So, when you power on the machine and press the credit/replay button, the machine resets, all the score reels go to zero, but the score motor keeps running? But, if you push the reset relay by hand manually, the machine will reset and it will be ready to play at ball 1?

You'll need to first find what switches are sending power to the credit relay coil and score motor. Check the following switches:

Ball count unit zero switch - switch with gray/yellow wire and brown/red wire
Game over relay switch - switch with gray/yellow wire and brown/red wire
Player up unit zero switch - switch with gray/yellow wire and brown/red wire
Credit relay switch - switch with brown/red wire and green/yellow wire
Check for stuck coin switches on the coin door
Check the outhole switch on the playfield

Make sure the switches are clean and adjusted properly...

Hi, we may need a little more detail, but lets start here with the schematic (yes, you will need one), here's the relevant snippet from mine:

Capture (resized).JPG

So, if the score motor is running then one (hopefully just one) of the 13 switches (12 are on relays, one is on the score motor, 1G) is closed.

You mention the Reset Relay..do you suspect this one, as if that relay is held closed, then the switch on it that has White wire and a Red wire with Yellow trace would be closed and cause the motor to run.

However, that may be a red-herring and you manually activating the relay switch is just over-riding what ever switch is causing the motor to run.

So, my advice:

1. Can you articulate the exact order, meaning, what happens when you power on the machine, and press the credit button (do score reels reset, does the ball get ejected, etc and then the motor continues to run?)
2. When then motor is running (dont leave it too long running, its not designed for continuous use) is the Reset relay activated?
3. If not, then you need to start looking/eliminating the 13 switches. I would do this by cutting up a business card into strips and poke them between the switches, starting with that one on Reset
4. Report back

Good luck!!

Ah, Fred posted just before me...luckily are messages are similar!

There are 18 switches that feed that Green&Blue wire on the Reset relay. 16 of them are on the score reels (4 players * 4 reels/player), one is on the Bonus relay, and one is on the motor at position 8E. All 18 have a Green&Blue wire on one connection and a Yellow wire on the other connection. (see attached schematic fragment)
With that said, do all 17 stepper units advance correctly when their solenoids are activated? You can check that with the game unplugged by carefully moving each solenoid plunger with your finger.

Pinball (resized).png

If the reset relay is always energized, we can see from the schematic segment posted by 4Max that there is a reset relay switch in the score motor circuit. If this reset relay switch is always closed, the score motor will constantly run. That reset relay switch is controlled by the reset relay coil. So we would need to see how power gets to the reset relay coil.

Next, looking at the schematic segment posted by HowardR , you'll see the circuits for the reset relay coil. The following switches can send power to the reset relay coil:

Drum units zero position switches
Bonus zero relay switch
Score motor 8E
Reset relay switch
Game over relay switch
Coin relay switch

So, we would have to check if one of the normally open switches is in the closed position and/or mis-adjusted. Check the following:

Drum units zero position switches (16) - switches with yellow wire and green/black wire
Bonus zero relay switch - switch with yellow wire and green/black wire
Game over relay switch - switch with green/black wire and black/yellow wire
Coin relay switch - switch with black/yellow wire and orange/red wire

We know the reset relay switch in that circuit will already be closed, because the reset relay coil is energized, and score motor switch 8E is normally closed. See if you can find any problems with those 19 switches in the reset relay coil circuits...

The original question was how to troubleshoot a continuous running score motor. To help you, it's important that we accurately know what you're doing so I assume you put business cards in the score UNIT switches, not the score MOTOR switches.

Putting business cards in switches is part of a thorough methodical approach to this kind of problem, so good job so far.

Did the score motor stop running with those business cards in the score unit switches? If so, you can remove one business card at a time and see whether the score motor keeps running after reset. If you find the symptom comes back after removing a particular business card, that switch is probably out of adjustment.

The next thing I would do is reset and while the score motor is running, put a business card in 8E. If that stops the score motor, take that 8E card out and reset. Watch the 8E switch closely. Most likely it's stuck closed all the time.

Is the reset relay still energized even with the card in 8E?

If so, there are 18 switches, any of which can keep the reset relay energized. All have Green&Black to Yellow wires. The relevant schematic fragment is in my post #7 above. 16 are on the score reels, which you already put cards in. Another is on motor 8E, also a card doesn't stop the motor from running. The last is on the Bonus Zero relay. If you reset and then put cards in all 18, the reset relay should de-energize.

Or we could do a video phone call. I've used WhatsApp before.

