(Topic ID: 313664)

Bally Eight Ball outhole kicker not working

By dkocian

2 years ago


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  • 17 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by BigAl56
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 2 years ago

Trying to bring a Bally Eight Ball back to life. I cannot get the outhole solenoid to fire and return the ball to the plunger. However, I did a quick short of the solenoid to ground and the solenoid fired just fine. 43v on the yellow wire and proof of a good solenoid lead me to believe it is either the switch or the transistor. I followed the brown with yellow wire back to J1, Pin 5 on the solenoid board and did a quick resistance check on transistor Q4. It is not shorted to ground, so not blowing fuses, but maybe that circuit is my problem? Is there a way to test the transistor Q4 circuit without removing connections on the solenoid board? I hate doing that only to find out it was something else. For example, the switch for the outhole kicker is part of the switch matrix. When I close the switch, with the game on, other items on the board fire, which leads me to believe the switch is making contact fine. Before I go tearing into the transistor circuit, is there anything else I should be checking? That 43v is too high to use a logic probe on the circuit so I'm not sure how to check it.
I am having the identical problem with the side kickback solenoid. Fires fine when shorted and transistor shows resistance. Harder to diagnose this one since it does not fire all the time when the switch is closed.
I have two other solenoids not working (bottom bumper and extra chime) but I have tracked those back to transistors showing zero resistance so I know I have to replace those transistors or something in those circuits.
Would appreciate any guidance.

#2 2 years ago

Easiest solution is to swap in a good know working SDB from another Bally game from 1977-1982 if you have one. Takes the board out of the equation.

I have found that that J2 connectors on the SDB and MPU are usually what causes the issues you describe. Did you re-pin any connectors yet? Weak connectors are the biggest problem in early Bally SS games. Plenty of info here on replacing the plugs and pins.

#4 2 years ago

Go into solenoid test mode. Do any solenoids activate at the wrong time with reference the the solenoid numbers listed in the manual?
Then go to switch test mode. When you activate the outhole switch does the number "08" flash on the player displays?

It's likely to be a connector issue as tomdrum said.
The Q4 transistor on the solenoid driver board can be tested in circuit without removing the board but first determine it's not a connector issue with the results of test modes.

EightBall_Solenoid-Switch_IDs16.pngEightBall_Solenoid-Switch_IDs16.png

#5 2 years ago

Also, think of a transistor on a classic Bally as a fuse. A lot of times they blow into pieces, melt down, and stop working even after they “test good”. Just replace this $1-$2 part whenever it’s in question. It’s good practice if you’ve not done it before. You will replace a LOT of them if you own older machines.

#6 2 years ago

Wow. Three great replies. I'll address them in order.

tomdrum - I have replaced a lot of the connectors with Molex. I love them. In this case, since I can make the solenoid fire by touching the circuit on the solenoid board, I don't think there is a bad connection. There is a Molex connector on J1 but I don't know when it was replaced. Thanks for the link to the article. It is a great article.

Quench - Thanks for the charts! I thought I had about every book or article written on all this but have never seen the chart laid out the way you did. Excellent. I have run the tests before, but ran them again today to make sure nothing changed. On the solenoid test, they all fired except for the following (my explanation follows):
01 - outhole kicker - that is the problem I am trying to fix
03 - side return kicker - also a problem I am trying to fix
07 - extra chime - known problem with transistor circuit so I disconnected the solenoid
10 - bottom thumper-bumper - known problem with transistor circuit so I disconnected the solenoid
13 - coin lockout door - disconnected
14 - flipper - I didn't hold them in to test but they are working fine. I just replaced one of the solenoids on the left flipper since the primary burned out but the secondary still worked.

On the switch test, all I get is "0" showing up, which I take it to mean that they all checked as good. Right?
End result - I'm still trying to figure out why outhole kicker and side return kicker solenoids don't work.
I have been going through all of the various manuals I collected over the years and have seen some of the tests laid out for testing the transistors in the circuit. I'll try those and see if I can confirm that is the problem.

snyper2099 - Thanks. I agree. I know the exact replacement transistors (SN9302) are no longer available. I have seen several recommended replacements. Up to this point, I have been removing them from some old bally boards I have, testing them out, and then using them to replace bad ones. None of the recommended replacements have identical specs to the old SN9302 and several actually have lower amp ratings. That concerned me so I never bought them. I'm open to advice on ones you know work. I don't mess with the transistors if I can avoid it, since the boards are old and every time I desolder something, I worry that I am causing more damage than I am solving. But I know its the "name of the game" on these old machines.

