(Topic ID: 270623)

Bally Eight Ball Troubleshooting help needed

By Tanstaafl

3 years ago


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  • 22 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by frunch
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    #1 3 years ago

    I recently bought a Bally Eight Ball from a local bar that went out of business. It was non-working when I bought it, but I had played it about a month before buying it. Anyhow, got it home and started troubleshooting this evening. The playfield lights all light up but it won't take quarters, won't initialize and none of the scoring numbers on the back box light up. Looking inside, it has a allteksystems MPU, I think the Ultimate version. Checking that, there is no 5V in at the MPU board 5v test point. I DO have appropriate power at all of the test points at the lower right of the backbox on the rectifier board.

    I has an original Bally solinoid driver board and I don't seem to have any 5V coming out of that board - I think that feeds the MPU board so maybe that's my problem? Anyhow, I'm about out of energy for the evening, so am quitting, but I did notice one thing I thought I'd include a picture of and ask for advice. It's the cap right next to the 5V regulator circuit on the solinoid driver board. The cap looks fresh so I'm wondering if it was recently replaced and hooked up incorrectly. The writing on the cap says "neg" right above the lead that goes to a "+" symbol on the board. Thoughts?

    Any ideas on what I should look at next?

    I've fond memories of this machine - I played it every weekend at a bar in Germany in the late 70's when I was a junior enlisted troop in the USAF, so am looking forward to getting it working.

    Greg

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    #2 3 years ago
    Quoted from Tanstaafl:

    It's the cap right next to the 5V regulator circuit on the solinoid driver board. The cap looks fresh so I'm wondering if it was recently replaced and hooked up incorrectly. The writing on the cap says "neg" right above the lead that goes to a "+" symbol on the board. Thoughts?

    That capacitor is installed correctly. There's a white line along the side of the capacitor indicating the negative leg side.
    If you look at both leg terminals under the capacitor, the negative terminal will have a hashed face rivet, that's what the "-NEG" writing on the capacitor you're looking at is indicating.

    Quoted from Tanstaafl:

    Any ideas on what I should look at next?

    Are you measuring 12 volts at the input of the 5V regulator - measure it at test point TP5 on the solenoid driver board.

    #3 3 years ago

    no 5v a lot of times is caused by the 12v unreg return wire between the driver board and rectifier board is burnt at either or both ends. its orange in color. Inspect the 20 pin rectifier board plug and top right plug of the driver board.

    The "ground mods" on the driver board shown in guides is a band aid fix a lot of times when that wire has gone open circuit but ultimately its a connector issue.

    #4 3 years ago

    Thanks for the hints - I've made a little progress. I cleaned up the connectors on the Solenoid board and got power to the MDU! The numerals on the backbox are not lighting up - the machine seems to be in some sort of demo mode. The scores all flash "00" then "201760" alternately. The pool balls in the center of the play field light up in turn. I've fiddled with it a bit but can't get it out of this demo mode into play mode. Hungry and taking a break to eat, but will get back to it shortly.

    #5 3 years ago

    Do you any credits? Drop a quarter or two in thru the coin slot, then push start and see what happens.

    BTW - you mentioned you cleaned the connectors on the SDB - that tells me you will need to replace those connectors, since that is only a temporary fix

    #6 3 years ago
    Quoted from Tanstaafl:

    Thanks for the hints - I've made a little progress. I cleaned up the connectors on the Solenoid board and got power to the MDU! The numerals on the backbox are not lighting up - the machine seems to be in some sort of demo mode. The scores all flash "00" then "201760" alternately. The pool balls in the center of the play field light up in turn. I've fiddled with it a bit but can't get it out of this demo mode into play mode. Hungry and taking a break to eat, but will get back to it shortly.

    They call that "attract mode'. 201760 is probably the current high score to date and the 00 is the last game played score.

    Sounds like you now have switch problems. Using the test button get into first solenoid test. Check that all the solenoids fire and let the game raise all the drop targets. Then get into switch test and see if the credit and start buttons register. The coin and start cabinet switches go through the right side bottom plug on the MPU.

