(Topic ID: 131248)

Bally EM Bon Voyage won't start

By xsvtoys

8 years ago


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  • 60 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by xsvtoys
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#7 8 years ago

Hi xsvtoys
maybe You have messed it up - BUT, maybe a broken-off wire has moved to the side as You have pulled a plug nearby. I once had a problem (driving me nuts): On one solder lug of the Extraball-Relay-Coil the wire has broken off - wires are stiff, the wire happened to stay in place (XB working) -> me nudging -> the broken-off wire moved a bit to the side (XB not working) -> me nudging -> it moved back (XB working) -> ->
So whenever You look at a coil or a switch: grab one wire after the other and pull a bit on the wire(s) ...

About Game-Relay (Latch and Trip) and Game-Over-Relay (only (?) Latch): You might have to present us a PDF of "part of schema". I was looking in ipdb and found (best): Bally-1972-Fore -> http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=917 -> schema -> the same situation as "Bon Voyage".

Please have a look at the places you have unplugged "Jones Plugs" -> is a "broken-off" wire nearby ? Have you plugged-in the males into the females "the correct way" ? Old plugs CAN be plugged in with a off-set -> males go in-between the females (what we do not want).

I would like You to follow the "Start-up Procedure": http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/343/Bally_1974_Bon_Voyage_Installation_and_General_Game_Operating_Instructions.pdf (starting on page-2).

Whenever you work on the pin: UNPLUG the Line-Cord, DANGER: 120 VAC (and 50 VAC and 6 VAC) around, You do not want to touch ...
Look for the Credit-Relay and the Coin-Relay and the Reset-Relay. Take a wooden stick (INSULATION) and try "push onto the anchor-plate of these relays" - simulating "the coil gets current and activates the relay (anchor plate) - practice this movement.

Plug-in the Line-Cord and turn-on the pin. I want to go through the manual -> 1D: Front Door Credit Button Switch will energize the Credit-Relay -> -> Coin-Relay.
You are now the "Credit-Buton-Switch" -> with the wooden stick push onto the anchor-plate of the Credit-Relay -> ? What happens ? Please report. Greetings Rolf

#9 8 years ago

Hi xsvtoys
great, you work on PDF to show. Here a lot of "good stuff" -> http://rwatts.cdyn.com/Machines/download_area.html -> down to the third link "Introduction to Bally Flipper Games": http://rwatts.cdyn.com/download/intro%20to%20bally%20flipper%20games.pdf (everything is good) -> page-19 and -20 (of 51) -> Motorized Trip Relay Bank. (I think: Yes (?)) Does your Bon Voyage has such a Motorized Trip Relay Bank ? I learned about +/- 2 weeks ago - I have never seen such a MOTORIZED Relay Bank ("Normal" Relay Banks: I Know).
I had an look in ipdb -> Bally-1972-Fore has such a Motorized Bank - it is a 1-Player game - it is from 1972 (close enough ?) AND IPDB SHOWS A SCHEMA -> Please look (ipdb-schema-"Fore") ->

F-7 (E-7) the Score-Motor and the wiring to switches 5000-Point-Relay / 500-Point-Relay / Special-Relay / Reset-Relay / COIN-RELAY. Some other relays also can start the Score-Motor / keep the Score-Motor running. "BALLY-Fore" would start and keep running its Score-Motor when the Switch on COIN-RELAY is closed - What does YOUR schema shows for "Score-Motor running" ?

On F-9 (E-9) You can see "RESET MOTOR" (I believe Motor for to reset the Trip-Relay-Bank), wiring and the switches Reset-Trip-Relay / COIN-RELAY / a Score-Motor-Switch (?). What does Your schema shows (switches for) "Reset-Motor running" ?

I think, You do not know about the "Lock-Relay" - also about the "Left Flipper Button".

In the evening the operator walked from pin to pin and switched-off the pin (switch underneath the cabinet) -> lights of the pin go off -> immediately afterwards he switched-on that switch (again) - NOT touching another thing -> pin is still turned-off -> the next morning the operator walked from pin to pin and just hit the Left-Flipper-Button -> the Lights go on and the pin is ready for customers to play ...

The Lock-Relay is active (keeps on pulling) from the moment "Lights go on" -> the -> whole -> day -> somebody turns-off the main switch (underneath the cabinet) in the evening. It is nice, Your Lock-Relay starts pulling and keep-on pulling.
WE MUST look for: Coin-Relay should pull, (Start-Relay should pull), Score-Motor should start, Reset-Motor should stop. And for these questions You should look-up in Your schema and/or show us the interesting parts of the schema. Greetings Rolf

#11 8 years ago

Hi xsvtoys
some more questions:

Do you have replays on the Replay-Counter ?

