(Topic ID: 226751)
Linked Games
Eight Ball
Bally, 1977
Topic Gallery
Port Matilda, PA
Quoted from tomdrum:That's is how I counted the chip legs. Every connector was plugged in when tested.
No worries, I'm just trying to work out why we're getting nonsensical results.
On the 16 pin 4543 chip on the display board I get:
Pin1 = Lo solid on, yellow pulse flashing
Pin2 = Hi and Lo solid on, yellow pulse flashing
Pin3 = Hi and Lo solid on, yellow pulse flashing
Pin4 = Hi and Lo solid on, yellow pulse flashing
Pin5 = Hi and Lo solid on, yellow pulse flashing
Pin7 = Hi dim, Lo solid on, yellow pulse flashing
This Callahan board is making diagnosis difficult because I don't have schematics for it. Have you got a good working standard Bally MPU board you can plug in?
Put the Playboy MPU in it as is, but disconnect the J4 connector from the solenoid driver board to prevent any solenoid issues.
Power it up and let us know if the game reaches attract mode ok (usual MPU LED flashes then goes dim).
Quoted from tomdrum:Installed the Playboy MPU, 7 flashes but the LED goes out after the 7th.
Is there anything behind the MPU board that could be shorting it to the rear metal shield? Do you have the 4 plastic standoffs between the MPU board and the backbox rails it attaches to?
Ok, with the Bally MPU board back in it - please leave it there for now while we work on this:
Grab your multimeter and set it to DC voltage. Put the black meter lead on MPU board TP4 (top right) and the red meter lead on MPU board TP5 near the bottom. What voltage do you measure?
Next, grab the logic probe, connect the black power lead to TP4 and the red power lead to TP5 both on the MPU board.
Tell us what the probe indicates on the U10 chip at pin 18 (bottom third leg from the right).
Also tell us what U10 chip at pin 39 (top second leg from the left) indicates.
And lastly what the small U12 chip at pin 3 (bottom third leg from the left, aka second from the right) indicates.
Quoted from tomdrum:MPU TP5 5.00 VDC. The U10 leg 18, U10 leg 39 and U12 leg 3 were all active. Hi-Low lit, LED flashing loud buzz.
So according to those readings, the MPU LED should be dim. The LEDs on those 40 year old boards are low intensity, so a dim Bally LED will be dimmer than a dim Alltek LED.
Are there any lights on the playfield switching on and off after the last MPU LED flash (to indicate it's performing game attract mode)?
On the MPU board at the U20 chip, can you probe:
Pin 3 =
Pin 6 =
Pin 1 =
Pin 10 =
Pin 13 =
Pin 5 =
Pin 7 =
Pin 2 =
Pin 9 =
Pin 11 =
Pin 12 =
Pin 14 =
U19 pin 4 =
Mpu crashing after 7 flashes and display issues is sometimes caused by the display interrupt generator. I think U11 and C16. It can pass the self test, but too many interrupts cause the MPU to crash instead of dimming. You can check the frequency coming out of U11( cant remember but maybe should be 380K hz I think). I would replace the cap first(looks like a green chicklet).
Quoted from Quench:So according to those readings, the MPU LED should be dim. The LEDs on those 40 year old boards are low intensity, so a dim Bally LED will be dimmer than a dim Alltek LED.
Are there any lights on the playfield switching on and off after the last MPU LED flash (to indicate it's performing game attract mode)?
Actually it is dim. I have a work light sitting on the PF pointing at the boards to see better. With it off there is a light glow from it. The PF lights are switching off and on as in attract mode. Do I need to do those pin tests now?
Quoted from tomdrum:Do I need to do those pin tests now?
Yes please do. They are signals on the MPU board that drive the displays.
Here's the readings. When stated active that means high & low lit, LED flashes and rapid buzzing. Some buzzed more intensely than others.
On the MPU board at the U20 chip, can you probe:
Pin 3 = Active
Pin 6 = Active
Pin 1 = Active
Pin 10 = Active
Pin 13 = Hi only, LED lit, buzzing
Pin 5 = Active
Pin 7 = Active
Pin 2 = Active
Pin 9 = Active
Pin 11 = Active
Pin 12 = Active
Pin 14 = Active
U19 pin 4 = Active
Quoted from tomdrum:Here's the readings. When stated active that means high & low lit, LED flashes and rapid buzzing. Some buzzed more intensely than others.
