(Topic ID: 234883)

Bally Eight Ball lamp question


By Sea_Wolf

1 year ago



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  • Latest reply 12 months ago by Sea_Wolf
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#1 1 year ago

Got my Eight Ball up and running a short time ago and I noticed that the 4 ball on the playfield and the 2 ball in the rack don’t light up. Changed bulbs of course, no difference. Jumped a wire from another working lamp socket and they both light up so it looks like the socket is good. Did the Anode test on the lamp driver SCR’s Q-57 and Q-26 and with the other end of the jumper grounded, both lamps light up, so I assume the SCR’s are good. I then checked the J1 and J-3 connectors on the LDB and noticed that both are missing the wires (according to my reading of the schematic) for those 2 lights. The guy I bought it from had hacked other wires so I’m guessing he did on these as well. My question is do I simply run new wire from the sockets straight to the appropriate connectors for both lights or do they go through another connection first? Also I noticed that a couple other wires were missing from the J connectors on the LDB yet the lights still functioned correctly, such as the 14 ball and 10 ball on the playfield, unless I’m reading the schematic wrong but I don’t think I am. Thanks for any advice

#2 1 year ago

You need to verify wire colors vs pin position. The schem has a wire color legend.

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

You need to verify wire colors vs pin position. The schem has a wire color legend.

Thanks Cody. I see on the schematic, the wire color legend now. What would be the next move in your opinion?

#4 1 year ago

Go through those connector housings and verify each wire color is correct. You can use a jumper from ground to touch the metal of the pin in the housing to confirm the correct lamp lites up. Tedious, but if you know some connectors have been compromised you need to iron them all out.

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Did the Anode test on the lamp driver SCR’s Q-57 and Q-26 and with the other end of the jumper grounded, both lamps light up, so I assume the SCR’s are good.

Grounding the anode of the SCR only tests continuity from the SCR to the lamp. It doesn't test the SCR itself.
So if grounding the anode of those SCRs made the suspect lamps switch on, you can presume the wiring is intact.

To test the SCR in circuit, you need to apply voltage to its gate leg and that's what test point TP3 on the lamp driver board (LDB) is there for.
So run a jumper wire from TP3 on the LDB to the gate leg of the SCR (middle leg that goes upward) and see if those lamps light.

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Grounding the anode of the SCR only tests continuity from the SCR to the lamp. It doesn't test the SCR itself.
So if grounding the anode of those SCRs made the suspect lamps switch on, you can presume the wiring is intact.
To test the SCR in circuit, you need to apply voltage to its gate leg and that's what test point TP3 on the lamp driver board (LDB) is there for.
So run a jumper wire from TP3 on the LDB to the gate leg of the SCR (middle leg that goes upward) and see if those lamps light.

Thanks for the info quench. Learning more quickly.

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Grounding the anode of the SCR only tests continuity from the SCR to the lamp. It doesn't test the SCR itself.
So if grounding the anode of those SCRs made the suspect lamps switch on, you can presume the wiring is intact.
To test the SCR in circuit, you need to apply voltage to its gate leg and that's what test point TP3 on the lamp driver board (LDB) is there for.
So run a jumper wire from TP3 on the LDB to the gate leg of the SCR (middle leg that goes upward) and see if those lamps light.

I performed the gate leg test like you suggested and the 2 Ball Rack (Q-26) lit up, however the playfield 4 Ball (Q-57) did not. Thanks for the helpful procedure advice. What do you think I should do next, regarding both lamps?

#8 1 year ago

Checked the 2 SCRs with the DMM in Diode test mode as PinWiki suggested and with the red lead on the ‘G’ and the Black lead on the ‘C’, the Q-26 (2 ball rack) read .776, which was within the proper range and Q-57 (4 Ball) read only .262, which indicates a failure according to PinWiki. Sounds like I just need to replace the SCR on Q-57 but that still wouldn’t solve why the 2 ball doesn’t light properly. I’d like to know you guy’s opinion. And how easy/hard is it to replace a bad SCR?
Thanks for the help.

