(Topic ID: 296655)

SOLVED: Bally EM Bridge Rectifier/Circuit Issue: Old Chicago/Others

By Dono

2 years ago


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  • Latest reply 9 months ago by DanMarino
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#1 2 years ago

I've repaired several WMS EM games over the years with bad bridge rectifiers, so I'm aware of the basic functionality, but I have a question for those more electronically knowledgeable than myself on a 76 Bally Old Chicago that has undergone a playfield swap.

Biggest issue is pop bumpers having no pop... so I checked solenoid voltage at the transformer (53V), voltage at NON-pop bumper solenoids (53V), and on the pop solenoids when firing - (20.3V). I did a test of the bridge rectifier and it has tested fine, so my question is WTF could be holding back the voltage on the pops?. Not sure what to test next.

I get the use of diodes on the pops, but why have a 1.0 uFD capacitor on this curcuit? Is it out of the question to think the 1.0 uFD capacitor is bad and that's negatively affecting voltage on all the pops? See attached snippet of the bride circuit on the pops. I'd really like to know why a cap is needed on this circuit as well.
Bridge_OC (resized).PNGBridge_OC (resized).PNG

#2 2 years ago

How did you test the voltage of the pop bumpers when firing? And were you measuring DC or AC volts?
What's the DC voltage across the pop bumper switch when the pop bumper is not firing? That's the voltage that will be applied across the pop bumper solenoid once the switch closes.

Here's what the voltages around the bridge rectifier look like (taken from https://www.schoolphysics.co.uk/age16-19/Electronics/Semiconductors/text/Rectification_/index.html)
Rectifier voltages (resized).pngRectifier voltages (resized).png
The AC voltage going into the rectifier from the left looks like a sine wave that crosses 0 volts 120 times per second (60Hz). The peaks are all positive voltage, but the valleys are below 0 volts, or negative voltage. The rectified voltage coming out of the bridge rectifier to the right (labeled as "unsmoothed" above) looks like a sine wave where all of the valleys have been flipped over to become peaks so you end up with twice as many peaks as the AC voltage, and no valleys.

The capacitor is there to try to fill the voltage gaps between the peaks while current is being drawn through the rectifier to fire the pop bumpers. The waveform looks more like the "smoothed" waveform above. The capacitor charges up on the rising edge of the voltage waveform, but it falls much more slowly that the voltage from the rectifier because it has saved up stored energy from the peak. The effect is a voltage that looks more like DC (because it doesn't drop below zero) than AC. It is not a smooth constant DC voltage like you might get out of a battery. The voltage fluctuation is call ripple. How much ripple you have depends on the size or capacity of your capacitor, and how much current you're trying to draw out of it.

It's possible that your capacitor failed or has developed an small short so that it no longer has the capacity to smooth out the ripple that it once had. So when new the capacitor provided a more "smoothed" voltage waveform but now is producing something with much more ripple that may look more like the "unsmoothed" voltage.

/Mark

#3 2 years ago

1uf is a very small value and won't do much smoothing. Easy and cheap to replace anyway just to eliminate it.

#4 2 years ago

Thanks for the info, very informative...

"How did you test the voltage of the pop bumpers when firing? And were you measuring DC or AC volts?"

Ohm-meter - definitely measured DC voltage - same as how I tested DC volts at the transformer and other solenoids not on the rectified circuit - those
tested out perfectly to spec.

"What's the DC voltage across the pop bumper switch when the pop bumper is not firing? That's the voltage that will be applied across the pop bumper solenoid once the switch closes."

Sorry, not trying to be an ass, just trying to understand... I'm not following why this is important (i.e. if I measured DC voltage across the solenoid when
the switch closes, what's gained by measuring the switch points while NOT closed)?

And generally, if I'm getting a 60% drop in voltage across every pop bumper in the rectified circuit, can that justifiably be linked to a bad capacitor? I'm not visualizing how a less clipped ripple could affect voltage that much.

