Eight Ball
Bally, 1977Bringing a Eight Ball back to life. It's currently running a new Weebly Rectifier board, Alltek SDB and a Tom Callahan MPU. All connector pins were replaced. I'm only getting 6 flashes on the MPU meaning I'm missing the 43VDC. When I 1st turn it on I get zero flashes, on a 2nd start I get 6. I had an Alltek MPU in it and it did the same thing. I have 43V on the left side of the R113 on the MPU and all voltages were correct when it was running the Alltek MPU. Ideas anyone?
found this on pinwiki, maybe your sound board is the issue? try to boot with sound board disconnected.
One interesting anomaly is that the 7th flash will not occur, if there is a bad 1N4004 diode (CR3) used on -32 / -50 sound boards. On these two sound boards, the +12VDC used on the boards is derived from the +43VDC solenoid voltage, and isolated by CR3
Quoted from Lovef2k:One interesting anomaly is that the 7th flash will not occur, if there is a bad 1N4004 diode (CR3) used on -32 / -50 sound boards. On these two sound boards, the +12VDC used on the boards is derived from the +43VDC solenoid voltage, and isolated by CR3
I had this exact same fault with diode CR3 being short circuited on a -50 sound board I was repairing a month ago.
Having said that, Eight Ball is a chimes game - no sound board.
Quoted from tomdrum:When I 1st turn it on I get zero flashes
Not even a flicker?
Quoted from tomdrum:Ideas anyone?
Does the same problem occur when you disconnect J1, J2 and J3 from the MPU board?
Quoted from Quench:I had this exact same fault with diode CR3 being short circuited on a -50 sound board I was repairing a month ago.
Having said that, Eight Ball is a chimes game - no sound board.Not even a flicker?
It lights up and stays lit, no flicker.
Does the same problem occur when you disconnect J1, J2 and J3 from the MPU board?
Yes, 1st time I turn it one solid LED, 2nd time 6 flashes.
Did the Alltek MPU board also give you a solid LED on powerup?
I'm not familiar with the "Tom Callahan MPU" board. Is it a replica of the Bally -35 board or his own re-design?
Quoted from Quench:Did the Alltek MPU board also give you a solid LED on powerup?
I'm not familiar with the "Tom Callahan MPU" board. Is it a replica of the Bally -35 board or his own re-design?
Alltek board worked exactly the same. Tom's boards from 15 years ago had separate game ROM's you could change for different games in the U2 & U6 positions. I have used this board in several different games and it works well. Alltek's are better since you don't have to change the game ROM's. Since the MPU in this game had massive acid damage, I figured I use it rather than just let it sit. I keep a set of Alltek's to get games running and then usually put OE boards back in after repairs.
DSCN3497 (resized).JPGQuoted from Quench:If you've got a logic probe, what does it tell you when you probe the Zero Crossing test point?
Yes I have a logic probe although I'm not skilled with it. What voltage should I hook it up to?
Quoted from tomdrum:Yes I have a logic probe although I'm not skilled with it. What voltage should I hook it up to?
Since you're checking logic, you hook it up to logic 5V power. i.e. black lead to ground and red lead to 5 volts. Looks like test hookup points for ground and 5V are at the top right corner of the MPU board.
The MPU board has a "Zero Crossing Detector 120Hz" description pointing to a dot that's its test point.
Quoted from Quench:Since you're checking logic, you hook it up to logic 5V power. i.e. black lead to ground and red lead to 5 volts. Looks like test hookup points for ground and 5V are at the top right corner of the MPU board.
The MPU board has a "Zero Crossing Detector 120Hz" description pointing to a dot that's its test point.
Logic probe lights up and has a rapid buzzing sound at the test point.
Can you post a picture of your logic probe hooked up so we can see what indicators and switches it has?
Quoted from Quench:Can you post a picture of your logic probe hooked up so we can see what indicators and switches it has?
I bought the exact one from TerryB's guide
pasted_image (resized).pngQuoted from Quench:Ok, put the switches on Pulse and TTL.
Which LEDs are coming on at that test point?
The high and low both light up.
Well you're getting pulsing on that signal which is all that's needed to pass the 7th LED flash.
