(Topic ID: 244899)

Bally Goldball - intermittent restart


By mima

38 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 44 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 hour ago by Quench
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 38 days ago

I have a Bally Goldball that intermittent during gameplay restarts (not resets), and all points reset and balls reverts to ball one, player one.

I have tried different mpus, same result. Any suggestions (in detail) to where to look next, and for what?

Thanks for helping
/mima

#2 38 days ago

Have you looked at the credit button switch to see if it maybe needs to be adjusted. Contacts might be too close together.

1 week later
#3 31 days ago

Thanks, but that is not the case Any sugestions?

#4 31 days ago

It’s acting *exactly* as if you hit the credit button, a totally normal game startup, credit decrement by one etc.?

#5 31 days ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

It’s acting *exactly* as if you hit the credit button, a totally normal game startup, credit decrement by one etc.?

It randomly happens during 4player games as well (2 and 3 too).

"start game" switch is gapped accordingly.

Nothing "funny" happens while in a game (or between games) when manually tampering with the wires and diode soldered to the switch.

It is not the credit button, as that was the first i checked when i noticed that intermittent behavior during gameplay.

#6 31 days ago
Quoted from mima:

I have tried different mpus, same result.
/mima

That comment reminds me, isn't there something special about the Gold Ball -35 MPU re. zero crossing detect. I'm not sure about swapping them without the zcd mod.

Edit. Just checked in my Gold Ball the MPU is a -133, that was only used in a few games so it suprised me you have different mpus to test.

#7 31 days ago

True that. I have the original (known working board) and a new repro configured for gold ball (https://nvram.weebly.com/new-pcbs.html#)

#8 30 days ago

I’m gonna watch this thread closely. I’ve got possibly the same problem you are having. I’ve got a Elektra that also re starts like you started a new game on a single player game. Mine will also start a new game for a second player while playing. Gap is good. Clipped the cap on the start switch. No change. Different MPUs same problem.

#9 30 days ago

My EBD has no cap on the credit button switch, not on the schems either. So if you have a cap on yours yes I’d try cutting that first.

#10 30 days ago

This sounds like a switch matrix problem, Check your front door coin switches and make sure you do not have a stuck one. My read of the schematic, which has a typo in the strobe labeling, shows if you have a stuck coin switch and the #3 target is down the game will reset if you hit the matching bumper.

#11 29 days ago

BIG AL HAS SPOKEN!!
Don’t know if this applies to my Elektra , but I’m gonna check this out.

#12 29 days ago

Inkochnito has produced a great tech chart including the switch matrix to help troubleshoot
http://www.pinballrebel.com/pinball/cards/Tech_Charts/Bally_Goldball_Tech_Chart.pdf

#13 29 days ago

This has reminded me, mine had a similar problem where it would tilt when a particular switch was hit. It turned out to be the small disk capacitor on the plumb bob. This post suggests can determine this in switch test - either way it sounds like you need to carefully go through switch diagnostics.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/now-i-have-a-frustrating-bally-switch-matrix-problem#post-2902985

#14 28 days ago

On Bally games nobody figured out for a long time how to wire a diode in series with a coin switch. That's why when one gets stuck it causes bizarre restart or tilt issues like this. Coin switches are part of the matrix, aren't we all , but not shown on the playfield schematic and look blank on the schematic.

#15 28 days ago
Quoted from BigAl56:

On Bally games nobody figured out for a long time how to wire a diode in series with a coin switch. That's why when one gets stuck it causes bizarre restart or tilt issues like this. Coin switches are part of the matrix, aren't we all , but not shown on the playfield schematic and look blank on the schematic.

I always thought that was odd there was no diodes on the coin switches. For sure those coin switches can get mangled and stuck always closed. Specially if someone hamfisted the switches trying to add credits manually.

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Sometimes I will write in the cabinet switches onto the playfield switch matrix chart when trying to figure out what the heck is causing a switch matrix problem. The strobe and return (I) numbers are the same even tho they go out two different mpu plugs.

Slam tilt looks like a reboot in many games. Some of the games with sound boards will play the tilt melody when slammed, but Im not sure if that applies to all games with a sound board. A Bally chimer will just straight up reboot when slammed. Which could be confused as a different problem than switch matrix.

#16 28 days ago

There were no diodes on the coin switches because nobody could figure out how to solder one on.
There is an unused NC contact on the coin microswitch. Somebody finally figured out you could solder a diode from the N/C to the common contact on the coin switch and have a diode in series to prevent issues like this. Not sure if they ever got around to implementing the idea in production.

