(Topic ID: 281086)

Bally Fireball buzzing bell question

By paulace

3 years ago



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  • Latest reply 3 years ago by paulace
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Fireball 100 and 1000 pt relays (resized).JPG
#1 3 years ago

I've been working on a friend's Bally Fireball, and after replacing the 100 and/or 1000 pt bell solenoid (the old one locked on and melted), he was noticing a buzzing of the bell (the plunger striking the bell rapidly several times) - similar to that of an old-fashioned phone - when a ball would move over a switch slowly. Looking at the schematic below, I understand that both the 100 and 1000 pt relays (which control the bell solenoid) have a locking switch which keeps the relay on, in series with drum unit EOS switches that open the circuit when the plunger for the drum unit has completed its motion. But if the ball (or my finger) keeps a switch closed that activates either of those relays, there's nothing to turn off the relay, correct? As long as the ball is keeping a switch closed, the EOS switches don't matter - the relay stays powered on and the drum unit plunger stays pulled in, and the bell coil stays powered on - is that right?
If so, then a buzz on an AC bell coil would be normal behavior?

When I replaced the bell solenoid, the replacement coil was just ever so slightly taller than the old coil - we wound up having to move the upper bracket that holds the coil up just a hair, resulting in the upper end of the coil being slightly higher (and thus closer to the bell) than it was originally. So the plunger is slightly deeper in the coil when it strikes the bell than it was originally. Could that be causing an increased buzz? I wonder if raising the bell slightly would matter.

If that was clear.....any thoughts?
Fireball 100 and 1000 pt relays (resized).JPGFireball 100 and 1000 pt relays (resized).JPG

#2 3 years ago

I agree with your understanding of the schematic. A playfield switch will keep the point relay active even if the Score Reel EOS switch is open.

I suspect that the longer solenoid is the cause of the trouble. When it first fires the bell solenoid pulls the plunger up through the solenoid and into the side of the bell. Normally the Score Reel EOS switch acts just as quickly so as soon as the plunger hits the bell (or very soon after) the power to the bell solenoid is cut and the plunger falls back through the solenoid to its rest position.

But if a playfield switch is held closed and the point relay stays active for a longer period the plunger doesn't fall back to its rest position because the solenoid too is still active. Instead what happens is that the magnetic field in the solenoid wants to hold the plunger up longer which brings gravity into play.

When it's first launched at the bell the plunger gets sucked into the solenoid and actually overshoots the strongest part of the magnetic field at the center of the solenoid on its way to hitting the bell. Once it's above the solenoid and in a weaker magnetic field gravity starts to do its thing and the plunger falls back through the solenoid. Eventually it reaches the strongest part of the magnetic field again where the magnetic field is stronger than gravity, but momentum makes it overshoot again through the lower side of the plunger. The plunger will actually oscillate back and forth through the solenoid several times until it settles at the point where the upward force of the magnetic field matches the downward force of gravity. You can see the oscillation if you look closely at the video at https://www.funwithpinball.com/exhibits/small-boards#Solenoid (Note that the solenoid in the video is weaker than a bell solenoid, but the physics is the same.)

Since it is an AC coil the magnetic field that acts on the plunger is constantly changing which further complicates things, but the gist is that the plunger takes a little time to settle down.

If your new solenoid is closer to the bell it may be that the bell is now close enough that the plunger is hitting the bell on subsequent passes through the solenoid. The initial kick will travel the most and each subsequent oscillation will travel less until the plunger finally stops. Raising the bell might put it far enough away that the plunger can only hit the bell on the initial kick.

/Mark

#3 3 years ago

Thanks Mark - I wondered if the plunger wasn't able to get high enough to avoid hitting the bell as it oscillated. The bottom bracket holding the bell solenoid is welded to the frame, so I don't think I can lower the solenoid - I'll rig something up to raise the bell then, and see what happens.

I also wondered about putting a diode (and resistor?) in the bell solenoid circuit to effectively change it to dc...would that be wise? I'm sure a DC solenoid plunger oscillates too if able to move freely, but because this one buzzes for as long as the switch is held closed, I'm assuming that it's the alternating nature of the current that's affecting this.

Is it a smart design to allow the bell (and drum unit) solenoid(s) to lock on like that? Those things (especially the bell solenoid) are high current and get really hot very quickly, so if you had a stuck switch under the pf, or a ball got stuck in a position where it was closing a switch, it seems like you could burn out one of those solenoids pretty fast if no one was there watching the machine.

#4 3 years ago

A diode would only get you half wave rectified AC, or essentially half of the AC signal. So the solenoid would be on half the time and off half the time. The net effect might be that the plunger is fired with less force which might end up reducing the buzz. You probably wouldn't damage anything if you tried but I don't remember hearing of that being a solution in any similar situation.

The alternating current may be a contributing factor in the plunger oscillation but I'm pretty sure that it's mechanical inertia and the overshooting past the center of the solenoid that is the main factor. Plungers in other devices only stop because there is a mechanical stop built into the device (pop bumpers, flippers, sling shots, etc.) The bell plunger has no such stop other than the bell, but it doesn't stop the plunger in the sweet spot of the solenoid like the others.

#5 3 years ago

Thanks, Mark - sounds like I need to adjust the height of the bell then to try to find a place where the plunger doesn't oscillate so much after the rebound. Thanks for the input, as always!

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