Just some background on this machine. I bought it over 30 years ago. Lots of initial work to get it going. Tried the sandblasting repair for board corrosion from leaking battery and finally gave up and replaced the MPU board. Worked fine until first the bottom thumper-bumper, and then the extra chime, started blowing fuses but I disconnected those solenoid and grandkids kept playing the machine without it. It sat for 3 or 4 years without being played. I am now trying to get it back to working. New batch of grandkids want to play and I just retired a few months ago. Finally got time to mess with it. Thanks for the help.

#7 2 years ago

If there was really bad corrosion it might have spread to the MPU connectors. Check them if they haven't been repinned. "0" on switch test means there are no actively closed switches. There could still be bad switches. If you manually press a switch at this time the number of that switch should pop up instead of the "0".

If you can ground the case of the transistor and make the correct coil fire that indicates wiring is good but doesn't rule out a bad component on the driver board.

As for the transistors, use TIP102s, and don't be afraid to change them. As stated above they're cheap to buy and often go bad. If you aren't confident in your soldering ability get a scrap electronics board and practice on it.

Things I always suggest for Ballys to help improve reliability (some of which you may or may not have done already):
-repin rectifier board connectors (male and female)
-change 20a fuse clips on rectifier board (original ones are extremely black and tarnished at this point)
-do ground mods on solenoid driver board, and tie TP1 to TP3
-replace the two big caps on solenoid driver board (the axial display cap is very difficult to find in that form factor/exact rating, so I use 150uf/>300v snap caps and run wires to the pos/neg through-holes)
-go through every board and check the header pins for cracked solder joints, especially on the 0.1" ones found on the MPU and lamp driver board

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from dkocian:

Wow. Three great replies. I'll address them in order.
tomdrum - I have replaced a lot of the connectors with Molex. I love them. In this case, since I can make the solenoid fire by touching the circuit on the solenoid board, I don't think there is a bad connection. There is a Molex connector on J1 but I don't know when it was replaced. Thanks for the link to the article. It is a great article.
Quench - Thanks for the charts! I thought I had about every book or article written on all this but have never seen the chart laid out the way you did. Excellent. I have run the tests before, but ran them again today to make sure nothing changed. On the solenoid test, they all fired except for the following (my explanation follows):
01 - outhole kicker - that is the problem I am trying to fix
03 - side return kicker - also a problem I am trying to fix
07 - extra chime - known problem with transistor circuit so I disconnected the solenoid
10 - bottom thumper-bumper - known problem with transistor circuit so I disconnected the solenoid
13 - coin lockout door - disconnected
14 - flipper - I didn't hold them in to test but they are working fine. I just replaced one of the solenoids on the left flipper since the primary burned out but the secondary still worked.
On the switch test, all I get is "0" showing up, which I take it to mean that they all checked as good. Right?
End result - I'm still trying to figure out why outhole kicker and side return kicker solenoids don't work.
I have been going through all of the various manuals I collected over the years and have seen some of the tests laid out for testing the transistors in the circuit. I'll try those and see if I can confirm that is the problem.
snyper2099 - Thanks. I agree. I know the exact replacement transistors (SN9302) are no longer available. I have seen several recommended replacements. Up to this point, I have been removing them from some old bally boards I have, testing them out, and then using them to replace bad ones. None of the recommended replacements have identical specs to the old SN9302 and several actually have lower amp ratings. That concerned me so I never bought them. I'm open to advice on ones you know work. I don't mess with the transistors if I can avoid it, since the boards are old and every time I desolder something, I worry that I am causing more damage than I am solving. But I know its the "name of the game" on these old machines.
Just some background on this machine. I bought it over 30 years ago. Lots of initial work to get it going. Tried the sandblasting repair for board corrosion from leaking battery and finally gave up and replaced the MPU board. Worked fine until first the bottom thumper-bumper, and then the extra chime, started blowing fuses but I disconnected those solenoid and grandkids kept playing the machine without it. It sat for 3 or 4 years without being played. I am now trying to get it back to working. New batch of grandkids want to play and I just retired a few months ago. Finally got time to mess with it. Thanks for the help.

Any TIP102 transistor from Marco’s, pinball Life, Steve Young pinball resource, etc. will work great. From my experience, they are actually a lot more reliable than the 40 year old sn9302 transistors. I have replaced over 500 of them in the last 17 years.

#9 2 years ago

To clear up something regarding switches and solenoids:

The switch is in no way connected directly to a solenoid in this system. The software reads the switches, makes decisions, and fires solenoids. It is the middleman in this transaction. The outhole kicker does NOT fire based on the status of the switch. The game always fires it when it wants to; at the start of the game's first ball, when it moves to the next player/ball etc. The switch has to work for the previous ball to END. A symptom of the switch being bad is you start a game, it launches the first ball, but the outhole kicker is seemingly dead after that. (Because the game can't end the ball without seeing that switch).

It will re-launch the outhole kicker if it sees it without a score. That's still software reacting though.