What does the logic probe indicate at pin 18 of U10? And what voltage do you measure at this pin 18 of U10 ?
Quoted from Quench:Well you're getting pulsing on that signal which is all that's needed to pass the 7th LED flash.
What does the logic probe indicate at pin 18 of U10? And what voltage do you measure at this pin 18 of U10 ?
Logic probe reads the same as the last test point. It's only showing .280 VDC
Another thing I just noticed. Although the game won't start, I noticed a few of the PF lights seemed to be going into attract mode. I tried the diagnostic button and it will make the lamps flash. Subsequent tests do not work. I pulled the OE lamp board and installed an Alltek and more light were lit, about 1/2 total. New bulbs didn't help. I didn't re-pin any lamp board connectors, so that's down the road for now.
Quoted from Quench:I had this exact same fault with diode CR3 being short circuited on a -50 sound board I was repairing a month ago.
Having said that, Eight Ball is a chimes game - no sound board.Not even a flicker?
Does the same problem occur when you disconnect J1, J2 and J3 from the MPU board?
I was wondering if 8Ball was a chime game when I posted this, now I know 
Quoted from Lovef2k:I was wondering if 8Ball was a chime game when I posted this, now I know
Easy way to remember is all the -17 games are chimers.
Quoted from tomdrum:The high and low both light up.
Quoted from tomdrum:Logic probe reads the same as the last test point. It's only showing .280 VDC
Your Zero Crossing detector circuit is working. You're getting pulsing activity and the schematics list the voltage on pin 18 of U10 as being 0.25V which you're in the ball park of.
Are you sure it's failing at the 7th flash and not the 6th flash?
The Alltek board uses a reset generator device that holds the board in reset longer than a standard Bally board. It results in the power on flicker looking more like a flash and some people incorrectly count it as a flash.
Any chance you can post a video showing the power on LED sequence?
Did you try disconnecting J1, J2 and J3 from the MPU board which I asked earlier?
I did disconnect the J1, J2 and J3 and it made no difference. I pulled the Callahan MPU and reinstalled the Alltek to compare fire up sequence. 1st start up the LED didn't light. 2nd start up it went 6 flashes and stopped. The Alltek upon start up does a quick double flash and then a short pause before starting the flash sequence. That's how it worked in other games I've had it installed in. The Callahan MPU did put the lights into attract mode and allowed the diagnostic button to flash the lights. The Alltek doesn't get that far.
Quoted from tomdrum:The Alltek upon start up does a quick double flash and then a short pause before starting the flash sequence.
How many flashes are you getting after the short pause?
Have you re-tested the Alltek in one of your other games?
Quoted from tomdrum:The Callahan MPU did put the lights into attract mode and allowed the diagnostic button to flash the lights.
So on second power up your Callahan board is booting. Can you play a game or are there other issues?
With the Alltek I get 6 flashes after the pause, same as the Callahan MPU. Only difference between the two is that the Callahan MPU would put the lights into attract mode but nothing else functioned. I'll test the Allek in another game just to be sure.
Quoted from tomdrum:With the Alltek I get 6 flashes after the pause, same as the Callahan MPU.
So you're actually getting all LED flashes then.
Does the MPU LED then go dim which it should do or does it go off completely?
Let us know what happens with the Alltek in another game.
This is weird. Game is getting 7 flashes and won't start. I googled this issue on Pinside and saw several other posts. Issues similar but not the same. Shorting coin door start switch, pulled mine, nope. Displays causing problem, disconnected all of mine, nope. Saw a post that grounds could be a problem. This game had massive acid damage on the original MPU and it even leached onto the left MPU bracket. Pulled it and cleaned it and sanded the ground area near the screw. Nope. Ran a continuity test from the lower cabinet ground braid to the boards, all good. I'm stumped. Looked at the re-pinned connectors and nothing looks bad. Jiggle tested the connectors as well. Ideas anyone?
When the MPU board is running normally, the LED should stay dim. This is an indication that it's executing code normally particularly the display generator code.
If the MPU LED goes out it means the game has crashed or the display generator on the MPU board is faulty. If it's happening with two different MPU boards then it's more likely a crash and my first guess would be bad 5V power to the MPU board.