#5 2 years ago

The pop bumper spoon switches are probably burnt/pitted/tarnished.

#6 2 years ago
Quoted from Dono:

"definitely measured DC voltage - same as how I tested DC volts at the transformer and other solenoids not on the rectified circuit - those tested out perfectly to spec.

I don't follow. Neither the transformer nor the other solenoids not in the rectified circuit will measure much DC voltage if any. They're all running on AC.

Quoted from Dono:

if I measured DC voltage across the solenoid when the switch closes, what's gained by measuring the switch points while NOT closed)?

When the pop bumper switch is open the circuit through the pop bumper coil is open and no current is flowing. In that situation the capacitor can charge fully (assuming its working properly) and you might observe the maximum DC voltage across the switch that the rectified circuit can provide with little to no ripple. Once the switch closes, current flows through the circuit and the capacitor discharges to some degree between the peaks.

If your capacitor as a short, it might not be able to charge fully and what you would measure even in an open circuit is a lower voltage.

Quoted from Dono:

if I'm getting a 60% drop in voltage across every pop bumper in the rectified circuit, can that justifiably be linked to a bad capacitor?

The rectifier circuit is almost certainly designed to provide a somewhat smoothed rectified voltage to the pop bumper for the fraction of a second it takes for the pop bumper to do its thing. But if you leave the pop bumper solenoid on much longer you probably draw current from the rectifier and capacitor much longer that it can sustain a smoothed waveform and it degrades into an unsmoothed waveform.

Multimeters generally aren't able to take instantaneous voltage measurements so they average readings over a period of time. That's why I asked how you measured voltage when the pop bumpers are firing. It seems possible that your reading might include some measurements taken before and/or after the pop bumper fired. If you kept the pop bumper active then you might be demanding more current than the circuit can provide which could also explain the low voltage reading. (Think weak car batter on a cold morning - there's just not enough juice in there.)

In any event, your voltage is reduced even though your measurements might not be accurate so try replacing the capacitor as pins4u suggested. And if you use a polarized capacitor be sure not to install it backwards.

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

And if you use a polarized capacitor be sure not to install it backwards.

If you do install it backwards it will let you know (boom)

#8 2 years ago

Following. Please report the resolution. Thank you.

#9 2 years ago

Appreciate all the info. I need to recheck everything to make sure I'm measuring DC volts on the rectified circuit, especially across the open pop switch and AC across the transformer.

#10 2 years ago
Quoted from pins4u:

1uf is a very small value and won't do much smoothing. Easy and cheap to replace anyway just to eliminate it.

Just run down the list again to confirm nothing was missed....

1) Can you confirm visually that the capacitor is indeed marked "1.0uf" in size? That bridge rectifier arrangement in an application such as this usually has 100uf or 220uf or higher. (schematic could be wrong)
2) Can you set your meter to DC volts 200, and measure the voltage across the capacitor. It should be the +53VDC you seek.
3) Can you then measure the voltage across each of the 5 pop switches (while they are open) with your meter set to DC 200, and confirm that you see the same voltage, 53VDC which should be present if each of the coil windings are intact.
4) Measure the resistance across the fuse while it is removed from the game, with your meter set to OHMS. It should be ZERO.

Let us know what you find.

#11 2 years ago
Quoted from Markharris2000:

Just run down the list again to confirm nothing was missed....
1) Can you confirm visually that the capacitor is indeed marked "1.0uf" in size? That bridge rectifier arrangement in an application such as this usually has 100uf or 220uf or higher. (schematic could be wrong)
2) Can you set your meter to DC volts 200, and measure the voltage across the capacitor. It should be the +53VDC you seek.
3) Can you then measure the voltage across each of the 5 pop switches (while they are open) with your meter set to DC 200, and confirm that you see the same voltage, 53VDC which should be present if each of the coil windings are intact.
4) Measure the resistance across the fuse while it is removed from the game, with your meter set to OHMS. It should be ZERO.
Let us know what you find.

