(Topic ID: 242937)

Bally Flip Flop flip flag relays staying locked


By dirtymike

67 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 17 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 66 days ago by dirtymike
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    #1 67 days ago

    First off I’d like to say that this site has been a god send with helping me diagnose most of the problems with some of my pinballs. I’m just learning how to work on them and not very good with the schematics yet. Thank you

    Now the issue. When you first hit the target (red ones not the roll over ones) the relay sticks on keeping everything energized even the chime knocker. Doesn’t matter what one you hit the relay will stick on. Then when trying to reset they just go crazy flip flopping all over ( no pun intended). All the relays appear to be fairly new and the game is pretty clean underneath. Once the relay is on you can no longer score points with the targets. Hoping someone else has had this issue. Thanks in advance

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    #2 67 days ago
    Quoted from dirtymike:

    When you first hit the target (red ones not the roll over ones) the relay sticks on keeping everything energized

    I think you have a short in this area.

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    #3 67 days ago
    Quoted from dirtymike:

    When you first hit the target (red ones not the
    roll over ones) the relay sticks on keeping everything energized
    even the chime knocker. Doesn’t matter what one you hit the relay
    will stick on.

    You didn't mention which relays stick on. There are four Target relays and four Flip relays and four Flip solenoids for example. I'll guess that your Target relays stick on. If that's the case, they should stay on until the Bonus Unit advances and the advance arm on the Bonus Unit opens it's End Of Stroke (EOS) switch in the red box:
    Flip Flop Target relays (resized).jpg
    If your EOS switch doesn't open, the Target relays will keep waiting until it does. It's how the circuit waits for feedback that the job has been done.

    /Mark

    #4 67 days ago

    All the relays associated after the target relays are hit stay on, even the 1000 point relay stays on and the coil stays energized for the chime as well. When I pullup on the mushroom bumper to reset them they just non stop flip back and forth. The target relays are the ones that I believe stick on as it doesn't do it when you hit the rollovers to flip the flags. Thanks for the image of the schematics, the game never came with any and couldn't really read the one online once I zoomed in. I'm going to have another look today hopefully. I'm very green in repairing pins this being only the second one I've attempted. This one caught me off guard as the game was playing mint, wasn't moved or anything, suddenly flags went nuts and now this issue.

    #5 67 days ago
    Quoted from dirtymike:

    All the relays associated after the target relays are hit stay on, even the 1000 point relay stays on and the coil stays energized for the chime as well. When I pullup on the mushroom bumper to reset them they just non stop flip back and forth.

    It's good to give lots of info right off the bat. This still sounds like a short to me. Check the mushroom bumper circuit. "SCM" = score motor, and the lettering starts at the bottom of the stack.

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    #6 66 days ago

    Currieddog, I just read this so I haven't checked the score motor yet but with just some manipulating by hand I found that no matter what target relay you hit it stays energized. The flip relays all seem to click off when flipped back but if you try to flip the original relay that was tripped it just flips it back over. it will not allow that flag to reset as its still energized. The relays usually close then open back up allowing you to score addition points when you hit the targets. This is no longer able to happen. The mushroom bumpers appear to be doing their job and try and reset all the flags but because the one will still be energized it can not. Also it doesn't matter witch target you hit first, 1-4 all do same thing and stay on. I don't know the proper terminology so its hard for me to explain I apologize and thank you in advance for your patience. Also all the coils are reading good on my meter and all wires are attached and appear at a glance to be good.

    #7 66 days ago

    OK, refer to the schematic snippets that MarkG and I posted in 2 and 3 and look for shorts; solder drips, exposed wires touching when relay is energized, something loose, etc. You have to stick your face right in and poke around. I'm thinking short in that area because the RO switches don't cause the same problem, even though they're tied in at a lower part. The snippet below shows the RO switches going into the Target relays.
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    #8 66 days ago

    ok so I've narrowed it down to the bonus unit. When I trip the target manually I noticed the bonus unit did not move. When I manually move the bonus unit the relays flip and everything de-energizes. I don't see any shorts as of yet but will continue to look as I trouble shoot why the bonus unit is not firing. It resets fine when I manually move it up then drain ball. Just doesn't advance. I'm half bald from pulling out my hair and all I can smell is old em smell from having my face in here for so long haha. I'm also in the process of ordering a schematic for this game.

    #9 66 days ago

    Also thanks MarkG for mentioning the bonus unit I would have never checked it if you did not mention it or send the copy of schematics. Currieddog and MarkG have helped a lot. Thank you very much.

    The bonus unit seems to be moving freely so its something electrical and not just a seized unit. I will keep you posted and any other words of wisdom are much appreciated.

    #11 66 days ago
    Quoted from dirtymike:

    Thanks for the image of the schematics, the game never came with any and couldn't really read the one online once I zoomed in.

    I used the schematics on ipdb.org. If they're not clear when you enlarge them you might try another .pdf file reader.

    Quoted from dirtymike:

    ok so I've narrowed it down to the bonus unit. When I trip the target manually I noticed the bonus unit did not move.

    There are three main paths into the Bonus Unit step up solenoid as shown in the first schematic in reply #5. But if the Bonus Unit never advances chances are that the problem is between the wires that attach to the solenoid solder lugs (blue-red and red-white).

    If you have a meter, set it to the lowest resistance setting and with the power off, clip one lead to the blue-red wire on any of the four target relay switches. Clip the other lead to the red-white wire on the Bonus Unit step up solenoid solder lug. This will allow you to measure the resistance through some of the wiring and through the step up solenoid. What resistance do you measure? I'd expect roughly 10 ohms.

    #12 66 days ago

    Yes the resistance is about 10.5

    #13 66 days ago

    That should indicate that the solenoid isn't bad. There's not much else going on in the Bonus Unit step up circuit. If you use an alligator clip test lead and briefly short the blue-red wire to the yellow wire on the either side of the four Target relay switches, does the step up solenoid fire? Beware that you're messing with 50 volts AC here so if you're not comfortable with that we'll find another way.

    #14 66 days ago

    No nothing seems to get the bonus unit solenoid to fire. If I manually push it it goes through the motions lighting up the bonuses then when I simulate the ball sinking it was counting down normal now seems to only add every other 1000 points to the score. So for 2000 points it only adds 1000. Not sure if this is because of first problem or a whole new one.

    #15 66 days ago

    I have also noticed when starting a new game the bonus unit no longer lights up the 1000 point to start.

    #16 66 days ago
    Quoted from dirtymike:

    No nothing seems to get the bonus unit solenoid to fire.

    Check p.12 of the manual for the bonus unit cycle: https://www.ipdb.org/files/889/Bally_1976_Flip_Flop_Manual.pdf

    #17 66 days ago

    Well it’s working again. Not going to lie I have no idea what I did to fix it. I removed the playfield and cleaned the outhole, bonus 0, bonus count relays. Reattached playfield and it started working but then it kept cycling through all 4 players and stayed on ball one player 4 and never stopped. Read a forum from 6 years ago about this problem and cleaned the relays mentioned in that one and still didn’t really fix anything. Started manually checking relays and suddenly it started working again. There is something not quite engaging but as long as it works for the long weekend with company over I can start cleaning it immediately after. I purchased a tune up kit.

    Thanks for all the help markG and currieddog. Wish I could tell people what I did to fix it in case they have same issue but really I’m at a loss here. I have no idea other than fumbled around till it worked haha.

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