On the MPU board at the U20 chip, can you probe:
Pin 3 = Active
Pin 6 = Active
Pin 1 = Active
Pin 10 = Active
Pin 13 = Hi only, LED lit, buzzing
Pin 5 = Active
Pin 7 = Active
Pin 2 = Active
Pin 9 = Active
Pin 11 = Active
Pin 12 = Active
Pin 14 = Active
U19 pin 4 = Active
Good, ok so far so good. Next can you probe the following on the MPU board - these are the remaining display signals we haven't checked yet:
U10 pin 6 =
U10 pin 7 =
U10 pin 8 =
U10 pin 9 =
U11 pin 4 =
U11 pin 5 =
U11 pin 6 =
U11 pin 7 =
U11 pin 8 =
U11 pin 9 =
Quoted from tomdrum:All those pins were active.
Ok, that's good too - no surprise since it's a known working MPU board.
Can you confirm you've still got the orange glow at the bottom of the displays?
Can you do these for me on the J1 connector of that display which you probed the chip on. You'll need to insert the logic probe tip into the top of the connector where the wires go in so the tip touches the metal pin inside the connector.
These pins on that display connector should all have activity just like the MPU board chips you just probed above.
Pin 4=
Pin 5=
Pin 6=
Pin 7=
Pin 8=
Pin 9=
Pin 10=
Pin 15=
Pin 16=
Pin 17=
Pin 18=
Pin 19=
Displays do have the orange glow. Results:
Pin 4= Active
Pin 5= Active
Pin 6= Active
Pin 7= Active
Pin 8= Active
Pin 9= Active
Pin 10= Hi lit, no LED does buzz
Pin 15= Active
Pin 16= Hi lit, no LED does buzz
Pin 17= Hi lit, no LED does buzz
Pin 18= Hi lit, no LED does buzz
Pin 19= Hi lit, no LED does buzz
Quoted from tomdrum:Hi lit, no LED does buzz
So some of those signals aren't reaching the displays properly.
Grab your multimeter and put it in ohms resistance mode (where the omega symbol is). When measuring resistance, the machine must be OFF.
Measure the resistance between: (put either meter lead at the MPU chip, the other meter lead at the display point)
MPU U10 pin 6 and Display connector pin 19 =
MPU U10 pin 7 and Display connector pin 18 =
MPU U10 pin 8 and Display connector pin 17 =
MPU U10 pin 9 and Display connector pin 16 =
MPU U19 pin 4 and Display connector pin 10 =
MPU U10 pin 6 and Display chip pin 5 =
MPU U10 pin 7 and Display chip pin 3 =
MPU U10 pin 8 and Display chip pin 2 =
MPU U10 pin 9 and Display chip pin 4 =
MPU U19 pin 4 and Display chip pin 7 =
If you see the letter 'K' or 'M' when measuring resistance please report the letter on the right of the resistance value, i.e. if the meter shows 1.20 and the letter 'K', the resistance is 1.20K
MPU U10 pin 6 and Display connector pin 19 = 1215
MPU U10 pin 7 and Display connector pin 18 = 1206
MPU U10 pin 8 and Display connector pin 17 = 1208
MPU U10 pin 9 and Display connector pin 16 = 656M
MPU U19 pin 4 and Display connector pin 10 = 1222
MPU U10 pin 6 and Display chip pin 5 = 21.6K
MPU U10 pin 7 and Display chip pin 3 = 21.2K
MPU U10 pin 8 and Display chip pin 2 = 21.1K
MPU U10 pin 9 and Display chip pin 4 = 1.1M
MPU U19 pin 4 and Display chip pin 7 = 21.1K
You can see two abnormal resistance readings compared to the other readings both from MPU U10 pin 9.
That signal leaves the MPU board at MPU connector J1 pin 28 and goes to all displays so you've got a bad connection somewhere on that wire (white-green).
About a day ago I asked you to re-terminate that signal wire at that connector. Can you please check it again and re-terminate it if it's bad? That's MPU J1 pin 28 (white-green wire).
Firstly, I want to explain the resistor readings:
On the MPU board, there are four signals coming out of the U10 PIA chip that produce amongst other things an encoded number to display. These four signals come out of U10 on pins 6 to 9 and are known as the U10 PA4 to PA7 outputs respectively. From there they each go through 1.2k ohm resistors to connector pin header J1.
The first measurements you took in post #122 were essentially between those pins at the U10 chip through the resistors then to the displays. Hence the good readings of around 1200 ohms.
DisplayBCD_MPU_Path.jpg
The last measurements you took in post #122 were essentially between those pins at the U10 chip through the MPU board 1.2k resistors then to the displays and through more resistors on the display board (whose value is 20k ohms) then to the 16 pin decoder chip. Hence the good readings around 21.2k ohms (20k + 1.2k).