Since 5V power comes from the solenoid driver board, have you tried another solenoid driver board?
Do you read zero volts between ground in the chassis and the GND test point on the SDB and the GND test point on the MPU board when the machine is on?
Are you getting slightly over 5V power to the MPU board?
If you're doing continuity tests with your meter in buzzer/diode mode, that can give you false readings as it can buzz even when there is up to 150 ohms resistance. Always do continuity tests in resistance mode and look for zero ohms.
I put the Callahan MPU back in. The LED does glow dim after the 7th flash. It's currently running an Alltek SDB, I do have known good OE I can install.
I checked the voltage on the grounds, MPU .065 V and SDB .010 V
The 5V on the SDB is 5.06 and on the MPU it's 4.81
I checked the solenoids under the PF and the flipper coils are showing 43V and other coils nothing. The strange part is that if I run the diagnostic tests, the lights will flash, displays nothing, and when I get to the solenoid test the LED's turn red on the SDB like it's cycling thru them.
Your 5V on the MPU board looks low to me..
Try the factory SDB.
Quoted from tomdrum:I checked the solenoids under the PF and the flipper coils are showing 43V and other coils nothing.
Sounds like the playfield 1 amp slow blow fuse is blown.
Quoted from Quench:Your 5V on the MPU board looks low to me..
Try the factory SDB.Sounds like the playfield 1 amp slow blow fuse is blown.
Put in an OE SDB and now there's an even 5.0V on the MPU. Found a broken fuse holder under the PF which I missed because the "staple here" cardboard was curled around it. Now have power to all the solenoids but still won't start a game.
The displays are all out. I installed a known good one just in case all 5 were bad. They do have a orange glow at the bottom but no digits.
Have you repinned any of the connectors? If the corrosion damage was that bad that it leached onto the bracket, it's probably also leached up into the connectors and into the wiring. It can get so bad that you have to cut significantly up the wire harness to get clean wire (the corrosion shows as a powdery substance in the wire and the wire will appear dull). I had to chop about 6 inches off my Night Rider for this reason. Hopefully by the time Bally made 8 ball they were using thicker than the 26 gauge wire NR used, which didn't help the situation.
Quoted from slochar:Have you repinned any of the connectors? If the corrosion damage was that bad that it leached onto the bracket, it's probably also leached up into the connectors and into the wiring. It can get so bad that you have to cut significantly up the wire harness to get clean wire (the corrosion shows as a powdery substance in the wire and the wire will appear dull). I had to chop about 6 inches off my Night Rider for this reason. Hopefully by the time Bally made 8 ball they were using thicker than the 26 gauge wire NR used, which didn't help the situation.
I re-pinned every connector, wiring was clean.
Ok, so you're getting 5.0V at the MPU board. What voltage are you getting at test point TP1 (5V) on the Bally SDB?
Quoting what you said above:
Quoted from tomdrum:The 5V on the SDB is 5.06 and on the MPU it's 4.81
You were getting 0.25V voltage loss in the wiring from the SDB to the MPU board and that's a cause for concern. This is connector related. When you repinned the cables, is it possible corrosion got into the wires at the MPU side (J4 connector) and when you repinned you didn't get clean metal contact?
Quoted from Quench:Ok, so you're getting 5.0V at the MPU board. What voltage are you getting at test point TP1 (5V) on the Bally SDB?
Quoting what you said above:You were getting 0.25V voltage loss in the wiring from the SDB to the MPU board and that's a cause for concern. This is connector related. When you repinned the cables, is it possible corrosion got into the wires at the MPU side (J4 connector) and when you repinned you didn't get clean metal contact?
I tried another SDB in it tonight. Voltage very close. From the cabinet ground to the TP1 on SDB 5.32V, from the ground loop on the board 5.30V. To the MPU cabinet ground 5.04, to the ground on the board it's 5.00 to the 5V test point.
I've re-pinned 100's of connectors, but that doesn't mean I haven't had bad crimps. When I stripped the wires on these they were clean, no green corrosion, dust or other things that concerned me. My 58 year old eyes (with readers!) might have deceived me however.