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Go through those connector housings and verify each wire color is correct. You can use a jumper from ground to touch the metal of the pin in the housing to confirm the correct lamp lites up. Tedious, but if you know some connectors have been compromised you need to iron them all out.

Did check all the wires going into the connectors and they all are where they are supposed to be. Sorry, I was mistaken earlier.

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

I performed the gate leg test like you suggested and the 2 Ball Rack (Q-26) lit up

Does this 2 Ball Rack lamp come on in lamp test mode? (press the little red button inside the coin door once for lamp test).
Post a picture of your lamp board so we can see which type you have (later single sided traces or early double sided traces).

Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Q-57 (4 Ball) read only .262, which indicates a failure according to PinWiki. And how easy/hard is it to replace a bad SCR?

The small SCRs are easy to replace. If it helps, cut the gate leg from the body of the failed SCR which will make it easier to remove them with your soldering iron. The original lamp board which has double sided traces are a little harder to work with if you're not experienced with component solder work.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Does this 2 Ball Rack lamp come on in lamp test mode? (press the little red button inside the coin door once for lamp test).
Post a picture of your lamp board so we can see which type you have (later single sided traces or early double sided traces).

The small SCRs are easy to replace. If it helps, cut the gate leg from the body of the failed SCR which will make it easier to remove them with your soldering iron. The original lamp board which has double sided traces are a little harder to work with if you're not experienced with component solder work.

No. Neither the 4 or 2 ball light up in test mode. I’ve got the bottom pop bumper acting up similarly. The switch works underneath it but while it scores when hit, it doesn’t pop. If you run a wire from a Ground to the Q9 on the SDB it fires, so I know the coil is ok and not stuck.

#12 1 year ago

Seems like replacing the SCR for Q-57 on the LDB seems logical since it tests low and the 4 ball won’t light even in the gate leg test you mentioned but I wonder what the problem is with the 2 Ball light, since it always lights up in testing and registered normal on the DMM but won’t light during gameplay.
Appreciate the help.

#13 1 year ago

Here’s a picture of the LDB. I’m certainly not an experienced component solderer but I did successfully solder in a new rectifier board for this game thanks to help from people on Pinside.

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#14 1 year ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

but I wonder what the problem is with the 2 Ball light, since it always lights up in testing and registered normal on the DMM but won’t light during gameplay.

Grab your multi meter.
Set it to DC voltage.
Put the game in lamp test mode.
Find resistor R26 on the lamp driver board.
Measure the voltage on both legs of R26
Does the voltage change on both legs in sync with other lamps flashing on and off?

Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

I’ve got the bottom pop bumper acting up similarly...
The switch works underneath it but while it scores when hit, it doesn’t pop. If you run a wire from a Ground to the Q9 on the SDB it fires

Time to test the Q9 driver transistor in a similar way to testing the SCRs.
Hookup a jumper wire to test point TP6 on the Solenoid Driver Board (SDB) and very briefly touch the lower leg of diode CR9 (which is directly above Q9). Does the pop bumper activate?
If not Q9 is suspect.
If yes, go further upstream.
Remove the jumper from TP6 and connect it to ground. Very briefly (carefully) touch the other end of the jumper wire to the base of the transistor array that drives Q9 which is pin 3 of U3 on the SDB. Does the pop bumper activate?

#15 1 year ago

Thanks a bunch. Getting ready to start testing.

#16 1 year ago

Just tested the legs on R-26 in lamp test mode and on DC got 0.00. Also did the same on R-57 (4 ball) and it barely registered 0.05. On ones that are working I get a reading that jumps all over the place but on the working lamps, they are all consistent that way.

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Time to test the Q9 driver transistor in a similar way to testing the SCRs.
Hookup a jumper wire to test point TP6 on the Solenoid Driver Board (SDB) and very briefly touch the lower leg of diode CR9 (which is directly above Q9). Does the pop bumper activate?
If not Q9 is suspect.
If yes, go further upstream.
Remove the jumper from TP6 and connect it to ground. Very briefly (carefully) touch the other end of the jumper wire to the base of the transistor array that drives Q9 which is pin 3 of U3 on the SDB. Does the pop bumper activate?