Now, onto the solenoids. Grounding the tab of the transistor tells you the power path is good to the solenoid. It tells you nothing about the proper functioning of the transistor itself.

What Quench was getting at by asking you to do the solenoid test is to see if any of the solenoids *repeat* during the test. The chart he posted is printed in your manual. Download from ipdb.org if you don't have one. The numbers on the displays while the solenoid test are going have to *match* the numbers in the chart. If you get 2 right kickers firing for instance in your test 1-14, you have a decoder issue. This is likely a signal stuck on or off from your mpu board to the solenoid driver board. They are the bottom left J4 connector on the mpu board, and the bottom right .100 connector on the solenoid driver board.

#10 2 years ago

Forgot to mention. MPU board replacement was a MUTHA board.
Quench, I did find those charts you sent. In the original Bally User manual. LOL. I spent so much time looking at all the diagnostic and repair manuals I never went back to the beginning. Thanks.

1 week later
#11 2 years ago

Sorry for the delay and getting back with my status. I removed Q4, Q7 and Q9 from the solenoid driver board. I then removed the same transistors from an old board I have used for parts in the past. I thought you might find this interesting. I have attached the measurements I found on the old and new (relative) transistors, after they were removed from the boards. I could make no sense of them and just threw them all away and ordered new TIP102 transistors and have now soldered the new ones onto the board. What a pain. I hate soldering on those old boards. Traces lift off and pins are so close together it is difficult to keep solder from shorting to another pin.
I reinstalled the board this afternoon. Yay. All my fixes worked. I am still not getting solenoids firing for the chime 100 and the extra chime. I have noticed that the white/green wire for the extra chime is disconnected. Done before I got the machine and probably a bad solenoid. I tested the transistors for both of those and they appeared to be ok, so I'll make sure I have 43 volts running to the solenoids (should be ok since chime 10 and chime 1000 work) and then check resistance and test fire the solenoids themselves.
Slowly but surely getting there.
Thanks for the help. I may come back to Ya'll after the chimes are fixed. I have a couple of bad digits on two of the displays. Never worked on those and understand they are high voltage. I am hoping they can be cleaned up and are just bad connections, but I know that is probably not the case.

Transistor resistance measurements (resized).pngTransistor resistance measurements (resized).png
#12 2 years ago
Quoted from dkocian:

Sorry for the delay and getting back with my status. I removed Q4, Q7 and Q9 from the solenoid driver board. I then removed the same transistors from an old board I have used for parts in the past. I thought you might find this interesting. I have attached the measurements I found on the old and new (relative) transistors, after they were removed from the boards. I could make no sense of them and just threw them all away and ordered new TIP102 transistors and have now soldered the new ones onto the board. What a pain. I hate soldering on those old boards. Traces lift off and pins are so close together it is difficult to keep solder from shorting to another pin.
I reinstalled the board this afternoon. Yay. All my fixes worked. I am still not getting solenoids firing for the chime 100 and the extra chime. I have noticed that the white/green wire for the extra chime is disconnected. Done before I got the machine and probably a bad solenoid. I tested the transistors for both of those and they appeared to be ok, so I'll make sure I have 43 volts running to the solenoids (should be ok since chime 10 and chime 1000 work) and then check resistance and test fire the solenoids themselves.
Slowly but surely getting there.
Thanks for the help. I may come back to Ya'll after the chimes are fixed. I have a couple of bad digits on two of the displays. Never worked on those and understand they are high voltage. I am hoping they can be cleaned up and are just bad connections, but I know that is probably not the case.[quoted image]

For chimes, likely the transistors which make the coils fire as well. For the displays, you wanna pull each one and resolder the header pins. Display connectors are almost always fine. Swap displays around and see if the problem follows the display, or stays in the same position. If it follows the individual display then it's likely a bad transistor or open resistor associated with those digits on the display.

Could also be bad glass if they look something like this:
pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

If that's the case I would suggest a full new set of X-Pin displays as the glass itself is not fixable or replaceable
https://xpinpinball.com/product/classic-bally-stern-6-digit-display-bundle-orange-2/
The new displays only use 5v, and are interchangable with the old displays. I personally think if you're gonna replace 2 of them may as well replace them all and keep the originals as spares

#13 2 years ago

No, the displays don't look like bad glass. A couple just have one digit that is blacked out. I'll do the procedures you outlined.

I started working on the chimes. The extra chime wire going to the transistor was disconnected. Before reconnecting it, since the transistor checked good when I had the board off, I just touched that solenoid wire to ground. The solenoid did not fire. However, when I did the ground touch, it blew something on the machine. I thought it was the playfield fuse, or maybe F4, but both of those check good. I get the 49 volts AC at F4. However, I get no DC voltage at TP5 on the rectifier board. It looks like I may have fried the rectifier. Hard to believe it destroyed the rectifier without first blowing the fuse.

