(Topic ID: 156718)

Bally Flip Flop won't advance ball

By MotorCityMatt

8 years ago


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#1 8 years ago

This is driving me nuts, sometimes it advances the ball once the ball drains sometimes not. It is hit and miss. The manual says the outhole relay advances the coil on the ball count unit. I checked the relay, looks good, score motor swiches look good to. What am I missing here?

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#2 8 years ago

Hi Matt
Your description is not so good.
I show a 1-player-game, first ball is in play -> You make some points -> Ball-Index-Relay pulls and keeps-on pulling (does it in Your pin ?) -> You make some bonus -> You loose the ball -> ball rolls into the Outhole -> Bonus is counted down (does it in Your pin ?) -> (Alpha) the Outhole-Relay pulls and stay pulling for a while (does it in Your pin ?) -> Score-Motor starts and makes a turn (does it in Your pin ?) -> Ball-Count-Unit-Step-up Coil fires (Your pin: Sometimes) -> One Bonus is put on the Bonus-Ladder (does it in Your pin ?) -> ball is kicked-over to the Shooter-Alley (does it in Your pin ?).

In Your snippet of schema I show starting with "Alpha" -> green lines -> through many closed switches the Ball-Count-Unit-Step-up Coil is activated -> encircled-green -> Player-Reset-RELAY pulls and keeps-on pulling for a while. Through orange-lines (the Score-Motor is still turning) NOW the "Player(up)-Unit-RESET-Coil fires (not needed in a 1-player-game --- but this is done).
Then (not on the snippet): The turning score-Motor closes a switch -> through closed Switch on pulling Outhole-Relay -> one bonus is added and the ball is kicked-over to the Shooter-Alley.

Matt, WHERE in my description (through the steps) does Your fault show-up ?

Whenever I read "Sometimes it does - sometimes it doesn't": I assume "somewhere a wire has broken-off a solder-lug - wires are stiff, (broken-off) they stay in place - a bit of shaking / vibration -> wire moves a bit -> no connection -> -> -> shaking / vibration -> wire moves back -> connection again ... WHENEVER I LOOK AT A SWITCH / SOLDER-POINT: I do not only look at BUT I grab every wire and gently pull a bit -> Is the wire REALLY soldered-on.

IF (if) Your problem is (Outhole-Relay pulls / Score-Motor runs): I would FIRST check all solder-pionts and wires soldered-on --- taking the snippet of schema - following the green-line(s) - every switch with its wires. Greetings Rolf

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#3 8 years ago

Hi Rolf,
Yes to all your questions in paragraph one. I will check wires again, but did not notice a loose one when checking. Could the gap between the switches on score motor 3a be gapped to big? It seems something is just missing or not getting enough power when the ball count does not advance.
Thanks,
Matt

#4 8 years ago

Hi Matt
I - Rolf DO NOT LIKE working on Score-Motor-Switches - I do quite many tests -> ONLY when I am 100% sure "THIS SCORE-MOTOR-SWITCH IS BENT AND MUST BE ADJUSTED": THEN I work on that Switch. Other people may / do think different ...

So I would use Jumper-Wires (my "many tests" (((to make sure ...))) ).
In a 1-player-game the connection "Score-Motor-3A-side--wire-grey-red <-> Coil on Ball-Count-Unit-Step-up---side-wire-orange-white": This connection is "ALL THE TIME (((because ONLY ONE player plays))). I would establish a permanent Jumpering - "my light-blue line".
Maybe it is impossible to clip-on the Jumper-Wire at the "Solder-Lug SCM-3A-side-grey-red" (not enough room) -> so I would establish my "middle light,middle dark blue" permanent Jumper - clip-on at the "Coin-Unit-wire-grey-red". (((And I keep in mind: "The wire-grey-red is in my circuitry - if wire-grey-red itself is broken -> faults))).

If You want to look at SCM-3A -> let a friend help You. You establish two Jumper-Wires and take the other ends into the open. Your friend does handle the pin (imitating ball play / loosing ball (he places his finger in the Outhole and get kicked by the Kicker) - YOU have the two ends of these Jumper-Wires in Your hands -> at the time the Score-Motor turns -> You make a "grace shot" - holding the ends together for a short time - then let go - YOU ARE PART OF THE BRAIN OF THE PIN -> YOU do close SCM-3A at the right time.

Look at the schema and think "where can I set Jumper-Wires" - "what do I test with this setting" - "what does the result tells me" ... another specific test depending on the answer of "test-before". Greetings Rolf

P.S.: I said it in the beginning of this post - I say it again: I, Rolf, I do not like to work / testing on Score-Motor-Switches - other people very well "can / do have" another opinion.