Quoted from tomdrum:tried another SDB in it tonight. Voltage very close. From the cabinet ground to the TP1 on SDB 5.32V
Much better.
Quoted from tomdrum:To the MPU cabinet ground 5.04
You're still getting loss. What voltage are you getting on the Callahan board to the left of inductor "L2" which is near the MPU J4 connector and where 5V enters the MPU board?
So one side of the L2 inductor has 5.27 volts, the other side at the 5V test point has 5.0 volts. That's 0.27 volts differential.
I checked one of my machines earlier across that inductor and I get 0.008 volts across it which is negligible and what I expect.
Can you measure the voltage across that L2 inductor (put the red meter lead on the left leg and black meter lead on the right leg) to confirm the voltage drop across it?
Does that inductor get warm/hot to touch? Seems like something is loading down your 5V supply at the MPU board which is possibly making it unstable and causing the CPU to crash.
Can you report the other voltages on the MPU board test points?
Quoted from Quench:So one side of the L2 inductor has 5.27 volts, the other side at the 5V test point has 5.0 volts. That's 0.27 volts differential.
I checked one of my machines earlier across that inductor and I get 0.008 volts across it which is negligible and what I expect.
Can you measure the voltage across that L2 inductor (put the red meter lead on the left leg and black meter lead on the right leg) to confirm the voltage drop across it?
Does that inductor get warm/hot to touch? Seems like something is loading down your 5V supply at the MPU board which is possibly making it unstable and causing the CPU to crash.
Can you report the other voltages on the MPU board test points?
Sorry for the delay, was at the York show.
Here's the voltage tests:
L2 5.27 V on left side, 5.0 V at test point.
Voltage drop across it (red left, black right) 0.00 to 0.001 L1 does not get warm
L1 13.83 left, 13.70 right
R113 44V left, 21.8 right
These were the only voltage tests on the Callahan board.
Quoted from tomdrum:L2 5.27 V on left side, 5.0 V at test point.
Voltage drop across it (red left, black right) 0.00 to 0.001 L1 does not get warm
Weird, the right leg of inductor L2 goes to test point TP5 (5volts) on a Bally board which is the 5 volt power rail for the board, yet your 5V test point is reading 0.27 volts lower. Without schematics for the Callahan board I have no idea what's it's doing. What supply voltage do you measure on the chips on the board - eg pin 8 of U12?
Quoted from tomdrum:The strange part is that if I run the diagnostic tests, the lights will flash, displays nothing, and when I get to the solenoid test the LED's turn red on the SDB like it's cycling thru them.
Is the MPU LED still dim at this point or has it gone off?
What voltage are you measuring at TP5 on the SDB? It could be a suspect bridge rectifier on the 12V line at the rectifier board.
Have you tried a transformer/rectifier board combo from another game?
Quoted from Quench:Weird, the right leg of inductor L2 goes to test point TP5 (5volts) on a Bally board which is the 5 volt power rail for the board, yet your 5V test point is reading 0.27 volts lower. Without schematics for the Callahan board I have no idea what's it's doing. What supply voltage do you measure on the chips on the board - eg pin 8 of U12?
Is the MPU LED still dim at this point or has it gone off?
What voltage are you measuring at TP5 on the SDB? It could be a suspect bridge rectifier on the 12V line at the rectifier board.
Have you tried a transformer/rectifier board combo from another game?
Assuming the top right pin is #8 it shows 3.34V. TP5 on SDB is 14.5V. LED goes dim after the 7th flash. I've tried an OE rectifier and a Weebly unit. Both were the same.
Quoted from tomdrum:Assuming the top right pin is #8 it shows 3.34V.
Nup, pin 8 is top left. See below for how chip pins are numbered:
BTW can you please summarise what's going on again.
Both Alltek and Callahan fail to start on powerup with solid LEDs right?
Alltek passes all LED tests but doesn't hit attract mode and the LED goes off.
Callahan passes all LED tests, LED stays dim but you have no displays.
Is this correct?