I'd still double check the following switches to see if they are mis-adjusted or shorting:

Game over relay switch - switch with green/black wire and black/yellow wire
Coin relay switch - switch with black/yellow wire and orange/red wire

Another possibility might be a short in one of the switch stacks... To check this, put tape or put a card between all the switches that send power to the reset relay coil. If the score motor continues to run after you tape/card all the switches, then you'll know there is a short in one of the switches that sends power to the reset relay coil...

Yep, that's annoying, and does not make sense at this stage.

One thing, PBD1961, when you said this, how did you do it..I've never actually tried to pull an actuator away from a charged coil but I would think its tough (and a little dangerous voltage-wise), and snaps straight back?

(Not sure it helps, but just want to explore every angle)

As for score motor switch leads, can you take a better resolution photo that highlights wire colors and location? I doubt if its related to this issue, but worth exploring. I looked at my FF and the top switch on my stack 3 is devoid of wires - strange, but they are not "snipped".

athe 2 wires and unused switchs at the score motor,
i would think ya better start there...

they arent there for no reason

If you put cards between all 16 zero position switches on the score reel units, and you've put a card in score motor switch 8E, power would be passing through the bonus zero relay switch. When you start a game, is the bonus zero relay switch coil activated?

I'm still thinking there might be an internal short in a switch stack. You can prove this by blocking the first switches in the three circuits that supply power to the reset relay coil. Put a card or tape on the following switches:

Drum units zero position switches (16) - switches with yellow wire and green/black wire
Bonus zero relay switch - switch with yellow wire and green/black wire
Score motor switch 8E - switch with yellow wire and green/black wire

If all these switches are blocked and the reset relay coil is still activated, then there is most likely a short in one of the score reel/drum unit zero position switches, or the bonus zero relay switch. If the score motor stops, then there is an adjustment issue on one of the switches.

Scour your schematic to find out what the two unknown wires are for. If you can determine the color code on the wires, you should be able to find it on the schematic.

Ah yes, ok, that makes sense because once the relay is energized it, it is kept in place by a switch in its own stack (until score motor turns to release 8E), see my badly drawn red line here:

Capture (resized).JPG

So, I agree with Fred - something is still making the circuit.

Fred/others - what about pulling the jones plugs from the backbox? Does that work as a test - I mean of course it would isolate the 16 score reel switches but would it bring in other variables? If not, that may be a way to at least isolate if it the score reels, or the Bonus Zero or 8E (I too lean towards the score reels simply because there are 16 and they are fiddly)

Assume you already know there is a copy on IPDB. And, apologies if you know this already, but, you would be looking for wires either side of a score motor switch with colors that match your snipped ones, for example:
Capture1 (resized).JPG

in the above example, score motor swtich 3B (third cam, second switch counting from bottom) has a Orange with Black trace wire (78-7, dont worry about the -7 for now) and a White with Brown trace (56).

the color coding is on the schematic, here:

Capture2 (resized).JPG
Don't worry, between us we'll fix it - FF is a great game, I love mine!

Note that it is common on Bally EM'a to have unused wires at the score motor. Their wiring harnesses were sort of universal.
See if you can find another pinsider with a flip flop & compare with his. My Old Chicago has several unused wires bundled next to the score motor.

You can test the coil with a 9 volt battery. Turn off the power to the machine, get a fresh 9 volt battery and place the terminals of the battery onto the wire lugs of the coil. The coil should be energized when you connect the battery to the coil and the plate will pull in. When you remove the battery, the plate should release. If you remove the battery and the plate is still pulled to the coil, then the coil is magnetized...

Never thought of that trick.... good one! Magnetized plates are a pain in the butt

Hi Pinballdad1961 +
4Max suggested (post-25): "Unplug the Jones-Plugs connecting the Backbox and the Cabinet - what happens ?".
In post-27 You write "have disconnected the 3 Backbox Jones-Plugs and nothing happened" --- what is "nothing" ?
Is it "Reset-Relay still stays constantly pulling" ? (((No change in pins reaction)))
Is it "Reset-Relay does not stay pulling" ? (((No more pulling of the relay)))

The ipdb-schematics at -A/B-37,38 inform us: Jones-Plug-20 is a 2 times 10 plug, Jones-Plug-18 is an two times 9 plug, Jones-Plug-16 is a two times 8 plug. I see on the Jones-Plug-18 the interesting wire of color-48-8-green-black. You unplug only the Jones-Plug-18 --- or maybe (for troubleshooting): ONLY unsolder wire-48-8 - unsolder away from the socket (much easyer to unsolder it from the socket) --- and what is the pin doing ?

