(Topic ID: 77712)

Bally Flash Gordon Strange Attract Mode Behavior

By jhend1000

10 years ago


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There are 59 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 10 years ago

Hello Pinsiders, I recently acquired a Bally Flash Gordon that I've been bringing back to life slowly. Recently, I replaced several parts on the MPU board to get it to finally boot up with all 7 flashes into attract mode. The issue now is I can't start a game or add credits with the coin switches. It also flashes a lot of the feature lamps at the wrong time after it has been on for a while (for instance the TILT light and the credit light on the apron will flash randomly...) The fish paper behind on the contacts for the start button appear to be intact. There is nothing displayed in the credit display but there is a single zero in the ball in play display. The ball in play light is always turned on as well. Anyone know what this issue might be?

Thanks!

#2 10 years ago

Also, keep in mind that for some reason I can't get any solenoids to work except for the knocker and the lockout coil in the coin door; even in test mode...

#3 10 years ago

I believe there is a fuse on the bottom side of the PF that protects the solenoids. If that's blown check for coil problems. If you turn the game on and a coil locks on turn it off right away and fix.

#4 10 years ago

Hi superchicken, thanks for the reply! Is this fuse on the PF itself or on the rectifier board? If it's on the rectifier board then I believe it's fine for I tested it myself. Would this cause the machine not to start a game? It now shows that there is 1 credit in the credit display unlike before when I posted earlier, (issue was fixed by replacing resistors,) but still nothing when I press the start button...

#5 10 years ago

Check your ball trough switches in test mode. Are those working fine?

I believe the fuse Superchicken mentioned is on the bottom of the playfield. If that is blown then no coils would fire on the playfield.

#6 10 years ago
Quoted from Spybryon:

I believe the fuse Superchicken mentioned is on the bottom of the playfield. If that is blown then no coils would fire on the playfield.

Yes, there is a 1 amp slow blow fuse on the bottom of the playfield. If it's blown, there probably is a reason.

#7 10 years ago

Your switch issues could be related to the header pins / connectors on the right side of the MPU. You may have cold solder joints on the MPU or bad connections between the header pins and the molex pins inside the connectors. You can isolate this some by wiggling the connectors back and forth slightly, then trying the credit/coin buttons again. Bottom right connector on the mpu is cabinet switches, the top right connector is playfield switches.

For the lamp's flashing on/off randomly.. you'll probably want to remove the lamp driver board (under the mpu) from the game. That board almost ALWAYS has cold solder joints at some of the header pins (ie. cracked solder joints around the pins on the back of the board where the solder joints are). This will cause flickering or lamps that work sometimes but not other times.. as the board expands and contracts from the heat. You'll want to check that board and fix any cracked/cold solder joints by reflowing the solder (at the very least). The best thing to do is first clean the joint with rubbing alcohol, then use a solder sucker or desoldering gun and remove the existing solder, then add new solder. If you can't do board work.. you would need to find someone that can help you with that.

Not 100% sure what might be happening with your credit display. There's a DIP switch setting for showing credits (check your game manual or IPDB.org link to manual if you don't have a manual). Odd that it's showing ball in play as zero and the ball in play light always on. This is in attract mode? I'm not sure if that kind of behavior could be bad 5101 RAM or not... weird things can happen when the 5101 is partially bad so it's a good idea to have an extra known-good memory to swap in there. It could be some of your issues are related to that too. If the board had corrosion and it wasn't all cleaned up that could also cause odd problems.

#8 10 years ago

Hi all, thanks for the replies! There might be a spot where a fuse might go underneath the lower playfield. I don't see one there. I have seen these fuses before on some of my Williams games though so we may be on to something for sure. I'll send pictures on this later when I get home. As far as the credit display goes it is working now, I had to re-flow solder on all the joints (a little overkill XD) and replaced the 100K ohm resistors. I'll try to re-flow the solder on the lamp driver board later also. Is there a way to test the 5101 ram with a dmm?

#9 10 years ago
Quoted from jhend1000:

As far as the credit display goes it is working now, I had to re-flow solder on all the joints (a little overkill XD) and replaced the 100K ohm resistors. I'll try to re-flow the solder on the lamp driver board later also. Is there a way to test the 5101 ram with a dmm?

Does the credit display still show a "0" for ball-in-play or is that now fixed? Maybe it's just some bad solder joints on the boards.