DisplayBCD_Display_Path.jpg
In the tests we've done so far, your logic probe has indicated activity on the U10 PIA signals producing the encoded numbers to display.
Your multimeter has told us you have (corrected) continuity from MPU U10 through to a display board in post #122.
However your logic probe tests at the display board in post #120 indicate these particular signals are not active.
It doesn't make sense. I'm missing something but what?
On the MPU board at the bottom of the J1 connector to the right there are a few resistors marked R80, R81, R82 and R83. There is also a resistor higher up marked R89.
Can you hook up your logic probe and probe these five resistors:
R83 upper leg =
R83 lower leg =
R82 upper leg =
R82 lower leg =
R81 upper leg =
R81 lower leg =
R80 upper leg =
R80 lower leg =
R89 left leg =
R89 right leg =
Can you also post some clear pictures of the back of the hinged lamp/display wood panel?
Can you hook up your logic probe and probe these five resistors:
R83 upper leg = High, no LED or buzz
R83 lower leg = Active
R82 upper leg = High, no LED or buzz
R82 lower leg = Active
R81 upper leg = High, no LED or buzz
R81 lower leg = Active
R80 upper leg = High, no LED or buzz
R80 lower leg = Active
R89 left leg = High, no LED or buzz
R89 right leg = Active, weaker buzz/flash than the others.
I re-checked all the display connectors with the logic probe and 10, 16, 17, 18 and 19 are still not active.
DSCN3630 (resized).JPGDSCN3631 (resized).JPGDSCN3632 (resized).JPGDSCN3633 (resized).JPGQuoted from tomdrum:Can you hook up your logic probe and probe these five resistors:
R83 upper leg = High, no LED or buzz
R83 lower leg = Active
R82 upper leg = High, no LED or buzz
R82 lower leg = Active
R81 upper leg = High, no LED or buzz
R81 lower leg = Active
R80 upper leg = High, no LED or buzz
R80 lower leg = Active
R89 left leg = High, no LED or buzz
R89 right leg = Active, weaker buzz/flash than the others.I re-checked all the display connectors with the logic probe and 10, 16, 17, 18 and 19 are still not active.
Somethings got to be shorting all those signals at the displays to 5V. But where and so many signals?
Can you disconnect all 5 displays. Then reprobe one of the display connectors at 10, 16, 17, 18 and 19?
Did that. When all were disconnected those connector pins were fully active. I started then with player 3, plugged it in and those same pins were fully active. Plugged in player 4 ( with player 3 connected) and those pins were high only. Disconnected that and plugged in player 1. Those pins were fully active. Then connected player 2 (with 1 & 3 still plugged in) and they were high only. Same with match/credit display, high only. Even with just the player 3 & 1 connected the displays weren't lit.
I also pulled all the plastic screw down wire holders that held the display wiring to the back box to make sure none of it was touching the back box light wiring. Pulled the wiring away and looked for a worn wire than might have been contacting the lighting braid. Didn't see anything and retested. Players #1 and #4 are still active in those pins. When others are plugged in they fail.
Quoted from tomdrum:I also pulled all the plastic screw down wire holders that held the display wiring to the back box to make sure none of it was touching the back box light wiring. Pulled the wiring away and looked for a worn wire than might have been contacting the lighting braid. Didn't see anything and retested. Players #1 and #4 are still active in those pins. When others are plugged in they fail.
I meant players 1 & 3
So if you take out the 3rd display and move it into the display 2 position what happens to those signals?
Moving the player 3 display with player 1 still connected to player 2 position it read active at all the suspect pins. I then moved the former player 2 display into player 3 and plugged it in. Now both player 2 & 3 both read high on the suspect pins.
Quoted from tomdrum:I tested all these displays in a working game this past weekend and they were 100%
Is there anything in the display cradles that could be causing shorts under the display circuit boards?
Hook up one or two extra displays so those signals are stuck high again at the display connector.
With the machine OFF, set your multimeter back on ohms resistance mode. Want you to measure the resistance from those signals to 5 volts, and then to ground, then do it again with the leads swapped around. Each test will probably give you similar readings across all the display connector positions in question.
Red lead on TP1 (+5V), black lead at connector positions 10, 16, 17, 18 then 19 =
Red lead on TP3 (GND), black lead at connector positions 10, 16, 17, 18 then 19 =
Black lead on TP1 (+5V), red lead at connector positions 10, 16, 17, 18 then 19 =
Black lead on TP3 (GND), red lead at connector positions 10, 16, 17, 18 then 19 =
I'm looking for signs of short circuits.
