(Topic ID: 308347)

Bally Joust questions

By Skybug

6 months ago


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#1 6 months ago

Hi all!

I have a 1969 Bally Joust which needs a bit of tweaking:

1- With my Williams games, I can have Add-A-Ball AND Match No. ON for extra balls. Tried to set it up that way on the Bally. Today Player #2 got Match No. but nothing happened (well I heard a dull clunk sound, not sure if that indicated the end of the game or if it was supposed to be the knocker, but no extra ball.) How does Match No. even work, in a multi-player game?

2- Listen to this video, do you hear a clicking sound? Should that be a bell or something? I noticed two bells in the backbox but haven't inspected them.

Thank you!
-Karen

#2 6 months ago

Dull clunk was probably your knocker. It should have given you a credit on credit wheel in backglass area as well.
You will not get an extra ball when game goes into game over,which is when the match works.
You will not get an extra ball unless your game is a add-a-ball game or you hit an extra ball target somewhere.Or even a rollover. A light should come on indicating you have an extra ball. Read your instructions on the apron to see how to get extra ball.
On the video,the first pop bumper the ball hits had no bell.Could be the way the game was made,but I think you have a setting in the backbox that will give you a bell at 1 and 10 pt. May just need an adjustment.

#3 6 months ago
Quoted from Skybug:

1- With my Williams games, I can have Add-A-Ball AND Match No. ON for extra balls. Tried to set it up that way on the Bally. Today Player #2 got Match No. but nothing happened (well I heard a dull clunk sound, not sure if that indicated the end of the game or if it was supposed to be the knocker, but no extra ball.)

The manual (available on IPDB.org) says that the High Score feature can be set for extra balls or replays but that the Match feature is for replays only.

Quoted from Skybug:

How does Match No. even work, in a multi-player game?

(The schematic on IPDB.org is kind of ratty. If you have a better copy maybe you could send them a good scan.)
Joust Match (resized).jpg
The three boxes in the upper right corner above represent the Match Unit disc and the 1 point score reels for both players. The arrows pointing into each of the three boxes indicate the current position of each device. As each score reel advances its arrow too advances through the ten positions. The Match Unit is a step unit that advances "randomly" during the game; in fact it takes three steps each time the score motor turns (not shown here) but the intention is that the function that advances the Match Unit is unknown and/or hard to keep track of.

After the last ball the game just needs to determine if the number it chose with the Match Unit is the same as the number shown on either score reel. If the positions of the Match Unit and either player's score reel match, their arrows would line up and form a complete circuit from the top of the schematic through the Match Unit and score reel. For example if the Match Unit and player 1's score reel are both in position 3 there would be a complete circuit from the top of the schematic, through the 23-4 wire between the Match Unit and score reels and out to the 57-1 wire at the bottom of player 1's score reel.

Just below the score reels are two Score Motor switches, 3A and 4E (in red). Looking at the Score Motor chart in the upper left you can see that the switches on the #3 cam all activate just before the switches on the #4 cam. So the effect is that the game evaluates the match condition for player 1 first and then player 2 immediately after. Note that the 2nd player is only evaluated if the "2 Can Play" relay has tripped and closed the normally open switch shown, indicating that two players are playing.

Below that is a switch on the Match relay which closes only at the end of the game. Otherwise you might award a replay any time the Score Motor turns. Next to the Match relay switch is the Match Feature adjustment which can disable the feature altogether.

At the bottom of the schematic is a normally closed switch on the Replay Unit that opens if the unit has the maximum number of credits to keep the unit from trying to add more credits than it can hold. Below that is the Replay Unit Step Up solenoid which advances the Replay Unit by one step, adding one credit, each time it fires.

/Mark

#4 6 months ago

Wow thank you Mark, for teaching me how to read the schematic! I need to study this again and again.
My Williams EM manuals (Klondike, Gulfstream) as well as the Bally Joust manual, all say to turn match feature off if set to add-a-ball. However if I leave it on in the Williams machines I will get awarded an extra ball on match (=extra fun!). One day I will compare schematics to see what the difference is.

#5 6 months ago

I'm pretty sure Joust doesn't have an extra ball feature. The "Same player shoot again" insert on the playfield is for when the right out-lane feeds the ball to the shooter lane.

There is only supposed to be 1 bell on the back box side wall. I did try installing a 2'nd bell on my match unit (00-90) like other bally games of that era but the way the unit worked it didn't sound right. You may have a bell installed on your match unit with it adjusted so it doesn't ring. The clicking noise you hear is that match unit and is normal.

I would say the dull thunk you hear as you matched was the knocker under the right flipper button inside the cabinet.