I'll report back tonight on each of these. Appreciate all the feedback and help so far.

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from KenLayton:

The pop bumper spoon switches are probably burnt/pitted/tarnished.

I hit those up well with a points file as part of the rebuild, they're clean with no pits.

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from Markharris2000:

Just run down the list again to confirm nothing was missed....
1) Can you confirm visually that the capacitor is indeed marked "1.0uf" in size? That bridge rectifier arrangement in an application such as this usually has 100uf or 220uf or higher. (schematic could be wrong)
2) Can you set your meter to DC volts 200, and measure the voltage across the capacitor. It should be the +53VDC you seek.
3) Can you then measure the voltage across each of the 5 pop switches (while they are open) with your meter set to DC 200, and confirm that you see the same voltage, 53VDC which should be present if each of the coil windings are intact.
4) Measure the resistance across the fuse while it is removed from the game, with your meter set to OHMS. It should be ZERO.
Let us know what you find.

OC_Cap (resized).jpgOC_Cap (resized).jpg
#14 2 years ago
OC_Cap (resized).jpgOC_Cap (resized).jpg
#15 2 years ago
Quoted from Markharris2000:

Just run down the list again to confirm nothing was missed....
1) Can you confirm visually that the capacitor is indeed marked "1.0uf" in size? That bridge rectifier arrangement in an application such as this usually has 100uf or 220uf or higher. (schematic could be wrong)

yep 1.ouf... I do see what looks like some degradation on the side of the capacitor when I changed out the fuse holder.

2) Can you set your meter to DC volts 200, and measure the voltage across the capacitor. It should be the +53VDC you seek.

it's actually reading 59VDC

3) Can you then measure the voltage across each of the 5 pop switches (while they are open) with your meter set to DC 200, and confirm that you see the same voltage, 53VDC which should be present if each of the coil windings are intact.

All reading 59VDC

4) Measure the resistance across the fuse while it is removed from the game, with your meter set to OHMS. It should be ZERO.
Let us know what you find.

Fuse read 2.0 ohms resistance.. I replaced fuse and crappy fuse holder.

Pop performance hasn't changed.

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from Markharris2000:

Just run down the list again to confirm nothing was missed....
1) Can you confirm visually that the capacitor is indeed marked "1.0uf" in size? That bridge rectifier arrangement in an application such as this usually has 100uf or 220uf or higher. (schematic could be wrong)
2) Can you set your meter to DC volts 200, and measure the voltage across the capacitor. It should be the +53VDC you seek.
3) Can you then measure the voltage across each of the 5 pop switches (while they are open) with your meter set to DC 200, and confirm that you see the same voltage, 53VDC which should be present if each of the coil windings are intact.
4) Measure the resistance across the fuse while it is removed from the game, with your meter set to OHMS. It should be ZERO.
Let us know what you find.

1. yes, it reads 1.0 uf. I confirmed with several other Bally schematics that state 1MFD on the schematic; I assume uf and MFD are equivalents?

2. It's reading 59VDC

3. All 5 reading 59VDC

4. Fuse had a 2.0 ohm resistance out of the holder. I ended up replacing both the fuse and fuse holder... not sure how I missed this one on the rebuild.

No change in performance however.

#17 2 years ago

One more idea.... The bridge recifier might be partially out. If one of the four diodes inside of it is OPEN, then (because of the smoothing capacitor) you may see the power supply looking like it everything is fine WITHOUT any load (no pops running), but it would be acting like a HALF WAVE RECTIFIER under the load of a pop coil. So a full wave rectifies the input voltage at 1.4 times the input transformer voltage winding. A Half wave recifies the voltage at 0.7 times the winding input voltage.