How comes You ask about a "magnetized coil" ? Greetings Rolf

Yep, I use that 9v test to ensure a coil is at least vaguely working

I guess another test in this situation would simply to power off the machine while the score motor is turning - that would cut all power, including the reset relay - if its still pulled in, its magnetized. Easy to fix, but personally I still think its somewhere else...

I'm still basing this troubleshooting on the fact that one of the reset relay switches is closed and it's sending power to the score motor.

If you put a card in score motor switch 8E at start up and that stopped the score motor, then you can rule out the 16 score reel/drum unit zero position switches, and the bonus zero relay switch...

The next switch in the circuit that would send power to the reset relay coil would be the game over relay switch. When the game is resetting is the game over relay coil energized? Look at the switch on the game over relay with the green/black wire and black/yellow wire. Is this switch open or closed when the machine is resetting?

That game over switch is a gateway switch where multiple circuits meet up. If power can't get through that game over relay switch, then power cannot get to the reset relay coil.

There might be an internal short in the switch stack of the game over relay switch or the reset relay switch.

To see if there is an internal short in the game over relay switch, disconnect the green/black wire from the game over relay switch and then try to reset the machine. If nothing happens, try to manually active the reset relay...

Were you able to look at that game over relay switch? I'm still thinking there might be a short in that game over relay switch stack. You might want to take the switch stack apart and check the condition of the screw sleeves. Sometimes the sleeves can break and then the screws will make a bridge between the switch blades...

You also might want to check and confirm the reset relay coil is still the cause of this issue. Just place a card or tape the switch contact with the white wire and the red/yellow wire on the reset relay. This should stop the score motor from running...

Do you have a meter that checks continuity? Here is what I would do.
Attach one lead of your meter to the score motor connecton- the actual motor itself. Then slowly and methodically test each switch that goes to the start motor with the other lead. Test at the soldered end of the switch. Check each open and closed. It may help to have the score reel resets open. If the switch is open only one side sould have continuity back to the motor. Do this test with machine unpluged!

I have seen were stack switches are assembled wrong- they look open but are making contact near the screws.
I have made a long lead wire with a aligator clip for this type of trouble shooting. Clip it to the motor. It also is nice if your meter is one that beeps.
Hope this makes sense.
Good luck

OK Daddios, I am reviving this old thread because I am dealing with the exact same issue right now. I have the schematic, and I have gone through everything above. When you press the credit button, the game resets everything as intended: all score reels at zero with switched open, bonus counts down if there is any, etc. But the score motor just keeps chugging. As with the OP, if I manually disengage the reset relay, you can play a normal game (I'm pretty sure - there might still be an issue with the ball count unit, but I manually made sure that was in game start position).

So. I have checked every switch that makes the score motor run (first pencil circle on schema). They all are gapped and open/close properly. I then tried turning on the game, but before starting a game, I manually tripped every relay that runs the score motor. Most ran it and then it stopped. However, when I trip the reset relay the endless motor running begins. Ok that makes sense. The same thing happens when I trip the coin unit. ruunrunrun. The start up sequence in the manual sez that the coin relay trips the reset relay, so that makes sense, so WTF?

I checked 8e on the score motor. Fine, I checked 1g on the score motor (connected to the coin relay). Fine.

As the OP said: This thing is killing me!!!!
Help!

PXL_20210708_195212443_2 (resized).jpg

One more bit of info (also for a bump): When I remove the middle Jones plug, it stops the score motor.

See my post above: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-flip-flop-reset-issue#post-3729295

If the Reset relay doesn't deactivate at the end of the reset cycle, check that these 18 switches are all opening

For a switch to work 3 things are necessary:
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points (duh)
2) When closing, the long blade's contact point should push the short blade's contact point enough to move the short blade
3) The contact points should be clean, which they usually will be if #2 is happening

pasted_image (resized).png

Yep. Did that. Cleaned that. Gapped that. All 18.

Every single one opens as intended. Next time I'm out there I can take video. I business carded all of them one by one too.

Does it?

It does not. I have to push it manually to stop the score motor and start a game. I really have done every single thing you and the other helpful dudes have suggested. I also checked all the switches that run the score motor.

As the OP also said, this thing is killing me.

I do have a question regarding that part of the schematic. When I close the coin relay switch, the reset relay trips. That's what the manual says is the start up[ sequence. Could my issue be there?

Also, I know the bonus unit is supposed to increment from zero to one at the beginning of a ball. That is supposed to happen AFTER the reset sequence is through, right?

Thanks for your patience.

What happens if you "business card" them all at the same time together?

That's going to be one of my next plays when I go over there again on Tuesday. I was just hoping for a back up plan in case... trying not to make make too many separate trips. Thanks for sticking with me.