Added 6 months ago:

Since posting the striked out above I discovered (through these posts) an additional ball feature awarded by score instead of a replay.

#6 6 months ago

Thank you for this valuable information! I'm going to be studying the machine this weekend.
If that was the knocker, the sound was quite dull compared to my other machines. I have turned the match feature off now, and I wonder if the knocker will strike in Shoot Again mode...?

#7 6 months ago

The knocker (called the Sounder on this schematic) only fires when the Replay (or Credit) unit advance arm closes its EOS (end of stroke) switch. So it only knocks when you get a credit.

#8 6 months ago

I have turned the match feature off, and yes I have a bell at my match unit but the striker is set too far away to strike it. Well I guess I don't need to worry about that, or the knocker giving off a proper sound, if I am in Joust's add-a-ball set up. Is this better for home play? Feels like I'm missing out on some cool sounds...

#9 6 months ago

At first I thought a 2'nd bell was missing as it was present and functioning on my The Wiggler . I looked at https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1317 for Joust and in the written description mentioned 1 bell & the images inside the back-box confirm only 1 bell. In my stubbornness I tried putting a bell on the match unit and it was mostly annoying especially when the sequence between the ball in play changed. You'll just have to adjust the bell so the clanger will strike it for a few games to see what I mean.

For the change over from replay to add-a-ball the thing I would miss is the dull knocker sound; I actually feel it more than I hear it when the replay threshold is met.

Looking at the schematic I thought just jumping the jones selector for both replay and shoot again BUT if the "play more gate" was opened and the ball went into the shooter lane there would be another credit added and the knocker would sound .... I suppose a strategically placed diode there may work but a 2'nd opinion on that would be wise

Joust high score feature plug (resized).jpg
#10 6 months ago

Chas Here is my backbox, with match bell. Do you really think someone would have added the bell? Or could Bally have added it in later models? My serial # is 1853 and the IPDB serial #s are lower. Just curious if they would do that...can you see a bell in my schematic that I sent you?

PXL_20220128_024540030 (resized).jpg

#11 6 months ago

I don't know if Joust originally had one but Match Units with bells were common, and bells were often removed. This is from the '66 parts catalog:
Bally 1966 catalog Match Unit (resized).jpg
Bells like this are driven by the advance arm on the step unit. The schematic will show the circuit for the step unit advance solenoid, but won't usually show the bell since there is no dedicated circuit for it.

#12 6 months ago

MarkG Thank you, this is a useful diagram. So now maybe I can figure out how to get it working again, only to disconnect it when I find I hate the sound, haha!

#13 6 months ago
Quoted from Skybug:

Chas Here is my backbox, with match bell. Do you really think someone would have added the bell? Or could Bally have added it in later models? My serial # is 1853 and the IPDB serial #s are lower. Just curious if they would do that...can you see a bell in my schematic that I sent you?
[quoted image]

Quoted from MarkG:

I don't know if Joust originally had one but Match Units with bells were common, and bells were often removed. This is from the '66 parts catalog:
[quoted image]
Bells like this are driven by the advance arm on the step unit. The schematic will show the circuit for the step unit advance solenoid, but won't usually show the bell since there is no dedicated circuit for it.

Again my Joust came with 1 bell & I first confirmed it was only intended to have 1 bell from the IPDB page https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1317

I didn't look into part numbers from the Bally Parts manuals to see if it was omitted, it possibly could have shipped with it installed on the Match unit ...

un-loosen the nut and slide it in the slot towards the clanger then re-tighten the nut (hey "unloosen" is really a word https://www.dictionary.com/browse/unloose )

#14 6 months ago

Haha! Upon more research, I didn't need to unloosen anything, ha!
I definitely have two bell sounds, the little one by the match unit strikes three quick times in succession, higher pitched than the other bell. It strikes when shooting the ball into the shooter lane, and also when the ball gets into the kick-out hole near the arch. Those are the two places I noticed so far. So, an add-on?

3 weeks later
#15 5 months ago

I currently have it in Add-a-Ball setup (= high score feature plugged in Shoot Again position, match feature plugged in Off position).
When I score two extra balls (e.g. free ball gate and reaching high score), Shoot Again lights up for me but turns off after giving me only one extra ball. Is this how the funky add-a-ball works?

#16 5 months ago

And the unit struggles to shoot the ball into the shooter Lane, sometimes trying up to four times to get it there. What is the name of the switch that I'm looking for here? Is it the out hole relay?
I'm looking at the schematics and I can't tell which section represents cabinet, playfield underside, backbox...so on the schematics I found the out hole relay (if that's what I'm looking for) but how do I determine the location on the actual machine?