Does Your Score-Motor has a "Score-Motor Service-Jack". In the schema "Bally-Fore" I do not see one, in Wms Fan-Tas-Tic -> http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=820 -> schema -> D-5 (D-5) there is such a service jack - I see one Male (plug) and I see two female (sockets). Look in your pin -> One side of the Score-Motor -> a short wire ending in a male-plug. Is it plugged into ONE female (socket) or are there TWO female (sockets) and You have plugged in the male-plug into the female-socket AND on the solder-lug of this female-socket there is NO WIRE SOLDERED ON ? -> Pull and plug-in into the other female-socket.

Look in schema Bally-Fore -> F-2: A Normally-Closed-Switch on Delay-Relay. Follow the wire -> do You get to Score-Motor ? If that N.C.Switch on Delay-Relay is "faulty-open": The Score-Motor will not run ... Greetings Rolf

#15 8 years ago

Hi xsvtoys +
my beloved Gottlieb Far Out also has a Score-Motor Service-Jack. I do not own a Bally. Bally pins are very similar to Williams pins - at least the "newer" ones (Score Motor / Player-Unit + Ball-Count-Unit, logic in circuitry ...).
I do not remember where I read this statement: "Carefully checked and counterchecked "switches drawn in the schema" <-> "switches in the pin (reality)". Well, 2 switches were only in the schema - 1 switch was only in the pin."

Maybe a bit confusing -for not to have a (narrow) very, very long drawing (schema): Bally schemas have a U-Turn on the "50 VAC" side of circuitry. At first glance we have the impression (Bottom <-> Top): there are 3 sections.

Again, Delay-Relay: Bally has constructed a funny way for to solve the problem "A relay must start pulling -> pulling for a while -> stop (quit) pulling". Gottlieb uses "Capacitor and Resistor", Williams uses "Capacitor and Resistor and Transistor".
xsvtoys, have You replaced the bulb on the Delay-Relais (455 - a flashing bulb) by a regular 47-bulb ? Is Your Delay-Relay "always pulling" ? (It should not). The Delay-Relay is for a HEAVY TILT (Score Motor not running but "Motor-for-bank-reset" might run).
I would like to test with "Jumper-Cables". You can do it on Your own - or You can show me parts of the schema and then I write about "What to jumper". To work witch Jumper-Wires: You (we) MUST have a schema - and KNOW what You (we) are doing.

Instead of writing it (here) again - Please have a look: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-space-time-extra-ball-functionality -> my post-15 -> print out the PDF -> look near the transformer -> ALWAYS USE POINT-99 !!! NEVER USE POINT-4 !!! (You want to have the fuse (maybe to blow) in Your circuitry.) Want to test Your Coin-Relay ? -> Test "Jumper-Cable-A". Then -B, then -C, then -D ? Greetings Rolf

#25 8 years ago

Hi xsvtoys +
I use jumper-cables for the problem: XYZ-Relay should pull.
Another common problem is: ABC-Relay (Score-Motor / Motor of "Motorized-Relay-Bank" etc.) should NOT pull / run. Here I like to work with stripes of paper - I sneak-in a stripe of paper in-between the contacts of a switch -> "THIS ONE is securely open". I sneak-in between the "Contact-Points" (not just somewhere between the blades). I also have a look at the solder points of the blades. Has there a "piece of blank wire" fallen in-between ? Has some preowner have let fallen a screw-driver into the machine -> and the blades are bent and make "faulty-contact" ? Here: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#fuses -> scroll down to the third picture: a bent blade making a short on a lamp-socket.
Is there a solder splash ? -> http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#misc -> First picture ...

While waiting for the Jumper-Gator-Clips to come: Want to have a look at the problem "Motor of Reset-Bank keeps-on running" ? Your JPG-2: Transformer -> fuse -> Thick wire BLACK -> RESET-MOTOR -> Wire "G-B Green-Black (?)" -> Switch-on-Special-Relay and Switch on "B-E-Trip-Relay" OR Switch-on-Coin-Relay OR "Switch (on) Index Reset Motor". This switch is a "Self-Hold-Circuitry-Switch" (Once started -> the Motor shall complete a "Full-Turn" and at the end of its turn mechanically open that switch again).

At the time of "Start of a game": We do NOT need the Special-Relay -> lets eliminate the possible fault "Switch-on-Special-Relay--B-E-Trip-Relay is faulty-closed" -> sneak-in a stripe of paper in the "correct" switch on Special-Relay or (quick and dirty) sneak-in stripes of paper - into ALL switches on Special-Relay. Start a game -> Motor ?