You can't really test a 5101 RAM with a DMM unfortunately. There's a very handy tester that David Hoffman built available on his website at http://www.neoloch.com for about $30 that can test 5101, 6264 and 6116 RAM (this covers the 3 common types of RAM used in pinball machines). If you're handy with a soldering iron you can buy a kit too, so you have something to build and get better at soldering & a useful tool in the end. The RAM tester writes and reads data to each memory location to fully test the memory. That's why trying to check it like a logic chip with the DMM won't work.. you aren't really testing much on it. Anyway, if you have other 5101 RAM and can try that usually that works well enough, but if you're fixing up a few machines these testers start paying for themselves in time savings rather quick.

#10 10 years ago

It could also just be garbage data in the 5101 as well. Reset each audit field via the 3rd coin switch on the door or by the momentary switch on the mpu.

#11 10 years ago

Xenon75, is there an adjustment that lets you just reset to defaults or do they all have to be redone manualy?

#12 10 years ago

Update, I'm missing the fuse and the holder... I'll take care of that asap. The guy I got it from told me that they went to the flippers He had blue hair so...

#13 10 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

Does the credit display still show a "0" for ball-in-play or is that now fixed? Maybe it's just some bad solder joints on the boards.

This is fixed completely I think... Ball-In-Play is 0 and credit window says I have 3 credits maybe...

#14 10 years ago
Quoted from jhend1000:

Xenon75, is there an adjustment that lets you just reset to defaults or do they all have to be redone manualy?

Manual reset per each audit/setting. The downside of these older games, but once they're set then they're good until the battery dies. Check the manual for audit/adjust settings and their corresponding number.. some games need specific settings for sound (or you might lose background sound, speech, etc) and it's a good time to set high scores, while you're clearing them too. Any time you're replacing a dead battery or setting up a board that didn't have a battery on it, the 5101 *WILL* put junk values in these settings as early Bally/Stern boards don't try and detect valid data on the 5101 and clear it if it's corrupt. I don't think there's any type of verification of good data on the 5101.. just some test routines when the board boots up that read current data off the 5101, write test data, read test data, then replace with the original data that was on the 5101.

#15 10 years ago

In Bally's you have to manually zero (and optionally set your desired highscore thresholds) each audit setting.

#16 10 years ago
Quoted from jhend1000:

Update, I'm missing the fuse and the holder... I'll take care of that asap. The guy I got it from told me that they went to the flippers He had blue hair so...

I think the fuse on the playfield is for the flippers only. The rest of the coils get their power through the fuse on the power supply board. Follow the wire and you should see the brown wire from where the fuse holder should be to the right flipper coil.

I am at work so, that is all from memory, so I may be wrong......

#17 10 years ago

I think the fuse holder gets +43 vdc power from the flippers (up stream, brown wire) and the other side of the holder connects a yellow wire feeding the solenoids.

#18 10 years ago

Bit rot in the ROMs?

#19 10 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

Manual reset per each audit/setting. The downside of these older games, but once they're set then they're good until the battery dies. Check the manual for audit/adjust settings and their corresponding number.. some games need specific settings for sound (or you might lose background sound, speech, etc) and it's a good time to set high scores, while you're clearing them too. Any time you're replacing a dead battery or setting up a board that didn't have a battery on it, the 5101 *WILL* put junk values in these settings as early Bally/Stern boards don't try and detect valid data on the 5101 and clear it if it's corrupt. I don't think there's any type of verification of good data on the 5101.. just some test routines when the board boots up that read current data off the 5101, write test data, read test data, then replace with the original data that was on the 5101.

Ok I'll take care of this when I get the chance. I believe that the second owner told me that the first owner changed the battery before he (second owner) owned the machine. That might explain why the game is doing such strange things.

Quoted from Superchicken:

I think the fuse holder gets +43 vdc power from the flippers (up stream, brown wire) and the other side of the holder connects a yellow wire feeding the solenoids.

I noticed these two wires are just loosely hanging there... the fuse and the holder are missing all together so I'll install that when I get the chance also.

Quoted from MTPPC:

Bit rot in the ROMs?

I doubt it is the ROMs because I recently replaced the old ROMs with new ones which didn't really change anything. Sockets are good too. Thanks for the suggestion though!

#20 10 years ago

Update: with new fuse and holder, solenoids are working correctly.

I'll post what happens after going through the adjustments

#21 10 years ago

Ok just one thing... can someone explain to me how the bally adjustments work? Is it basically setting all the dip switches? Do I set the switches when the game is powered up?

#22 10 years ago
Quoted from jhend1000:

Ok just one thing... can someone explain to me how the bally adjustments work? Is it basically setting all the dip switches? Do I set the switches when the game is powered up?