Some back of the napkin math: If the the transformer is about 40 VAC, then if the bridge is 100% working, you'll get something like 55VDC when measured on the capacitor. BUT, if the bridge is half broken (one diode is out), then you'll get 40 VAC times .7 or about 25 VDC (under load) on the capacitor. Now add a slo-blo fuse of 2-OHMS and a 14-OHM coil, and that 25VDC will be reduced by 2/(14+2) or 1/(7+1)th, for a grand total of about 21.5 VDC on the coil when firing.

Replace the full-wave bridge.

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from Markharris2000:

One more idea.... The bridge recifier might be partially out. If one of the four diodes inside of it is OPEN, then you may see the power supply looking like it everything is fine WITHOUT any load (no pops running), but it would be acting like a HALF WAVE RECTIFIER under the load of a pop coil. So a full wave rectifies the input voltage at 1.4 times the input transformer voltage winding. A Half wave recifies the voltage at 0.7 times the winding input voltage.
Some back of the napkin math: If the the transformer is about 40 VAC, then if the bridge is 100% working, you'll get something like 55VDC when measured on the capacitor. BUT, if the bridge is half broken (one diode is out), then you'll get 40 VAC times .7 or about 25 VDC (under load) on the capacitor. Now add a slo-blo fuse of 2-OHMS and a 14-OHM coil, and that 25VDC will be reduced by (2/14 or 1/7)th, for a grand total of about 21 VDC on the coil when firing.
Replace the full-wave bridge.

Sounds like a plan, will report back; I have a replacement, will get to it shortly.

#19 2 years ago

Replace the bridge and the cap and take it from there.
They're cheap enough.

#20 2 years ago

That capacitor is a snubber cap for RF spikes from coils. It is not smoothing the rectified waveform.

As mentioned earlier, you could have one leg of the bridge out. If you had an oscilloscope, you could look at the waveform and see what is going on.

Replace and report back. Also, double check the wiring to / from the bridge.

#21 2 years ago
Quoted from Skidave:

That capacitor is a snubber cap for RF spikes from coils. It is not smoothing the rectified waveform.
As mentioned earlier, you could have one leg of the bridge out. If you had an oscilloscope, you could look at the waveform and see what is going on.
Replace and report back. Also, double check the wiring to / from the bridge.

I replaced with a known good one, no change in performance; only thing left is the cap; I'll be ordering one shortly.

#22 2 years ago

That cap won't be faulty - they almost never are. Perhaps the bridge is dodgy or you have other problems.

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from Skidave:

That capacitor is a snubber cap for RF spikes from coils. It is not smoothing the rectified waveform.

That's interesting. Can you elaborate? I agree that the cap seems small to do much rectifying but your comment makes me wonder...

- Without much smoothing, the pop bumpers are essentially running on rectified AC and not DC. Is that right?
- How would one effectively measure rectified AC without an oscilloscope?
- How are the RF spikes generated since the solenoids have diodes to handle the voltage spike when the switch opens?
- What is the potential victim of an RF spike? The bridge rectifier? Or was it an FCC thing?

#24 2 years ago

Just another thought: Are you sure you have the correct coils in the pop bumpers?

#25 2 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Just another thought: Are you sure you have the correct coils in the pop bumpers?

I should have clarified some points prior to posting the details... as part of my playfield swap, I went over everything, including checking all coils and they're all correct. All relay contacts dremel cleaned and switch stacks tightened, all pop mechs are smoothly moving with no binding whatsoever... the game plays great in all other areas except pop performance. IN4004s on all the pops; I did NOT replace these.

I also filed the crap out of all of the pop switches, and they're clean and no pits whatsoever; all gapped like I do all my other EMs... also validated wiring with my MH EM and its schematic as well... same config, even same wire colors coming off the bridge.

#26 2 years ago

Can I use any type of 1 uf cap? I see PBR carries 2 different 1uf cap, and mouser carries a bunch of 1uf caps... I assume I can use either polarized or non... true?