    Also if you have no battery its possible to get a bad value saved into the current credit count audit (#5) that does not let the game start or coin up. With audit highlighted in test mode push the NMI audit clear button on the MPU to reset that audit back to zero. A lot of times its good to go through and clear all the audits if the board had been run with out a battery/NVRAM. These old bally games have no automatic way to detect and clear out corrupted memory.

    #7 3 years ago

    Made a little progress last evening. Got the flippers working, it takes coins and racks up credits. Now I can't start a game. If I press the start button, the solenoids for the pop bumpers activate in turn and if I press the button multiple times, players are added, but the ball doesn't kick out to start the game. What is that function called? On the Playfield Wiring Diagram, there is a "Outhole Ball Eject". Is that it?

    #8 3 years ago
    Quoted from Tanstaafl:

    Made a little progress last evening. Got the flippers working, it takes coins and racks up credits. Now I can't start a game. If I press the start button, the solenoids for the pop bumpers activate in turn and if I press the button multiple times, players are added, but the ball doesn't kick out to start the game. What is that function called? On the Playfield Wiring Diagram, there is a "Outhole Ball Eject". Is that it?

    Did you get into test mode? Now it sounds like you have momentary solenoid data problem.... ie Game wants the outhole to shooter lane coil, but bad solenoid data and you get pops instead.

    Check solenoid test and verify the solenoids fire in the proper order, none are skipped or fire twice/out of order. There is usually a card in the backbox or in the manual will tell you the order solenoids go. Nine times out of ten momentary solenoid data problem is related to connector problems at MPU J4 and driver J4. Very common problem. Battery leak wastes MPU j4 and driver J4 gets cracked solder joints.

    #9 3 years ago
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    #10 3 years ago

    off topic but chime "extra" ??? I never understood that. Why can't it just be chime 10,000? Is there any game where the extra chime is not 10K in value?

    #11 3 years ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    Is there any game where the extra chime is not 10K in value?

    This game
    Eight Ball doesn't have any 10k points.
    10k points didn't appear till Power Play / Mata Hari, earlier games don't have it.

    #12 3 years ago

    I seem to be having trouble with getting all the solenoids to fire. Only 4 or 5 fire. I think I'll just bite the bullet and change out the connectors to the MPU. I'll go on line an order a set with Big Daddy; that seems to be an efficient place to go with the sets he offers. Any suggestions on the best type of pin crimper to use? I have a cheap crimper/stripper that I use with generic electrical stuff, like crimping lugs, but don't know how well that'll work with these connectors.

    #13 3 years ago

    https://www.amazon.com/HT-225D-Cycle-Ratchet-Crimping-interchangeable/dp/B007JLN93S

    If you have a jumper wire - connect one end to ground and touch the other end to the metal tabs on the solenoid tabs. That will tell you if the connection from the driver board to the coil is good.

    #14 3 years ago
    Quoted from Tanstaafl:

    I seem to be having trouble with getting all the solenoids to fire. Only 4 or 5 fire. I think I'll just bite the bullet and change out the connectors to the MPU. I'll go on line an order a set with Big Daddy; that seems to be an efficient place to go with the sets he offers. Any suggestions on the best type of pin crimper to use? I have a cheap crimper/stripper that I use with generic electrical stuff, like crimping lugs, but don't know how well that'll work with these connectors.

    If you have a logic probe or even a DMM. You can go to the driver board 74154 chip. Using the schematic identify pins labeled A B C D. During solenoid test each one should stay mostly high (5v) but blip low (0v) occasionally. If you see one of those ABCD signals that is always high, that is where you can focus your connector work on.

    Don't forget solder joints too. The driver board is typically a single sided board with no plated through holes. Because of that the header pins (driver J4 for solenoid signals) are even more likely to get cracked over time. MPU J4 gets wasted by the leaking battery.

    Quoted from Quench:

    This game
    Eight Ball doesn't have any 10k points.
    10k points didn't appear till Power Play / Mata Hari, earlier games don't have it.

    I never realized that. Surprising they added the 4th chime just for the melodies for game start, power up, etc. Love the bally chimes, they sound great. Much rather have the chimes than the first generation sound board which is pretty lame sounding. Bally made a kit to put the sound board in early chime games but I'd almost want the reverse.... a chime box kit to retrofit chimes into games using the -32/-50 sound board.