#17 5 months ago
Quoted from Skybug:

And the unit struggles to shoot the ball into the shooter Lane, sometimes trying up to four times to get it there. What is the name of the switch that I'm looking for here? Is it the out hole relay?
I'm looking at the schematics and I can't tell which section represents cabinet, playfield underside, backbox...so on the schematics I found the out hole relay (if that's what I'm looking for) but how do I determine the location on the actual machine?

Are the placards still in place next to all the relays ? I don't think the schematics -or- the manual describe their specific location on the machine

I DID submit the relay strips to member Inkochnito and he posted them here: http://www.pinballrebel.com/pinball/cards/ if yours are missing I don't have the machine near me so I'm not sure of the orientation

#18 5 months ago

Yes it's well labeled inside, but is that what I'm looking for? The out hole relay? Or is there something else I should be looking for?

#19 5 months ago

I think your looking for the ball return kicker solenoid. Has the apron been removed to inspect it’s mechanical operation?

#20 5 months ago

No, I haven't removed the apron recently. Is the solenoid under there? What would I be looking for, besides an obvious blockage in the path?

#21 5 months ago

Would this be the knocker? And where the heck does it plug in?

PXL_20220223_215632018~2 (resized).jpg
#22 5 months ago

Yes, it's the knocker. It plugs into the socket on the right side of the bottom board. You might notice that the wire colors match too.
Knocker (resized).jpg
/Mark

#23 5 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Yes, it's the knocker. It plugs into the socket on the right side of the bottom board. You might notice that the wire colors match too.
[quoted image]
/Mark

I looked at that spot, but the female plug is sideways, and all other plugs are straight up and down. So it plugs in sideways? It seems the bakelite holder is too wide for that...let me try again, thanks!

#24 5 months ago

Please help!
During 1st Player's turn, no score, and the loud buzz is the 100/1000 bell coil that's vibrating in back. When done, 2nd player scores 1111. Buzz turns off at Player 2's turn. Pattern repeats for each ball.
Yesterday I was cleaning the switches on the 2nd Player Up relay, and adjusted a couple of them ever so slightly cuz they looked like they weren't closing. Could this have messed everything up?
What do I do now?

#25 5 months ago

The bell is driven by the 100 and/or 1000 point relay. Chances are one of them is stuck on. Once any point relay fires it holds itself on through a lock in circuit until the EOS (end of stroke) switch on the score reel opens. The EOS switch opens once the score reel plunger has pulled in to let the point relay know that it's work is done and it can relax. It's a feedback mechanism.
Joust 100 pt relay (resized).jpg
Judging from your video it doesn't seem like any of the player 1 score reels advance. That could be due to the make/break switch on the 2nd Player Up relay not closing on the player 1 side:
Joust score reels (resized).jpg
So it could be that the 100 or 1000 point relay fires, and waits to see one of the player 1 score reels advance but the score reel is disabled because the switch in the red box isn't closing.

BTW you shouldn't let a solenoid buzz like that for very long. They're intended to work for only a fraction of a second at a time. They quickly overheat if left on much longer than that and as you've seen the fuse won't blow.

#26 5 months ago

Thank you, Mark!

Okay so it looks like I probably *did* mess something up by "adjusting" a contact on that 2nd Player Up relay. I've never done an adjustment before, only just cleaning. I also tightened the switch stacks on that relay. I should have left well enough alone.
Now how to know where the red box is? Do I see only one make/break switch in this diagram? If so, I should be able to figure it out.

#27 5 months ago

Skybug, The red box is a switch on the 2nd player up relay in the backbox, See photo. The switch you need is the one with the Red-White wire. I think it is Green-Black on one side of that switch and White-Yellow on the other.

One side of the switch should be open while the other side is closed. Look real close as you press the switch stack down with your finger, the open side should close and the closed side should open.

saearbb (resized).jpg
#28 5 months ago
Quoted from Skybug:

how to know where the red box is?

The schematic gives you enough information to work it out. The switch is on the 2nd Player Up relay which you've already identified. The schematic shows you that it's a make/break or three bladed switch. It also shows you the three wire colors.
Joust wire colors (resized).jpg
That should be enough to uniquely identify the switch you're after. Some games (notably Williams games) come with manuals that explicitly spell out each switch.

BTW, the schematic copy on IPDB.org could be better. If you have a good copy consider sending a quality scan to IPDB.org. Some of the big box office stores will scan it for a few bucks.