#27 2 years ago

I’d remove the DC side fuse and check the resistance from the fuse holder to each pop. I’d do the same thing for the rectifier wire that goes to each spoon switch. Since they’re all weak it’s got to be something common. You replaced the rectifier, so that’s ruled out...

Apologies if you’ve already done this and I missed it in the thread.

Dave

#28 2 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

That's interesting. Can you elaborate? I agree that the cap seems small to do much rectifying but your comment makes me wonder...
- Without much smoothing, the pop bumpers are essentially running on rectified AC and not DC. Is that right?
- How would one effectively measure rectified AC without an oscilloscope?
- How are the RF spikes generated since the solenoids have diodes to handle the voltage spike when the switch opens?
- What is the potential victim of an RF spike? The bridge rectifier? Or was it an FCC thing?

Great questions. I'll briefly elaborate and maybe others can chime in.
-Rectified AC has similar potential as regular AC with only positive waveform spikes. In theory, the positive peak potential is the same, but with less downtime between the waveform peaks. I'm not sure how this changes coil response. My guess, is it makes the coil respond faster.
-Without a scope, I would use the frequency counter on your digital VM to see what the waveform frequency is measuring. It should be double the line frequency (60HZ would be 120 and 50HZ would be 100).
-Switch gaps cause the RF spike. On SS games, it is not the low voltage switch contacts, but flipper switches and EOS switches. In EM games, all switches.
-RF Spikes cause noise in the power lines and without EMI filtering on the power line, it will radiate to other electronics. In SS games, it can also cause issues with low voltage electronics, microprocessor and so on. That is why there should be some RF filtering on MPU boards via LC and RC networks on the supply voltage lines.

Quoted from Dono:

Can I use any type of 1 uf cap? I see PBR carries 2 different 1uf cap, and mouser carries a bunch of 1uf caps... I assume I can use either polarized or non... true?

Just order what PBR or Marco has. I use Mouser all the time, but you will drive yourself nuts trying to pick out the best cap if you are not familiar. Also, this should NOT be a polarized cap.

#29 2 years ago

One more thing I thought of, most bridges have the sine wave symbol for the AC (input) and then the + / - for the rectified output. Do you have your wiring correct?

#30 2 years ago
Quoted from Skidave:

-Switch gaps cause the RF spike. In EM games, all switches.
-RF Spikes cause noise in the power lines and without EMI filtering on the power line, it will radiate to other electronics.

I totally get why that's important in SS games. I should have clarified that I was curious about EM games.

But why only address the DC (or rectified AC) switches and not all of the other high current switches in the game (stepper solenoids, reset solenoids, etc.). And was the RF spike a concern for nearby TVs and radios? Because I don't think anything in and EM game (other than maybe the rectifier and other diodes) would care.

#31 2 years ago
Quoted from Skidave:

One more thing I thought of, most bridges have the sine wave symbol for the AC (input) and then the + / - for the rectified output. Do you have your wiring correct?

yes, confirmed with my Mata Hari EM, that's working perfectly. Interesting the two games utilize exact same wire colors for AC and rectified output.

#32 2 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

How did you test the voltage of the pop bumpers when firing? And were you measuring DC or AC volts?
What's the DC voltage across the pop bumper switch when the pop bumper is not firing? That's the voltage that will be applied across the pop bumper solenoid once the switch closes.
Here's what the voltages around the bridge rectifier look like (taken from https://www.schoolphysics.co.uk/age16-19/Electronics/Semiconductors/text/Rectification_/index.html)
[quoted image]
The AC voltage going into the rectifier from the left looks like a sine wave that crosses 0 volts 120 times per second (60Hz). The peaks are all positive voltage, but the valleys are below 0 volts, or negative voltage. The rectified voltage coming out of the bridge rectifier to the right (labeled as "unsmoothed" above) looks like a sine wave where all of the valleys have been flipped over to become peaks so you end up with twice as many peaks as the AC voltage, and no valleys.
The capacitor is there to try to fill the voltage gaps between the peaks while current is being drawn through the rectifier to fire the pop bumpers. The waveform looks more like the "smoothed" waveform above. The capacitor charges up on the rising edge of the voltage waveform, but it falls much more slowly that the voltage from the rectifier because it has saved up stored energy from the peak. The effect is a voltage that looks more like DC (because it doesn't drop below zero) than AC. It is not a smooth constant DC voltage like you might get out of a battery. The voltage fluctuation is call ripple. How much ripple you have depends on the size or capacity of your capacitor, and how much current you're trying to draw out of it.
It's possible that your capacitor failed or has developed an small short so that it no longer has the capacity to smooth out the ripple that it once had. So when new the capacitor provided a more "smoothed" voltage waveform but now is producing something with much more ripple that may look more like the "unsmoothed" voltage.
/Mark