If the motor is (still) running: LET THESE STRIPES OF PAPER in the switch(es) - maybe there are TWO faults in the circuitry -> have a look at the Coin-Relay and the Switch-on-Coin-Relay -> sneak-in stripe(s) of paper -> Start a game -> Motor ?

At the very-last: Have a look at the "Index-Wheel of Reset-Motor" - I doubt, this switch is bent "Faulty-always-closed (why should it ?). Please report.

Great, You made these JPGs. Greeting Rolf

#28 8 years ago

Hi xsvtoys
we are / I am waiting to read more about your "Bon Voyage" (I like Spinning Targets / Messenger Balls / Kick-Out-Eject-Holes).

Please write a NEW TOPIC (and mark it as "solved"), title and text:
Bally 1974 Bon Voyage schema schematic
Hi there - I made a PDF of Bon Voyage schema / schematic. See https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-em-bon-voyage-wont-start (my post-27). Greetings, xsvtoys

When You write this new topic: When (in the future) some owner of "Bon Voyage" is looking for a schema (searching in pinside.com) - he will find the schema ...

Did You always "throw-in" Coins - or have You manually switched the "Second Coin Chute Switch" / "Third Coin Chute Switch" ? AND accidentally bent a switch ?
Look in the schema "Credit-Relay -> -> -> thick wire YELLOW (returning to the transformer). See the "Second Coin Chute Switch" / "Third Coin Chute Switch" ? If one or both is/are bent and "faulty-open" then there is no "closed circuitry" for the Credit-Relay-Coil.
I would be temptet to set a Jumper-Cable "Score-Motor-1F" <-> Transformer-LUG-YELLOW (to jumper these Coin-Chute-Switches).

To "clip-on" a Jumper-Cable: I unplug / pull-out the Line-Cord (120 VAC). I clip-on "where it is harder to get at" - here: Score-Motor-1F - carefully lead the Jumper-Cable into the open (the cable shall not hinder functionality of relays etc.). Then I plug-in the Line-Cord (120 VAC), turn on and start a game and then I tip the open end of the Jumper-Cable onto Transformer-LUG-YELLOW. Greetings Rolf

#31 8 years ago

Hi xsvtoys
I like: http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/emTips.html and http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/ -> EM Games: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair
AND http://www.pinrepair.com/ -> 1930s to 1978 EM: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm (EVERYTHING).
Please read about "beeing romantic" here - (2c.): http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#coindoor -> after the third picture ...

How do You "Check Continuity" ? To get a secure (100%) correct result You MUST unsolder one side of "I want to test this wire / switch / connection" ! There are many wires in the pin - You might get a "faulty" result (there is connection) - but You actually have a"Connection around in the pin" giving You this faulty result.

Pull the Line-Cord (NO 110VAC available) ! Take out the 10-Ampere-Fuse (schema: D-2 / E-2), check for continuity in between the socket-holders (of the fuse) -> Your result ? Turn Your meter to "Check Resistance (Ohms)" and measure again (in between the sockets) -> Your result ?
Maybe your meter has a "marginal-value" built-in (some Ohms) - below that marginal-value the Continuity-Checker tells You: Continuity. And above that marginal-value it tells you: NO Continuity (?)

Look in your schema: Socket-of-10-Amp-Fuse -> wire -> through the Normally-Closed-Switch-on-Delay-Relay -> to and through the "Coin-Lockout-Coil" -> wire -> Closed-Switch-1C-on-Score-Motor -> thick wire YELLOW -> through the "windings of transformer" -> Socket-of-Fuse (the other socket). When measuring Ohms: You should get a result (maybe 50 Ohms / maybe 100 Ohms ?) You should not get the result 10000000000000 Ohms. So my question: Is the "marginal-value" in Your meter set for to check continuity in pinball-machines ?

nickrooster has written something very important: "Score-Motor Index-Runout-Switch". xsvtoys, in Your post-1 You wrote about "changing setting plugs" - I did my "thinking" assuming the Score-Motor is 100%-well-running - a pin with "Score-Motor NOT stopped in propper-position (at run-Out)" can cause all kind of "crazy behavior" ...