Ok, U12 pin 8 is 5.00V. To summarize, This morning I pulled the Alltek MPU out of another project game I'm working on and re-installed it to compare to the Callahan. Both are the same now. Each has 7 flashes and then the LED goes dim. After that the right slingshot fires several times. Both will go into attract mode with the lights only. Both allow diagnostic light test. No displays or solenoids work.
Quoted from tomdrum:Ok, U12 pin 8 is 5.00V.
So you're losing a quarter of a volt on the 5V supply rail from where it enters the MPU board to the logic chips. Unless you can point me to schematics for this Callahan board I can't tell if this is by design or something's wrong. Having said that 5.00V at the logic chips is in spec.
So do both boards now boot first time on powerup? What change has fixed this? Swapping the SDB?
Quoted from tomdrum:After that the right slingshot fires several times.
Would you say it's activating that slingshot instead of a chime when it would normally play the power on welcome tune?
Disconnect J4 from the solenoid driver board. Do the displays now work?
Then disconnect J1 from the MPU board, and attempt to go to solenoid test mode by pressing the red coin door button 3 times. Do any solenoids activate?
Quoted from Quench:So you're losing a quarter of a volt on the 5V supply rail from where it enters the MPU board to the logic chips. Unless you can point me to schematics for this Callahan board I can't tell if this is by design or something's wrong. Having said that 5.00V at the logic chips is in spec.
So do both boards now boot first time on powerup? What change has fixed this? Swapping the SDB?Would you say it's activating that slingshot instead of a chime when it would normally play the power on welcome tune?
Disconnect J4 from the solenoid driver board. Do the displays now work?
Then disconnect J1 from the MPU board, and attempt to go to solenoid test mode by pressing the red coin door button 3 times. Do any solenoids activate?
It boots on the 1st powerup usually. Didn't today for the 1st time in awhile. The sling does activate after the MPU LED does dim about the time a start up tune would play. I disconnected the J4 on the SDB nothing changed except the sling didn't activate. With the MPU J1 disconnected nothing in test mode would work.
With your multimeter measure the voltage at TP1 (+5V), TP2 (+190V) and TP3 (GND) on the display board.
Now get the logic probe back out and hook it up to the MPU board - black clip on GND test point, red clip on the +5V test point.
In attract mode, put the logic probe in the connector of any display at the following pins - these should all have activity. Please report the probe results:
Pin 4=
Pin 5=
Pin 6=
Pin 7=
Pin 8=
Pin 9=
Pin 10=
Pin 15=
Pin 16=
Pin 17=
Pin 18=
Pin 19=
Do not put the logic probe in pin 1 where the display high voltage is, you'll blow the logic probe.
Quoted from Quench:With your multimeter measure the voltage at TP1 (+5V), TP2 (+190V) and TP3 (GND) on the display board.
TP1 voltage 5.57V TP2 242V
Pin 4= Buzz Hi - Low lit
Pin 5= Same
Pin 6= Same
Pin 7= Same
Pin 8= Same
Pin 9= Same
Pin 10= Solid sound Hi Lit
Pin 15= Humming noise, not buzz Hi lit
Pin 16= Solid sound Hi lit
Pin 17= Solid sound Hi lit
Pin 18= Solid sound Hi lit
Pin 19= Solid sound Hi lit
Quoted from tomdrum:TP1 voltage 5.57V TP2 242V
Where are you connecting your black meter lead? because your 5V is high. Also your display voltage is way too high as though the display regulator circuit transistors on your solenoid driver board are all shorted out (typical failure).
Which solenoid driver board do you have installed in the game right now?
Quoted from tomdrum:Pin 4= Buzz Hi - Low lit
Is this the only pin showing any Low activity with the green LED with on your probe?, i.e. are all those other pins only indicating red High?
Quoted from Quench:Where are you connecting your black meter lead? because your 5V is high. Also your display voltage is way too high as though the display regulator circuit transistors on your solenoid driver board are all shorted out (typical failure).
Which solenoid driver board do you have installed in the game right now?Is this the only pin showing any Low activity with the green LED with on your probe?, i.e. are all those other pins only indicating red High?
I used the TP 3 on the display for ground. It's currently running an OE SDB which was updated. I can install an Alltek again although when it was in previously the displays didn't work. The high low activity was on pins 4 thru 9.
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