Im interested on this as im getting ready to do a playfield swap on my OC. It was working perfectly before I tore it down. We'll see when i get it done.

This was a great explanation of how this all works. Thank you.

#33 2 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

I totally get why that's important in SS games. I should have clarified that I was curious about EM games.
But why only address the DC (or rectified AC) switches and not all of the other high current switches in the game (stepper solenoids, reset solenoids, etc.). And was the RF spike a concern for nearby TVs and radios? Because I don't think anything in and EM game (other than maybe the rectifier and other diodes) would care.

I doubt the concern was RF interference on other devices.

the diodes in parallel with the coils are the main snubbers that prevent high voltage spikes from potentially damaging the bridge diodes.

I dunno if the capacitor is there to absorb some of the energy dumped into the circuit by the collapsing magnetic field in the coil or if it's there to prevent the + rail from getting too low when the AC input voltage crosses zero.

I'd bet it's not there for smoothing the DC output of the bridge since that isn't very important when the load is just solenoids.

in inductive circuits without some kind of snubber, the high voltage energy is usually dissipated as a spark, and that only becomes an issue if you get a lot of sparking in a short time as the contacts will heat and vaporize ... so the EM guys didn't care and probably liked the light show.

the guy who designed in the bridge probably didn't want to be blamed when they died too soon, so he added the snubber diodes.

#34 2 years ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

Im interested on this as im getting ready to do a playfield swap on my OC. It was working perfectly before I tore it down. We'll see when i get it done.
This was a great explanation of how this all works. Thank you.

This OC has been an odd ball for me... it's my first EM that had a failing score motor, and also first EM where after replacing the rectifier I still have a performance issue on associated pop bumper solenoids...

I'm waiting for parts... will replace the cap and the IN4004s... for some reason I'm NOT feeling confident. if the cap replacement does nothing it's back to the drawing board!

#35 2 years ago

The only thing left is wiring. And since it's happening identically on all five coils, I suspect the positive line. Try this: Tack a piece of 16 gauge wire to the POSITIVE terminal on the bridge rectifier, and the other end to the POSITIVE side of any one of the coils (the lug that has the BAND of the diode attached). Then try manually firing that coil, using the associated leaf switch.

#36 2 years ago

Just to make sure: did you measure the voltage between rectifier - and + or directly across bumper coil (both ways are OK)? Since there is a full wave rectifier, the coil common is not at the same ground as the AC solenoids, and if you measure against the AC solenoid ground, you will see only about half of the DC voltage.

#37 2 years ago
Quoted from Markharris2000:

The only thing left is wiring. And since it's happening identically on all five coils, I suspect the positive line. Try this: Tack a piece of 16 gauge wire to the POSITIVE terminal on the bridge rectifier, and the other end to the POSITIVE side of any one of the coils (the lug that has the BAND of the diode attached). Then try manually firing that coil, using the associated leaf switch.

if that improves things, suspect a cruddy fuse holder.

assuming the rectifier and fuse is on the playfield so no plug connections are in the path, you can try jumpering the wires on the fuse holder to bypass the fuse/clips.