There are both dip switch adjustments (read when board is powered up) and adjustments via the self test button. Manual should explain each in detail, they don't overlap.

#23 10 years ago

oh ok... makes sense. Do you think the 5101 has garbled up data from both?

#24 10 years ago

Make sure the game is off before changing the dip switches.

#25 10 years ago
Quoted from Superchicken:

Make sure the game is off before changing the dip switches.

Yeah, that's what I thought.... I must have read something wrong in the manual.

#26 10 years ago

Ok, I've been studying the manual for a while now and it doesn't seem to explain how to clear out the audits... Is it like the Williams games where you use the start button to change the audit adjustments or is there something else you have to do? As of now I can't get the start button to do anything whatsoever. Haven't quite gotten around to the DIP switches yet.

#27 10 years ago

Nevermind I figured it out.. switch 33. Only question is where is this button at?

#28 10 years ago
Quoted from jhend1000:

Nevermind I figured it out.. switch 33. Only question is where is this button at?

on the coin door. you have to go through all the adjustments until you get to 33. Make sure your battery is up to date or you'll have to do it again next time you shut it off.

#29 10 years ago

I thought that the adjustments only went up to 19... At 19 if I press the red test switch again, it reboots into attract mode as stated in the manual... So what is it I'm doing wrong?

#30 10 years ago

Switch 33 is the reset button on the MPU. When setting '04' shows up on the credit display, push S33.

I still think you need to actually set the high score levels for '01' through '03'.

#31 10 years ago

ok so the button is on the MPU board itself?

#32 10 years ago

Well, I've cleared the audits and adjusted the DIP switches to my liking (all were originally turned on except for #16...) but I still haven't gotten anything. The current CMOS chip at U8 is made by Toshiba if that makes a difference. I have noticed that when I first put the MPU board back in the game, when I hit a cabinet switch of any kind, the game crashes. This happened to me after replacing the ROMs and was fixed by re-seating connectors. After adjusting the DIP switch settings, the game worked as before until I pressed the start button and as soon as I pressed it, it crashed and started doing very strange things... I eventually got it back to working okay. The game however placed some more random audit values in the cmos as before and I cleared them out once again and still nothing. Does anyone think that replacing the 5101 at U8 along with re-flowing solder at the header pins on the MPU board might fix this?

#33 10 years ago

What were the random audit values? A partially bad 5101 RAM can be a real headache to deal with. Unless you have a RAM tester or known-good memory to swap-out, you'll be chasing your tail until you've ruled out the 5101 if there's possible memory corruption occurring. If it was me, I'd invest in some type of RAM replacement and rule that out. I've learned my lesson time and time again with classic Bally/Stern boards to not trust the 5101 RAM and have extra memory around to immediately swap in when the machine is acting funky.

At this point, IMO your options are to spend $30 on a RAM tester from http://www.neoloch.com if you want to be able to test your own RAM (incredible deal for troubleshooting) ~OR~ spend anywhere between $5 and $40 on a RAM replacement that you can swap into your board. The RAM tester will come in handy in the future if you will be staying in the hobby for a while and will quickly pay for itself in time savings. You will VERY likely be buying a new RAM chip as well if once you test your RAM it checks out bad.

So that leads to the 2nd option.. trying a new RAM IC. I'd encourage you to buy a compatible RAM adapter INSTEAD of buying another genuine 5101 RAM. The 5101 itself is very static sensitive and they're $5-8 usually + shipping for one chip.. so if you need to buy new memory you really can't justify the cost if you can't luck into a deal where you can buy 10x or so 5101 RAM at a time for a few bucks a piece. It's just not worth buying a single 5101 RAM IC and spending $10 total, to then zap it while you're using it for testing and be in the same boat again. There are many replacement adapters available that adapt much less static-sensitive RAM to a 5101 pinout, including RAM adapters that use a lithium coin cell or memory capacitor and adapt 6264 low-power RAM to 5101 pinout and NVRAM that won't require any batteries on the MPU.

Here are just a few options for 5101 RAM adapters:
http://www.pinitech.com/products/5101_budget_ram.php (6264 RAM adapter)
http://www.pinforge.com/ (NVRAM)
http://lockwhenlit.com/anyPin.htm (NVRAM)

I'm sure there are others too, Tom Callahan (Pin-Logic) used to produce a few adapters but he is recently out of the pinball parts business after 50 yrs. Just so you're aware, the Pinitech adapters are mine & are available in kit form if you want to save a few dollars and don't mind soldering. The other links are for NVRAM adapters that will rid you of batteries completely made by various pinball enthusiasts. All are excellent options and would provide a much more rugged RAM for use when troubleshooting machines since they have machine pin strips instead of the frail IC legs.