#17 28 days ago

Interesting discussion. The Gold Ball cab wiring schematic shows isolation diodes on the coin switches and here's a photo of my machine so must have changed by 1983 (not shown on my earlier Vector). Pretty much all switches in the Gold Ball matrix are (or should be!) instantaneous (no drop targets etc) apart from "Outhole (regular)" and "Outhole - Gold Ball" so less opportunity for "phantom" closures.

mima have you checked switch diagnostics for any funnys?

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#18 27 days ago

mima
Have you been able to make any progress with this?

#19 25 days ago

No progress really so far, I haven't had tons of time. But I disconnected (desoldered) the coin switches for time being to see if I can isolate the issue. 10 test games or so later, the restart is still not present *thumbs up *, but time will tell. I have been lookin through the switches, and I found nothing obvious except possibly the center target. I noticed that the center 3 targets does not always register (hard and fast balls). should there be those ceramic caps (not in my game) ?
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#20 25 days ago
Quoted from mima:

should there be those ceramic caps (not in my game) ?

Yes, the gold bullseye and two switches next to it should have capacitors (0.047uF, 50volt or higher).

GoldBall_PlayfieldSwitchMatrix_Capacitors.jpg

#21 25 days ago

Thanks a lot! As you understand, my skills in wiring diagrams is limited. If I replace with any modern caps 0.047uF, 50volt or higher, what is the correct direction over the solder points ?
/mima

#22 25 days ago
Quoted from mima:

what is the correct direction over the solder points ?

Those ceramic disk capacitors are not directional so can be soldered either way around. Some capacitors (electrolytic and tantalum) are directional though and need to be soldered a certain direction - best to ask.

In terms of which tabs on the switch to solder the caps to, its the tabs that lead directly to the leafs that make actual contact when the switch closes. If you're not sure, post clear pictures of those switches and we'll point to the solder tabs. You might even notice leftover cut leads on the tabs where the original capacitors once were.

#23 25 days ago

Hi mima here's a pic from mine that might help. Your machine has little wear in that area - mine is hammered, I don't know why people aim at the centre target it's a drain monster.

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#24 22 days ago

I'm having a similar issue with my Elektra. Game plays a 4 player round just fine. ONLY on Ball 3. Gameplay switches to the lower playfield on the LAST PLAYER. If the right lower flipper is held and the ball hits the center left target, The game resets as if the credit button was pressed.
I've replaced diodes and caps on switches and credit button. Still has issue.

1 week later
#25 12 days ago

Minor update..
Been going through switch test over and over. Had the right center target intermittent locked on. which gave (when on) the right slingshot switches started a new credit (added a player to current game). Played a couple of credits, so far no game resets to player1 1st ball (need to play more credits to be certain that the issue is gone).

On the other issue, of poor response from the center targets. Of the outlined switches above, all has the capacitors on the switches but the 3 center targets.

When soldering on these to the switched, they becomes completely unresponsive. I am pretty sure that I have the right components and soldered to the right solder points on the switches.

(don't mind the poor soldering, it is just a quick job for testing)

Any suggestions?

cheers
/mima

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#26 12 days ago

Can you post a picture showing the actual capacitor markings and also a picture showing how that third switch is wired which we can't see?

What does switch test mode show when you press those three switches?

#27 11 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

Can you post a picture showing the actual capacitor markings and also a picture showing how that third switch is wired which we can't see?
What does switch test mode show when you press those three switches?

switch test says "closed" when caps installed.

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#28 11 days ago

The game seems to work pretty good now, without the caps. But as it plays fast, alot of the hits on the center target does not register. In this gameplay video from twenty minutes ago oddly enough the center target register most of the hits.

#29 11 days ago

Ok, those closeup pictures reveal that someone has pulled the switch stacks apart and put them back together incorrectly.
It looks to me like the two lugs that the little diodes are connected to have been sandwiched together in the switch stack when they should be separated by one of the bakelite spacers. In other words the diodes are shorted because the connections are together in the stack.

The rear leaf that has the switch contact should be in the same position as the shorter tensioner leaf that is currently in the middle of the stack.

Carefully inspect some other switches and look at the spacing in the stack between the two diode lugs and the tensioner leaf - you might see what I mean.

#30 11 days ago

some of the really cheap and small 473 ceramic caps will not last across switches in a Bally game. Its been a few years now but I had issues in a mata hari where caps like your picture would last one game to a one month before going close to short and making a pop bumper machine gun. I finally just left the cap off and made sure the pop bumper switch was adjusted well and its been fine for me. Stand up targets you probably want the cap on it tho.

If you think the cap is failing rapidly on you try a different capacitor type. Maybe a mylar cap or something will hold up better.... im not really sure tho.