    #15 3 years ago

    Yep the 4th chime was added for the melodies. Seems there were not many 3 note public domain tunes out there at the time. The electronic sounds were less expensive than building and assembling the 2 chime boxes. They also freed up 4 transistors for game features.

    #16 3 years ago

    Well, I'm stuck. Some of the solenoids fire twice, some don't fire at all. I've ordered some connectors from Big Daddy and plan on replacing the MPU connectors. I suppose I'll also pull the driver board and check the solder joints as recommended above. I hope the parts get here quickly...

    #17 3 years ago
    Quoted from Tanstaafl:

    Well, I'm stuck. Some of the solenoids fire twice, some don't fire at all.

    Sounds like you might have a problem with the solenoid expander board.
    If you go to lamp test mode, do you hear the solenoid expander relay at the front of the playfield clicking in unison with the lamps flashing on?

    The solenoid expander board is next to the left flipper mechanism. There's a lamp next to it that helps activate the expander relay which effectively switches banks of solenoids.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/eight-ball-deluxe-owner-club-guests-welcome-as-well/page/61#post-5639867

    #18 3 years ago

    Wrong game you had it correct earlier

    #19 3 years ago

    Assuming we talking about the original 8 ball and not deluxe, solenoids firing twice is a momentary solenoid data problem MPU J4 to driver J4 connector problem 9 out of 10 times. It is so super common that this problem comes up like once a week. MPU J4 gets wasted by batteries and driver j4 gets cracked solder joints is the typical cause.

    Put the game in solenoid test. Stick DMM set to volts DC lowest range. BLack lead on ground. Red lead probe driver board U2 Pin 20. Let the game go through an entire cycle of solenoids and observe that the voltage is normally 5v but occasionally dips down close to 0v for brief pulses. Then repeat the same test on driver U2 Pin 21, 22 and 23.

    The signal that stays at 5v always is the problem. Report back which pin stays high always.

    Shotgun fix is to repin MPU j4 and driver J4 both the male and female side and maybe replace MPU U11 PIA and its socket.... but its probably the connectors and not mpu u11.

    #20 3 years ago
    Quoted from slochar:

    Wrong game you had it correct earlier

    Doh!

    2 weeks later
    #21 3 years ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    Assuming we talking about the original 8 ball and not deluxe, solenoids firing twice is a momentary solenoid data problem MPU J4 to driver J4 connector problem 9 out of 10 times. It is so super common that this problem comes up like once a week. MPU J4 gets wasted by batteries and driver j4 gets cracked solder joints is the typical cause.
    Put the game in solenoid test. Stick DMM set to volts DC lowest range. BLack lead on ground. Red lead probe driver board U2 Pin 20. Let the game go through an entire cycle of solenoids and observe that the voltage is normally 5v but occasionally dips down close to 0v for brief pulses. Then repeat the same test on driver U2 Pin 21, 22 and 23.
    The signal that stays at 5v always is the problem. Report back which pin stays high always.
    Shotgun fix is to repin MPU j4 and driver J4 both the male and female side and maybe replace MPU U11 PIA and its socket.... but its probably the connectors and not mpu u11.

    OK, the parts finally arrived after waiting a long couple of weeks. I've replaced the connector on the MPU J4. I didn't see any need to replace the pins on the MPU as it is a new after market board. I also reheated all of the solder on the Solenoid Driver board, J4 just is case there was a cracked or cold solder joint. No luck - still some of the solenoids fire, some don't. I also did the test suggested above - testing the voltage on U2 pins 20-24. All of them drop from 5v from time to time. I only have a cheap Harbor Freight voltmeter, so I didn't see a big drop in voltage, but it definitely budged off of 5V. The other suggestion above is to replace MPU U11 which I haven't tried yet since the MPU board is new. I guess next I'll start tracing wires to make sure I don't have a broken wire somewhere between connectors. Any other suggestions would be welcome. Just to verify, it's the original eight ball, not the deluxe.

    #22 3 years ago

    Did you also re-pin the connector J4 on the solenoid driver board? That connector's at the other end of several of the wires carrying the data signals coming from J4 at the mpu.

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