probe or scope will tell for sure.

#27 3 years ago

OK, probe MPU J1 pins 8 and 11, while in Lamp Test. What do you see?

#28 3 years ago

amazon.com link »

+2 on this logic prob. I like it. After getting used to it, you will start relying on the sound it makes.

#29 3 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Also a cheap logic probe will increase your troubleshooting abilities exponentially.

Quoted from barakandl:

+2 on this logic prob. I like it. After getting used to it, you will start relying on the sound it makes.

I will get a logic probe this weekend, hopefully tomorrow, I can get the same one locally.

ok, I pinned out 8 and 11, I get .16V and .23V. Doesn't matter if it is in lamp test or not. In lamp test the bulbs go bright and dim but never completely off.

#30 3 years ago

This is still just the K-I-S-S backbox lamps? All other lamps behaving normally?

#31 3 years ago

Yes, all other lamps work great.

#32 3 years ago

All right. Let's assume that .16 is a good signal for a moment, and that all the inputs to your board are correct.

Let's probe U1, pins 1 and 13. These should be pulsing outputs that control the other four chips.

Do any of the K-I-S-S letters operate properly?

#33 3 years ago

I picked up a logic probe/logic pulses, hopefully this will work model #1 is LP-540H.

The top of all the letters work but never flash.

I will try to use the probe, do i clip positive lead to positive on the board and negative lead to negative on board then probe pins using the probe on tester?

#34 3 years ago

I looked up your probe model but couldn't find a clear pic of the switches right off.

Anyway, set it to TTL, not CMOS...don't know about the "pulser" part...turn that off if you can.

Connect Black lead to AUX board TP2.
Connect Red lead to AUX board TP1.
Probe TP1.
You should get a HI response.

Enter Lamp Test.
Now we thought we had good inputs, but let's verify with the probe:
J1 pins 1,2,3,7,8,9,10 all should be pulsing. It may also say LO, HI, or both along with the pulse blinking, that's OK.
All pins pulsing?

If yes:
Probe U1 pins 1 and 13
Both pulsing?

[Edit] also, let's probe U1 pins 3 and 11 and see what the clocks are up to.

#35 3 years ago

After closer look at the probe, it is a logic pulser and not a probe. I will see if I can find one tomorrow and try what you have suggested.

#36 3 years ago

OK. I thought I read where it had a probe function, but it sounded strange.

#37 3 years ago

Ok so I picked up a logic probe. On J1 on lamp test I get pulsing on all pins except 3 which is low. U1 pins 1 and 13 are low, so are pins 3 and 11. I get same if not on lamp test

#38 3 years ago

Pin 3 is the Lamp Strobe. It should be LO *and* Pulsing (LO led on solid, Pulse LED blinking).

You can leave the game in Attract Mode to take probes.

Probe MPU board: J1 pins 8 and 11, the two lamp strobes. They should both be LO and Pulsing. If pin 11 is, but pin 8 remains LO, disconnect J1 from AUX board and re-probe pin 8. Does it now Pulse?

#39 3 years ago

Alright after checking it all again, pin 3 does pulse and low, on U1 1 and 13, 3 and 11 are low, no pulse. MPU J1 pins 8 and 11 both lo and pulsing.

#40 3 years ago

no schematic in front of me but if u1 p3 and 11 are outputs selected by the lamp strobe and they never pulse, that IC is bad.

#41 3 years ago

Pins 3 and 11 are the clock inputs, which is the lamp strobe fed through a 20K resistor. Pins 1 and 13 are the outputs.

What I don't get is that the Lamp Strobe is correct @ MPU, but by the time it gets to AUX IC1 pins 3 and 11 it's no longer pulsing.

There's a detail of the circuit in post #16.

I might would agree AUX U1 is bad, but the two Clocks remaining LO is confusing.

#42 3 years ago

All the help is greatly appreciated, I am just learning logic circuits, I would love to give more input.

I am not sure if this is relevant or not, I probed the input side of R2 and I get lo pulse, the output is lo only. Could R2 be no good with voltage applied to it? I have checked the resistance and it checked out good with no load.

I also put the probe switch in mem, sometimes the pulse light comes on, 1 flash on initial probing of pin 3and 11, and output of R2. After discovering this I reflowed U1 and output of R2, no success though.

#43 3 years ago

I verified in my 8BD (same 20K/2.2MEG input resistor circuit) that the clock signal should be pulsing at the chip leg (or the output side of the 20K resistor)...so I'm going to say that U1 is bad, keeping the clocks and outputs LO.

I think we have done due diligence to prove that chip has failed, and am comfortable suggesting replacing it.

Ed has them pretty cheap:
https://greatplainselectronics.com/search.asp?pg=1&stext=MC14013&sprice=&stype=&scat=

#44 3 years ago

I put in my order, getting a socket for the chip, I will let you know how it works out.

#45 3 years ago

I hope I haven't led you astray!

#46 3 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

I hope I haven't led you astray!

Either way I have learnt alot, if it doesn't fix it we'll just have to keep trying.

I have already used the logic probe on another pin, I think I narrowed this one down to a diode.

Thanks again for all the help

#47 3 years ago

Well, that was the hope of the exercise, that you would learn a little bit about how circuits work and how to troubleshoot them. I'm not as educated/experienced as I should be to try to instruct, but I learn as I go too. The helping is the important part!

Let me know how you fare.

#48 3 years ago

Got my parts today, replaced U1 chip and installed a socket. It works!! After 15 years of it not working (I have only owned the game for a couple of months)
Thanks to all you guys that helped me out on this.

#49 3 years ago

Nice! We probably had people shaking their heads wondering why we didn't just shotgun the board, but we only replaced what we HAD to for the repair. No wasted chips, no unnecessary solder work on the board. A fine success!

Enjoy you game...I always liked Kiss even though it's not universally well-received.

#50 3 years ago

Logic probes are ok, but an o'scope will show you so much more. They are not that hard to use, plenty of online tutorials, and some great bargins can be had on used units on ebay.

One easy way to use one, is to go through a known good board, taking pics of pertinent signals on the display, then compare to the board giving you trouble.

Also, o'scopes can be a valuable tool troubleshooting power supply boards. DC,AC, and ripple can allbe easily observed.

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