#31 10 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

Ok, those closeup pictures reveal that someone has pulled the switch stacks apart and put them back together incorrectly.
It looks to me like the two lugs that the little diodes are connected to have been sandwiched together in the switch stack when they should be separated by one of the bakelite spacers. In other words the diodes are shorted because the connections are together in the stack.
The rear leaf that has the switch contact should be in the same position as the shorter tensioner leaf that is currently in the middle of the stack.
Carefully inspect some other switches and look at the spacing in the stack between the two diode lugs and the tensioner leaf - you might see what I mean.

Thanks!

Anyone who might want to assist with a close up on a correctly assembled switch stack?

#32 8 days ago

If no body responds with pictures, look at post #23 above by astyy which shows the centre target and look at your "1-2-3" three yellow standup target switches for more reference.

#33 7 days ago

mima I'm happy to provide more photo's if needed.

#34 6 days ago
Quoted from astyy:

mima I'm happy to provide more photo's if needed.

Thank you, that would be very helpful and a kind gesture.
It would be nice to see a clear sideways shot where its easy to make out the proper sandwich order of the switch stack.

#35 4 days ago

More reference photo's of central switch area.

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#36 1 day ago
Quoted from astyy:

More reference photo's of central switch area.
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Awesome thanks!

Update:
I still scratch my head!

The switches was in fact stacked wrong, and I adjusted the layering according to the images above.
They still register just fine (although not always) with out the caps, but with them soldered across the
two lugs om the long side of the switch they register closed at all time.
/Micael

#37 1 day ago

Post some clear pictures of how they're stacked now and where you are soldering the capacitors.

Also with one of those capacitors disconnected by one leg, put your multimeter in high resistance mode and tell us what resistance reading you get across both legs of the capacitor. You should get an instant reading of some sort that should then go open circuit. If you get a constant resistance reading across the cap it's likely faulty. When measuring, don't touch the meter tips with your fingers otherwise you will read resistance through your body.

#38 1 day ago

Ok, it makes no sense to me, but here's some new photos. as good as I can shoot.

All of the caps has one of the legs desoldered, but when I had them soldered in, it was across the two solder points on the side of the switches and neither leg was soldered to the back (bottom) solder point of the switch.

I also tested 6 new out of the bag caps in the same way. In ohm mode (both diode/continuity an high red instance getting the immediate result as shown (in DC volt mod, i got a 0.x vale that dropped over a few seconds.

/Micael
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#39 21 hours ago

When you're on high resistance mode (20M) you're not getting a reading across the capacitor which is correct.

However the switches still aren't stacked properly. The two lugs that the diode is soldered to needs a separator between them. You still have them sandwiched together causing the connected capacitor to make the switches appear as closed.

See this picture from astyy
.
GoldBall_SwitchStack2.jpg

This is your stack setup - you need to make this change on all three switches.
.
Goldball_LeafSwitches1.jpg

BTW, the pin header on the lamp board near the switches looks like it has a lot of cracked solder joints. You should resolder them all.
.
GoldBall_PlayfieldLampBoard1.jpg

#40 21 hours ago
Quoted from Quench:

When you're on high resistance mode (20M) you're not getting a reading across the capacitor which is correct.
However the switches still aren't stacked properly. The two lugs that the diode is soldered to needs a separator between them. You still have them sandwiched together causing the connected capacitor to make the switches appear as closed.
See this picture from astyy
.
[quoted image]
This is your stack setup - you need to make this change on all three switches.
.
[quoted image]
BTW, the pin header on the lamp board near the switches looks like it has a lot of cracked solder joints. You should resolder them all.
.
[quoted image]

Thank you for the patience and clarification. I feel really dumb for not seeing this. I'll try my best to stack according your schematics. But I always get distracted when I look at switch stacks. It is like I have dyslexia for me layering these (though I don't have that in the correct sense).

yes I will address those solder joints too, but I wanted to solve this issue first.

possibly a new update tomorrow.

Cheers
/Micael

#41 13 hours ago

Take your time, with a bit of patience you'll get there. I know these can be very fiddly to deal with especially when they're still connected in circuit.

BTW, the leaf that the actual round target is attached to needs to be bent forward a little so it sits tight against the front tensioner. The rear leaf with switch contact should also sit tight against its tensioner. Essentially when you adjust the switch gaps, you do it by slightly bending the tensioner.

Goldball_LeafSwitchesX1.jpg

#42 3 hours ago

Thanks for all the help and patience. I believe that we finally can call this issue solved and the game fixed. I feel like it now plays as intended, fast and evil.

Cheers
/Micael

#43 2 hours ago

Good work guys! Enjoy your game!

#44 1 hour ago
Quoted from mima:

I believe that we finally can call this issue solved and the game fixed.

Great stuff, your video brings back good memories - it's playing wicked fast.

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