Hope that helps, not trying to steer you clear from continuing to try and troubleshoot without putting out any money, but if you'll be messing around with similar machines in the future.. a RAM tester and/or one of those 5101 RAM adapters will help immensely. I've learned over the years that test equipment or something I know is good that I can swap in/out easily is well worth the price over hours and hours of wondering what that little black box is doing.

#34 10 years ago

Check temp of your chips too while it's running.. if any of the cpu, eproms, etc get hot enough you can't keep your finger on them for very long then suspect that chip. You said you replaced the eproms, so likely not those. I had some boards crash because the cpu was bad and it was very apparent when checking the temperature of the cpu.. it would heat up within a minute or two and become too hot to the touch. You can't find every bad chip like this, but it's something to check. Anyway your audits getting corrupted seem to point to a RAM issue, but depends on what is happening exactly.

Unfortunately all you can do is isolate until the problem is found. Could it be memory causing all your issues? Possibly.. could it be 3 or 5 other things? Sure. Maybe the capacitors producing the +5vdc for logic power are going bad (verifiable by checking AC versus DC readings on the +5v test point on the mpu). Maybe you have a bad cpu chip. Spare boards and components help tremendously in isolating the issue. If you continue fixing up machines it's VERY wise to get a few spare working boards of whatever type of machines you're working on.. could be brand new replacements or something others have fixed up, or buy some AS-IS boards and fix them up yourself so you have a spare. Unfortunately that's just the nature of the beast.. the people that are able to quickly repair boards and machines as a hobby or business have the right equipment, technique and spare components/boards to make it easier to isolate and drill down to the problem quickly. Without spares, without tools.. anyone would have a difficult time wondering what is going on with the signals and where the problem is at since you can't often visually see the problem.

#35 10 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

Here are just a few options for 5101 RAM adapters:
http://www.pinitech.com/products/5101_budget_ram.php (6264 RAM adapter)

I like the Pinitech stuff. If there is any evidence of battery corrosion the socket should be replaced with a machine pin socket as this area is highly vulnerable.

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=IS-422-MP

#36 10 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

Check temp of your chips too while it's running.. if any of the cpu, eproms, etc get hot enough you can't keep your finger on them for very long then suspect that chip. You said you replaced the eproms, so likely not those. I had some boards crash because the cpu was bad and it was very apparent when checking the temperature of the cpu.. it would heat up within a minute or two and become too hot to the touch. You can't find every bad chip like this, but it's something to check.

I doubt it is the CPU either; I recently replaced it for when I first purchased this machine, the board wouldn't boot up at all, it just came on with the infamous locked on LED. Replacing the CPU and some other parts caused the machine to finally go into attract mode into the point where we are now.

Also, man, I wish you would have told me about those RAM adapters sooner because right before I read your post, I purchased two replacement 5101s made by Phillips which according to pin wiki are the fastest kind (made sure it was the exact one). Next time this kind of RAM issue comes up, I'll be sure to get one of your RAM adapters!

#37 10 years ago
Quoted from jhend1000:

Also, man, I wish you would have told me about those RAM adapters sooner because right before I read your post, I purchased two replacement 5101s made by Phillips which according to pin wiki are the fastest kind (made sure it was the exact one). Next time this kind of RAM issue comes up, I'll be sure to get one of your RAM adapters!

Hey at least you ordered two of the Philips 5101's in case you zap one. Many people would just order one, pay $3 shipping on it.. go to insert it a few times and mangle the pins, then be left having to order more. Now you know what your options are next time

As Superchicken mentioned, definitely make sure you clean up the corrosion fully or it will come back to haunt you and if you haven't replaced the 5101 RAM socket you'll want to take a look at it and see if there's any corrosion before installing brand new RAM there. Many times it's so corroded that the socket pins completely break off.

#38 10 years ago

Yeah, I'm definitely glad I got two instead of one... As far as keeping it from getting shorted out by static electricity, what kind of safety precautions do you recommend?

#39 10 years ago
Quoted from jhend1000:

Yeah, I'm definitely glad I got two instead of one... As far as keeping it from getting shorted out by static electricity, what kind of safety precautions do you recommend?