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#5 8 years ago

I had this issue on my bally. It ended up being a broken solder joint on the score motor switch stack. They used large gauge wire as a bus between multiple contacts on the stack and the bottom one was broken. I noticed your switch in question is also on the bottom...

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-bow-and-arrow-ball-count-advancing-intermittently#post-2980072

9 months later
#6 7 years ago

Ok, still having this issue but I have narrowed it down a bit. This is the crazy part, I noticed that when I lose the ball on an even bonus number (2000, 4000, 6000) everything works correctly and the ball goes to the next one. If the bonus is a odd number (1000, 3000, 5000) everything works correct except the ball count will not fire and advance the ball. How the hell can this happen?

#7 7 years ago

Hi Matt
I have a vague theory. The topic is old - I kind of start at the beginning and ask: You play a ONE-Player-Game - You loose Ball-1 - does the Outhole-Relay pull-in, Ball-Index-Relay is pulling, Score-Motor turns, NO FIRING of Ball-Count-Unit-Step-UP, Player-Reset-Relay, Player-Up-Unit-Reset, Player-Up-Unit-Step-Up ? (((These words recall the JPG in post-4, green and orange-brown)))

The vague theory (my red star in JPG here) the Score-Motor-Switch-1F is faulty ALWAYS closed. And so the Outhole-Relay sometimes (odd numbers of bonus) gets activated too early compared with "even numbers do activate it at a good time".

Do not spend hours - the theory is vague, crummy --- do several times "even numbers" and look at the Score-Motor turning the bakelite wheels - also look at the Outhole-Relay pulling-in. I believe "even numbers" make the Outhole-Relay pull-in WHEN the Score-Motor is in HOME-Position (am I right ?).
Then do the faulty "odd numbers" - question: DOES the Outhole-Relay pull-in at "Score-Motor is in ANOTHER position" ?
IF (if) "ANOTHER position": Want to look at Score-Motor-Switch-1-F - does it TRUELY opens ?

I read the schematics (my JPG) as: "light-green" - "dark-green" - "light-blue" - "dark-blue".
The "Bonus-ZERO-Relay" pulls-in when the Bonus is counted down --- so Switch (my dark-blue star) is immediately thrown - BUT with an functioning SCM-1F (my red star): The Score-Motor must turn further - reaching "Home-Position" - THEN the Outhole-Relay shall pull-in.

Again - my theory is vague, crummy - do not spend hours - important is the answer to the question: Outhole-Relay pulls-in at Score-Motor-Position-XYZ. IS XYZ always "Home-Position of the Score-Motor" ? Greetings Rolf

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#8 7 years ago

Hi Matt
I believe there is a fault in the drawing "schematics" - in the JPG, post-7, on top, encircled dark-green, Switch on Bonus-Zero-Relay: I want this switch to be an "Normally-Closed-Switch" - so in the schematics the switch should be drawn with a dash through the switch.

An EASY way of testing my theory: Do NOT let the BALL roll-in into the Outhole. SIMULATE with Your finger: You put Your finger there - CLOSING the Outhole-Switch. AS SOON as the Bonus-Ladder starts stepping down: TAKE AWAY the finger - so the Outhole-Switch OPENS (a faulty-always-closed SCM-1F cannot harm - as the Outhole-Switch is OPEN).
WAIT until the Bonus-Ladder is stepped completely down and the Score-Motor has reached Zero-Position - THEN close the Outhole-Switch again with Your finger - THEN the Outhole-Relay is allowed to pull-in. Greetings Rolf

#9 7 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Matt
I believe there is a fault in the drawing "schematics" - in the JPG, post-7, on top, encircled dark-green, Switch on Bonus-Zero-Relay: I want this switch to be an "Normally-Closed-Switch" - so in the schematics the switch should be drawn with a dash through the switch.
An EASY way of testing my theory: Do NOT let the BALL roll-in into the Outhole. SIMULATE with Your finger: You put Your finger there - CLOSING the Outhole-Switch. AS SOON as the Bonus-Ladder starts stepping down: TAKE AWAY the finger - so the Outhole-Switch OPENS (a faulty-always-closed SCM-1F cannot harm - as the Outhole-Switch is OPEN).
WAIT until the Bonus-Ladder is stepped completely down and the Score-Motor has reached Zero-Position - THEN close the Outhole-Switch again with Your finger - THEN the Outhole-Relay is allowed to pull-in. Greetings Rolf

Outhole relay pulls in on this theory, odd or even bonus.

#10 7 years ago

Hi Matt
the theory is: "Switch-SCM-1F" is faulty-always-closed so the Outhole-Relay does pull-in at a "not correct time". The EASY way of testing takes advantage of the fact "when using a finger we can OPEN temporary "another switch in the circuitry" - I would like to read about the result of "EASY test", greetings Rolf

#11 7 years ago

Here is the issue during gameplay.

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