#38 2 years ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

Just to make sure: did you measure the voltage between rectifier - and + or directly across bumper coil (both ways are OK)? Since there is a full wave rectifier, the coil common is not at the same ground as the AC solenoids, and if you measure against the AC solenoid ground, you will see only about half of the DC voltage.

Great question... I'll remeasure.

#39 2 years ago
Quoted from Markharris2000:

The only thing left is wiring. And since it's happening identically on all five coils, I suspect the positive line. Try this: Tack a piece of 16 gauge wire to the POSITIVE terminal on the bridge rectifier, and the other end to the POSITIVE side of any one of the coils (the lug that has the BAND of the diode attached). Then try manually firing that coil, using the associated leaf switch.

I shoulda done this straight away; I'll test after work tonight and report back.

#40 2 years ago

Do you have a better picture of the rectifier connections since you replaced the fuse holder?

I tried following he wires from the original picture, but it’s at a sharp angle. I can also compare it to my old Chicago.

Dave

#41 2 years ago

After all the great info and suggestions, I had to go check voltages again at each of the pops... measured VDC from the VDC- to the orange hot at each of the pops... all of them were 73.2VDC... doesn't jibe with earlier readings.

Also measured resistance from the fuse to each pop; it's negligible at .2 Ohms each.

The wiring matches pix prior to the swap and matches my Mata Hari EM setup as well, so 99.9% positive there's no wiring issue.

HOWEVER, looking at the pix I just took and included below... I just noticed what looks like damage to the cap... did not see that damage until now. I have a replacement cap coming, hopefully it'll be here Friday. Will report back.
bridge_1 (resized).jpgbridge_1 (resized).jpgbridge_2 (resized).jpgbridge_2 (resized).jpgbridge_3 (resized).jpgbridge_3 (resized).jpg

#42 2 years ago

I hate to throw water on the enthusiasm, but swapping the CAP won't likely fix your issue. It could be OPEN, which would not have any material affect on the pops, or it could be SHORTED, which would show up when you measure VDC across it and would indicate ZERO volts. There really is NO in-between affect that the CAP could cause.

I think you might want to start at the top again and measure the various items we suggested. Your note right above shows very different values than your first pass at this.

The bright side: This is a fairly simple schematic. No real SS electronics involved. Just a power supply, a fuse, a coil and a switch. You are overlooking something obvious.

#43 2 years ago

I’ve worked on early SS Williams machines that had the bridge male tabs soldered to the females. Directly soldered wires to the bridge tabs is best to avoid connection problems.

#44 2 years ago
Quoted from Markharris2000:

I hate to throw water on the enthusiasm, but swapping the CAP won't likely fix your issue. It could be OPEN, which would not have any material affect on the pops, or it could be SHORTED, which would show up when you measure VDC across it and would indicate ZERO volts. There really is NO in-between affect that the CAP could cause.
I think you might want to start at the top again and measure the various items we suggested. Your note right above shows very different values than your first pass at this.
The bright side: This is a fairly simple schematic. No really electronics involced. A power supply, a fuse, a coil and a switch. You are overlooking something obvious.

I went back and did what you suggested, validated that I was only seeing 20VDC across the pop spoon switches... looked for shorts but everything looked clean.

So, could I have replaced a bad bridge with another bad bridge - YES!!! I just took the bridge out of my MH, wired it into the OC, and yep, 73 Volts not 20 at the spoon switches...case closed, back to your regularly scheduled programming; pops slamming the ball around like a champ. In essence, I replaced a bad bridge (start of this topic) with another bad bridge (last night) from my parts bin (dumb idea).

Not all is lost, definitely learned a lot about rectified circuits and we now have this info for others that run into this problem down the road... I would like to thank all of you who contributed your expertise and ideas; very much appreciated.

#45 2 years ago

Whew!

2 years later
#46 9 months ago

My son in law’s Space Mission has sluggish pops. I’ll look into the bridge rectifier.

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