Red lead on TP1 (+5V), black lead at connector positions 10, 16, 17, 18 then 19 = 4.21M - 4.45M
Red lead on TP3 (GND), black lead at connector positions 10, 16, 17, 18 then 19 = 4.43M - 5.22M
Black lead on TP1 (+5V), red lead at connector positions 10, 16, 17, 18 then 19 = 4.24M - 4.48M
Black lead on TP3 (GND), red lead at connector positions 10, 16, 17, 18 then 19 = #10 3.38M #16-#19 4.84K - 5.30K
The only readings you got that are about right are the last set. The first three sets are showing open circuits.
With the machine OFF, can you measure the resistance between (doesn't matter which way you put the leads):
TP4 on the MPU board and TP3 on the display board
TP4 on the MPU board and the ground wire braid in the back box
TP5 on the MPU board and TP1 on the display board
Quoted from tomdrum:TP4 on the MPU board and TP3 on the display board - 2.62M
You're missing ground at the displays - you've measured very high resistance there indicating an open circuit.
Can you measure the following resistances to confirm:
TP3 on the display board to the ground wire braid in the back box
TP3 on the display board to the "GND" test point on the solenoid driver board
If both of these read in the vicinity of 2.62M ohms and not 0.2, then please check and re-terminate pin 20 (brown wire) of the J3 connector at the solenoid driver board.
Quoted from tomdrum:Excellent, pin #20 was the culprit. Displays working.
Phew.. second problem down, next onto the solenoid issue.
Now that you have displays, give me as much detail as you can from solenoid test mode. If and when solenoids activate with relation to the solenoid test mode list in the manual.
Callahan MPU back in, all displays 100%. Running thru diagnostics tests. Only solenoid that fires is the right sling shot. it's like it's confused with that solenoid, fires instead of chimes. Switch test shows lower pop bumper switch stuck but the switch is open.
Quoted from tomdrum:Switch test shows lower pop bumper switch stuck but the switch is open.
If the pop bumper switch has a capacitor on it, clip one of its legs close to the lug. The capacitor might be shorted.
Have you put the Alltek (or whatever after market) Solenoid Driver board back in the machine?
Quoted from tomdrum:During the solenoid test the right sling fires at #2 (Knocker), #4 (Chime 10), #9 (Right pop bumper) and #12 which is the right sling shot.
Ok looking it up now, will be back in a few moments. Till then take care of the pop bumper switch capacitor.
Quoted from tomdrum:During the solenoid test the right sling fires at #2 (Knocker), #4 (Chime 10), #9 (Right pop bumper) and #12 which is the right sling shot.
It looks like you've got 2 signals from the MPU board to the solenoid driver board (SDB) with bad connections. I'm not sure which end the problems are without doing further tests, so please check both ends and re-terminate where bad:
MPU J4 pin 2 --> Orange-Black wire --> SDB J4 pin 4
MPU J4 pin 1 --> Red-White wire -----> SDB J4 pin 3
Quoted from tomdrum:Game starts now.
Great!
The clipped capacitor on the pop bumper will cause it to intermittently not score, and it might not feel as "snappy" i.e. react when hit real fast.
Replace with 0.047uf 100V capacitors.
Make sure there are working capacitors on the bank shot green star rollover button switch, the 8 ball standup target switch and the 5/13 ball and 6/14 ball standup targets.
There is an Eight Ball machine at a barcade near me with the caps missing on most of these switches and the game is unplayable because most of the time when these switches are hit, the game doesn't see them.
Quoted from Quench:Great!
The clipped capacitor on the pop bumper will cause it to intermittently not score, and it might not feel as "snappy" i.e. react when hit real fast.
Replace with 0.047uf 100V capacitors.
Make sure there are working capacitors on the bank shot green star rollover button switch, the 8 ball standup target switch and the 5/13 ball and 6/14 ball standup targets.
There is an Eight Ball machine at a barcade near me with the caps missing on most of these switches and the game is unplayable because most of the time when these switches are hit, the game doesn't see them.
Yes thank you. I already replaced that capacitor. The pop bumper works fine now. I hand tested all the other switches and they seem fine. I got it to near 100 % tonight except for a few bad light sockets. I'm waiting to hear on a better PF from another Pinsider before I get too involved in the PF. It has a really nice BG that I already sealed and installed new chrome. Cabinet needs a re-paint but that will wait till spring. This plus Xenon was a game I played a lot when I was younger.
Next up Night Rider, have that one working with a few issues. After that a Playboy and Strikes and Spares. Two titles I've had and sold. But missed....
Thank you again! I learned a lot from this fix.
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