I notice there is a 600 ohm, 10 watt resistor in the circuit. R1 on the schematic. There is also 100K ohm, 1/4 watt resistor on the VAC side of the circuit but on the rectifier side of the F4 fuse (R3). Any chance either of these could cause the problem? I can get the rectifier and 1/4 watt resistor overnight, but it will take days and a lot of shipping charges to get the 10 watt resistor. Since it is wired into the middle of the rectifier, I don't see a way to test it without pulling out the rectifier or disconnecting one leg of the resistor from the board. I guess I'll start on that, unless there is something else that could have caused this or anyone has better suggestions.

Dang. Game was working great. Chimes were no big deal. Can't believe I caused all these problems trying to fix the chimes.

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from dkocian:

Can't believe I caused all these problems trying to fix the chimes.

Trust me, you didn't cause all these problems.

About six or eight years ago I noticed that all the machines of this generation just suddenly had gotten harder to fix.

In days past, you could replace a single .100 connector on a wire to the CPU. A single transistor on the SDB. Reflow the solder on one display. Wiggle the connector at the Rectifier board, or just replace the trifurcon where the connector was brown.

In my experience, that isn't the case anymore. Whenever I'm looking at a machine of this generation I'm looking at doing ALL the recommended fixes on the Pinwiki, and then spending a considerable amount of time fixing everything else.

It was as if the machines all got exactly one day past their warranty, and everything broke hard all at once.

So... they are fixable. It's just that they are requiring quite a bit of repair everywhere you look.

In my experience, the resistors on the rectifier board are rarely blown, you can test them to find out if they are open on top of the board.

The Bridge Rectifiers frequently need replacement.

The biggest single thing about the rectifier board is that you really do almost always have to replace every pin and every connector.

This is quite a bit of work. And when you are done, you've still got difficult-to-source skinny little bridge rectifiers that might fail again. I usually replace the rectifier board with a remake that has much heavier duty bridge rectifiers. Then I just have to redo the connectors on the wires with Trifurcon pins.

On your displays, there are six 100k 1/4 watt resistors on each display. Replace them with 1/2 watt. Each resistor when it fails will cause that one digit in the six digit display to stop lighting.

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Repairing_Bally.2FStern_Displays

Keep working at it, read the pinwiki and consider doing every single thing that is recommended. Your grandkids will always remember the pinball machine, so you're creating memories for a lifetime.

#15 2 years ago

Thanks! Like the old aftershave commercials, "I needed that!"
Figured out why the chime shorted out. Someone put in the solenoid the wrong way. When they replaced it, the Hot wire was not to the banded sided of the diode. Solenoid is fine.
I started to unsolder the rectifier but paused and figured out I would check it one more time. Check it twice and solder it once. I had tested for 49VAC and got it on both sides of the fuse, and the fuse looked good, so I thought F4 was OK. Pulled the fuse and tested it with a voltmeter and it showed it was blown. Wow. Saved me a ton of work. Replaced the fuse, rewired the chime solenoid, cleaned the connectors to the other chimes (they were already molex), and game is working again. Still not sure how I got 49 VAC on both sides of a blown fuse.
Next will be to work on the displays as outlined in this thread. It is actually working OK now, and playable, and I feel comfortable in putting bottom glass back on, so I feel like I made real progress. Weird. I have handled major deals in the past while working, and have never felt as satisfied as getting this machine to actually light up and play. I think I earned a beer!

#16 1 year ago

I have another problem. This one is out of the ordinary.
As noted earlier, I made all the necessary changes (replaced transistors and solenoids) and got everything on the game working except for a couple of black digits on the displays. So I closed up the playfield, replaced the glass, and was enjoying playing the game. It worked perfect, except for the displays.
Came back the next day and turned it on. Game went through the startup process and everything appeared to be fine. I pushed the button to play a game, and it all started up except the outhole kicker did not return the ball to the shooting lane. I opened the door and pressed the test button, and all of the solenoids fired, including the outhole kicker. This put the ball into the shooting lane. I turned the machine off and back on and played a game. Worked fine. At the end of each turn, the outhole kicker returned the ball to the shooting lane until the game was over.
Then I tried to play another game. Same thing happened. Game started, but the outhole kicker did not return the ball to the shooting lane.
I know the solenoid is good, and the transistor circuit is good (new transistor) and it works on the test sequence, and it works during game play, so I cannot figure out what is different about firing that solenoid when a game is started. What am I missing?

#17 1 year ago

On that era game the outhole kicker will kick out the ball upon starting a game, so not a switch issue. I'm thinking a connection issue. Are the other playfield solenoids active or are they all dead? Hears a few suggestions,

* Playfield fuse holder worn and intermittent
* J3 jumper on driver board loose
* SD board pins need to be resoldered

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