#29 5 months ago

Hi guys,
Sorry I just don't see it. I've identified the middle one in front as the culprit, based on the wire colors. I can't see what's wrong...? Contacts are touching on both sides...what am I missing here?
Thank you

#30 5 months ago

If you use an alligator clip test lead to jumper the 15-3/red-white wire to the 48-5/green-black wire do the player 1 score reels work? If so the switch contacts might be dirty or maybe there's not enough tension between the two switch leaves.

#31 5 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

If you use an alligator clip test lead to jumper the 15-3/red-white wire to the 48-5/green-black wire do the player 1 score reels work? If so the switch contacts might be dirty or maybe there's not enough tension between the two switch leaves.

Geez I don't know. I'll have to find some alligator clips.
I've cleaned the switches though, with a flexstone file. The other day I screwed the stack tighter before cleaning the switches, would that have messed it up too?

#32 5 months ago

Tightening the screws could change the tension between some of the switch blades.

#33 5 months ago

Shall I loosen them a bit? I'm so discouraged. I raised the lowest leaf so it could make better contact with the middle one, and I got one game without buzzing! and then it started to buzz again.

#34 5 months ago

I would jumper around the switch first. That will tell you whether or not the switch is the issue. No sense futzing with it if the issue is somewhere else. If it is the issue, adjust the switch leaves with a switch adjuster, not with the switch stack screws.

#35 5 months ago

If you don't have any clips, an alternative is to do the opposite of jumpers. Use piece of heavy paper l(like a pieces of a business card) and block the switches in question.

In your case, I would block both sides of your suspect switch. With both sides blocked neither player should score, Then remove the paper from one side, test, put paper back in, remove paper from other side, and test again. When the problem comes back, you'll know if you've found the right switch.

If nothing changes either way, you've either got the wrong switch or your problem lies elsewhere.

#36 5 months ago

Thanks, guys. I'm guessing this 2nd Player Up switch is the culprit, as it's the one I was messing with before things went wonky. A week ago, everything was working except for the "2nd Player" lights in the backbox. I had messed with this switch and lightly greased the Player Up stepper unit spider rivets, also cleaned a couple of relay switches related to multiplay and 2nd player. Not knowing which switch would actually turn the lights on. And the lights are working now!

So, here's where I'm at now. The buzzing continues and I turn off the game immediately. But I discovered if I tap the metal part above the coil, the buzz stops. Does this action tell you what I need to do next?

I'll get some alligator clips tomorrow, and will try the paper trick tonight.

#37 5 months ago

What coil is buzzing? .. it could be the bell or the match unit; along with a score reel. I suspect an EOS switch on a score reel. tapping the 2'nd player relay like you did opens the circuit of that score reel

(From the video it looks like a player 1 score reel ... from a fresh game you should be able to figure out which one , hit a 1 pt switch , a 10 point switch ect.)

When I hear buzzing like that on my machines I "panic" and shut them down right away , I think you might have a couple of minutes before the coil melts. The cooler things are when things start the better.

#38 5 months ago
Quoted from chas10e:

What coil is buzzing? .. it could be the bell or the match unit; along with a score reel. I suspect an EOS switch on a score reel. tapping the 2'nd player relay like you did opens the circuit of that score reel
(From the video it looks like a player 1 score reel ... from a fresh game you should be able to figure out which one , hit a 1 pt switch , a 10 point switch ect.)
When I hear buzzing like that on my machines I "panic" and shut them down right away , I think you might have a couple of minutes before the coil melts. The cooler things are when things start the better.

Initially, the coil at the bell was buzzing. But that was several days ago, I haven't checked recently.
I backed up just a tiny bit on my 2nd Player Up switch stack screws last night, as I had tightened them quite a bit. Then I tried the paper test stated here by edednedy. Wrote several notes as to when the buzz happened in a one player and a two player game, when THIS switch was blocked or THAT switch was blocked. Results were inconsistent in terms of scoring, but when I removed the business card pieces, the loud buzz had disappeared! Can a game adjust itself??
I played several games after that, waiting for the loud buzz to reappear, but it didn't! Played a couple of games this morning, same result!

The only thing I hear now is that sometimes (sometimes not) there's a teeny tiny consistent buzz over by the Player 2 stepper unit. When I touch the plunger, it stops. So I think I'll clean that stepper and replace the metal sleeves with plastic sleeves and see what happens then.

#39 5 months ago
Quoted from Skybug:... when I removed the business card pieces, the loud buzz had disappeared! Can a game adjust itself??

Inserting and removing the business card, you may have cleaned a dirty switch without knowing it. Many people use a business card strip to clean contacts, so it's possible.

#40 5 months ago

Possibly! But I had cleaned all those switches on that relay with a flexstone file. Maybe it just needed a little more cleaning. Yay!