Of course I did not invent "Testing with Jumper-Cables" - I like that kind of testing. For to test with Jumper-Cables one NEEDS a schema - I very much like "having a schema" ... Greetings Rolf

#32 8 years ago

Hi xsvtoys
here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/using-schematics-and-8-foot-jumper-wires in my post-10 I show a JPG. For to "Check continuity" I use my manipulated "Green Flashlight" - two wires coming out - if I touch the bare ends: The Flashlight lights up (it does not lights-up when doing the Test "Fuse-Holder-sockets" (to much resistance in the "connection all the way around" for the bulb to light-up)). Some times I am rude to a pin - see text "U", "V", "W", "X"" - on a place "hard to get at": Most of the work I can do with ONE hand. After I have tested / repaired the pin: I connect "Male" and "Female" of these "Automotive Departement Car-Electric plugs" and let them in the pin for future use. Greetings Rolf

#34 8 years ago

Hi xsvtoys
Your schema (post-27) -> page-4 -> A26 and B26: Wire-Color-Code 93-2 = Gray-Yellow. 57-8 = White-Orange. 27-2 = Blue-Orange. 85-5 = Black-White. Greetings Rolf

#38 8 years ago

Hi xsvtoys
remarks on "Reading schematics": Below the "Plug Reference Table" see the text "Wires enclosed in ... Number-16 gauge ..." ? Nice to know (No-16-gauge) ?

On the schema "Bon Voyage" I DID NOT FIND THIS (following) TEXT (on Wms / Gtb schema it is): "The schema is drawn after a game has started for Player-1, the reset (Score-Wheels etc.) is done, the first ball lays in the "Launching Lane (ready for entering the playfield)" AND THE LINE-CORD IS PULLED !
That means: The Relays in the Relay-Bank are reset. Interlock-Relays are in a stable state. "Relays with a Self-Hold-Switch-for-to-stay-pulled" loose current (Line-Cord pulled) and return to "beeing in state INACTIVE". I tell You no lie -> look schema-C10 -> the "Self-Hold-Switch on Lock-Relay" is drawn OPEN. (Also schema-A2: the switches on Lock-Relay). Also schema-A4: The Switch on the Game-Over-Relay is in the state: "Game-Over-Light is off".
Sometimes I do see a switch drawn in the schema and I am a bit confused: "Drawn open" - should it be closed ??? -> I look in the pin and push onto the anchor-plate of that relay and watch the switch: When the switch wants to open: Does it securely open ? And vice versa. INTERLOCK-Relays are hard to understand.

A schema is NOT an "exploded view" - it is abstract / idealized / does not show "reality in the pin". It shows "a connection is in-between HERE and THERE", but the way it is connected in the pin might be a bit different.
Example Transformer -> 10-amp-fuse -> through switch-on-delay-relay -> wire "Black-Red" and then a short "stub to Lug-on-coil-of-2-Coin-Unit-step-Up-Solenoid". The wire "Black-Red" goes further -> a short "stub to Lug-on-coil-of-Coin-Relay". The wire "Black-Red" goes further -> "...2nd-Coin-Chute-Relay" -> "...3rd-Coin-Chute-Relay" -> > ->

In reality (in the pin): On a given lug: TWO wires "Black-Red" are soldered-on ( one coming to the lug and the other one goes further to the next Coil-on-relay ...
In reality MAYBE 2nd-Coin-Chute-Relay and 3rd-Coin-Chute-Relay and 2-Coin-Unit are mounted close together and MAYBE there is a wire "Black-Red" from "Switch-on-Delay-Relay" to the 3rd-Coin-Chute-Relay and from that lug there is a BLANK wire to the lug-on-Coil-of-2nd-Coin-Chute-Relay and the BLANK wire runs to (and ends there) "Step-Up-Coil-on-2-Coin-Unit".

You must "think into the schema": "Where in the Logic of game-play is the pin right now" ? For example: The schema is drawn "Ball-1 is ready to be launched" - YOU are studying "Ball-2 is in play and the ball makes 500 points and therefore the Score-Motor is running and "Switch-XYZ-on-Score-Motor-3 must be (tempory) closed" ... Greetings Rolf

#41 8 years ago

Hi xsvtoys
a switch on a relay or on the Score-Motor I sometimes jumper using a Screw-Driver ( I hold the plastic handle).
The JPG in Your post-33 -> below the "Red 4" -> the Make-and-Break-Switch on the Score-Motor (drawn as a Brake-and-Make-Switch): Manually turn the Score-Motor into "Home-Position". Look at Your Pictures (post-39): Bottom -> Up, I see SCM-1A, SCM-1B, SCM-1C, SCM-1D, SCM-1E and on top SCM-1F. Carefully clean / inspect these 3 blades. In Home-Position it should be: Top-Blade is free (no contact) AND 2nd and 3rd (top -> down) blades should have contact. CAREFULLY hold the Screw-Driver onto that switch - so 2nd and 3rd blade are connected (NO OTHER CONNECTION). Push the Replay-Button -> does the Credit-Relay start pulling - does the Score-Motor start running ? Immediately take away the Screw-Driver. Greetings Rolf

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