They make ESD wrist straps with ground cords, anti-static gloves, work tables and mats (some of the mats have built-in grounding cables). Anyway, what I usually just do is touch something that I know is grounded that's in close proximity to what I'll be working on.. that way I discharge any static electricity just prior to picking up some static-sensitive component. Usually easier to find something that will work in the winter since it's dryer and build up of static electricity is more common, so you can't help finding things that release that charge

#40 10 years ago

Ok thanks man, I'll keep that in mind. I'll post what happens when the Ram comes in and/or anything new!

#41 10 years ago

Well, I think I have found something that leads me to believe that once again the issue is the ram. The current cmos chip installed is a toshiba TC5501 and doesn't say 5101 so maybe someone in the past put in the wrong ram chip... I have noticed that there have been a lot of things done wrong on this game which I've had to correct so far
I think that this person did something wrong again...

#42 10 years ago
Quoted from jhend1000:

Well, I think I have found something that leads me to believe that once again the issue is the ram. The current cmos chip installed is a toshiba TC5501 and doesn't say 5101 so maybe someone in the past put in the wrong ram chip... I have noticed that there have been a lot of things done wrong on this game which I've had to correct so far
I think that this person did something wrong again...

Seems like similar pinout from the TC5501 datasheet. Looks like a slower part which by itself can cause issues. Not sure if there's other differences between a 5501 and 5101.. interesting though.

#43 10 years ago

Yeah I bet that's what it is. It itself could be bad anyway too...

#44 10 years ago

Hi all another update as we wait for the RAM to come in: I just did some experimenting and I've noticed that any time that I reset the audits, no matter how many times I try to reset them, the game will crash in a very glitchy way; displays go nuts too... When I re-start the game, it once again throws in those junk values with the credits and high scores I know I didn't put on the game. It seems to always crash when the attract mode starts to flash the strobe light after sitting for a while which when the audits are the junk values, that's when it starts to flash the tilt light and the same player shoots again light when it shouldn't...

Something is screwed up with the RAM for sure...

#45 10 years ago

It may also be the 6810 memory at U7. This is were the game settings are held after boot. Big Daddy carries these:
http://bigdaddy-enterprises.com/

#46 10 years ago
Quoted from Superchicken:

It may also be the 6810 memory at U7. This is were the game settings are held after boot. Big Daddy carries these:
http://bigdaddy-enterprises.com/

Ok thanks. That will be the next place to check I guess if the 5101 is good

#47 10 years ago

If you do happen to need 6810 RAM I have a boat-load. Both F6810's (used pulls) and brand new Motorola MCM6810P's. I got a little paranoid at one point thinking I might have to replace that chip often enough and didn't have many at all. Between the pulls and new ones I must have 300x of them now, so I'm good for a while. Especially considering I've only had to replace one or two during the several years I've been fixing machines, so I'd think that means they don't go bad as often as 5101's. Hopefully the new 5101 solves things for you.

#48 10 years ago

Well, the 5101s FINALLY came in the mail today and unfortunately, I don't think that it fixed our issue
I've only tried one and I made sure to discharge any electricity from my body to ground and was very careful installing the chip. The machine has not crashed though ever since I put it in and it did now throw junk audit values in there so maybe we had two issues instead of one. The fish paper seems to be working, I checked it again. There is ground getting to the coin door too. Any other ideas for I am about clueless at this point... Anyone think it could be the driver boards? I did notice that there is a coil that locks on which I disconnected so it wouldn't damage anything along with a dead jet bumper (solenoid works in the test though just not the switch.) It seems to flash the incorrect lights after it has warmed up for a few minutes and then it starts to flash the TILT light, etc. What are your thoughts on buying an Altek board?

#49 10 years ago

BTW I don't see a bit of corrosion on the board either

#50 10 years ago

This kind of stuff is the reason I developed some Bally testing tools. It could be your plugs, could be cracked solder joints, switch capacitors on the mpu, break somewhere in the wiring, etc etc. You need a way to cut down the list of possibilities.. and work one issue at a time. If it was me and I just had a multimeter at my disposal I would check continuity from the coin door switch to the plug, then from the plug to the mpu. You will have to reference the schematics and follow the wiring. Also if you have a spare diode you can try faking switches at the switch headers on the mpu. I'll try and post something on that tomorrow.. not at the computer right now. You'd need to reference the switch matrix chart in the manual for how to hook that up.

Alltek is a good board replacement, but if your issue is with plugs, wiring or otherwise outside of the mpu you would be in the same boat. Helps to have an extra mpu board for things like this too. I think you just had more issues than the 5101 being bad, which is usually how it goes.

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