#41 5 months ago

For a switch to work 3 things are necessary:
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points (duh)
2) When closing, the long blade's contact point should push the short blade's contact point enough to move the short blade
3) The contact points should be clean, which they usually will be if #2 is happening

#42 5 months ago

So, the high scores were set very low, too easy to reach, 28,000 being the first to reach. In fact, in add-a-ball mode, I would reach two high scores while playing in the same turn, but then Shoot Again only gave me one free ball when it reached the outhole. (Does Shoot Again only register one extra ball at a time? Or can I fix this?)
BUT NOW I changed the high scores to a more challenging setup - the recommended high scores for a 5-ball game - and now I don't get a reward for the extra ball and Shoot Again doesn't light up in this case. I have triple-checked the High Score wire arrangement and even set it back to where it was, but it's not happening anymore.

#43 5 months ago

I don't follow where you ended up with the adjustments, but you can have either a replay or an extra ball/shoot again for reaching a high score threshold, not both (unless you jumper both sockets in the adjustment together):
Joust Hi Score adj (resized).jpg

/Mark

#44 5 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

I don't follow where you ended up with the adjustments, but you can have either a replay or an extra ball/shoot again for reaching a high score threshold, not both (unless you jumper both sockets in the adjustment together):
[quoted image]
/Mark

Yes, I have it set to "add-a-ball", per the directions. It worked fine with the previous Hi-score setup.
But when I changed the high score numbers in the backbox to make the game more challenging, Shoot Again won't work now for the high score, and I don't get an extra ball.
PXL_20220307_220804709 (resized).jpg

#45 5 months ago

The high score circuit is in reply #43. You could try experimenting with different high score levels. Or you could try eliminating parts of the circuit with a jumper wire to see if you can isolate the problem. For example if you jumper from the 14-7 wire at the top to the 58 wire next to the 1000 point relay switch shoot again should activate every time 1000 points are added. That would indicate the problem is somewhere between the 14-7 wire and the 58 wire.

#46 5 months ago

Thank you!
This is a bit over my head. I'll ask a friend to help me troubleshoot with this info. We'll figure it out.
Hopefully I'll learn something at your workshop next week.

#47 5 months ago

Your problem could be this switch on your 2nd Player Up relay. See switch in blue circle. If it is open it won't complete the circuit to the Shoot Again relay. I know you had some issues with the 2nd Player Up relay earlier and did some adjusting on it, so it would seem to be the most likely culprit. I would jumper the White wire to the White/Black wire on this 2nd Player up relay and see what happens. Or in place of a jumper, just make sure that switch is clean and making good contact. It is a make-break switch so when one side opens the other should close and vice-versa.

jousts1 (resized).jpg
#48 5 months ago
Quoted from edednedy:

Your problem could be this switch on your 2nd Player Up relay. See switch in blue circle. If it is open it won't complete the circuit to the Shoot Again relay. I know you had some issues with the 2nd Player Up relay earlier and did some adjusting on it, so it would seem to be the most likely culprit. I would jumper the White wire to the White/Black wire on this 2nd Player up relay and see what happens. Or in place of a jumper, just make sure that switch is clean and making good contact. It is a make-break switch so when one side opens the other should close and vice-versa.[quoted image]

Yes that's probably it. Wish I had never fiddled with that switch. Thank you!!

1 month later
#49 3 months ago
Quoted from Skybug:

So, the high scores were set very low, too easy to reach, 28,000 being the first to reach. In fact, in add-a-ball mode, I would reach two high scores while playing in the same turn, but then Shoot Again only gave me one free ball when it reached the outhole. (Does Shoot Again only register one extra ball at a time? Or can I fix this?)
BUT NOW I changed the high scores to a more challenging setup - the recommended high scores for a 5-ball game - and now I don't get a reward for the extra ball and Shoot Again doesn't light up in this case. I have triple-checked the High Score wire arrangement and even set it back to where it was, but it's not happening anymore.

Well I have several issues in this post, and I finally resolved this one.
It turns out the diagram for the high scores is different from the actual machine in that there are eight plug openings on the right side instead of seven. This is the matching setup which works!

PXL_20220501_233040888 (resized).jpgPXL_20220501_233100851 (resized).jpg
#50 3 months ago
Quoted from Skybug:

And the unit struggles to shoot the ball into the shooter lane, sometimes trying up to four times to get it there. What is the name of the switch that I'm looking for here? Is it the out hole relay?

Here is the underside of the ball return kicker. The arm seems awfully close to the coil and isn't centered in the hole above. Could this be the reason the solenoid struggles to kick the ball out? Can I bend the metal to straighten it, or are there screws involved that can be readjusted?

PXL_20220430_011201778 (resized).jpg
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