Just tested the SDB like you said. Ran a jumper from TP6 to the lower leg of CR9 and the pop bumper did nothing. I noticed by accident when I touched the lower leg of CR-10, one of the other pop bumpers fired. This is awesome stuff to learn. I really appreciate the help. Let me know what you think.

#18 1 year ago

On a side note: The lower pop bumper was working fine 3 days ago but the 2 lights in question have never worked since I bought the machine.

#19 1 year ago

Looks like R-26 on the Solenoid Driver Board is cooked. Would that be in line with the bottom pop bumper and why it’s not firing?

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#20 1 year ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Just tested the legs on R-26 in lamp test mode and on DC got 0.00. Also did the same on R-57 (4 ball) and it barely registered 0.05. On ones that are working I get a reading that jumps all over the place but on the working lamps, they are all consistent that way.

Hmm, the 4514 chip at U2 on your lamp driver board might be faulty..
Run the lamp test mode again and measure the voltage on pin 5 of the 4514 chip at U2 on the LDB.

Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Looks like R-26 on the Solenoid Driver Board is cooked. Would that be in line with the bottom pop bumper and why it’s not firing?

A burnt R26 is related to the non functioning pop bumper but it wasn't the cause, rather the result of another failure. Very likely Q9 (the collector and base pins probably shorted).
Grab your multimeter, and set it to low resistance ohms mode.
With the machine OFF, how much resistance do you measure across the orange disc capacitor at C6 (it's probably the one right under R26). Compare the reading against another of those capacitors.

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Hmm, the 4514 chip at U2 on your lamp driver board might be faulty..
Run the lamp test mode again and measure the voltage on pin 5 of the 4514 chip at U2 on the LDB.

A burnt R26 is related to the non functioning pop bumper but it wasn't the cause, rather the result of another failure. Very likely Q9 (the collector and base pins probably shorted).
Grab your multimeter, and set it to low resistance ohms mode.
With the machine OFF, how much resistance do you measure across the orange disc capacitor at C6 (it's probably the one right under R26). Compare the reading against another of those capacitors.

Just tested the U2 pin 5 for voltage and got 0.00. All the rest of the pins on U2 registered something, although I barely got any reading on pin 3.

#22 1 year ago

Just tested the C-6 cap on the SDB on low resistance ohms and it measured 0.52 which was about the same as C-3,C-4,C-5 and C-6. They were all between 0.52 and 0.55.

I went ahead and ordered a small Tune up kit for the LDB and SDB from eBay so that I will have, resistors, capacitors, SCRs etc.... in case I need them later. I’m guessing that’s where we’re headed? What’s your opinion? I’ll have to wait if I want to take the plunge for new driver boards. I’m pinball broke right now :|Thanks again for all your help.

#23 1 year ago

Wonder if not having the little diode on the lower pop bumper switch caused the transistor or resistor on the SDB to fail. The other 2 pop bumper switches have one.

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#24 1 year ago

Green things capacitors? Not diodes I guess.

#25 1 year ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Just tested the U2 pin 5 for voltage and got 0.00. All the rest of the pins on U2 registered something, although I barely got any reading on pin 3.

You don't by any chance have a logic probe to confirm?
The voltage on pin 3 should be similar to pins 2, 21 and 22.

Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Just tested the C-6 cap on the SDB on low resistance ohms and it measured 0.52 which was about the same as C-3,C-4,C-5 and C-6. They were all between 0.52 and 0.55.

Your measurements don't look right. Maybe the meter wasn't set to ohms properly.
If your meter is auto-ranging, set it to the "Ω" mode which measures resistance.
If it's not auto-ranging, set it to the "2000" "Ω" mode which measures resistance up to 2000 ohms.
I'm getting about 820 ohms across those capacitors (red meter lead on one capacitor leg, black meter lead on the other capacitor leg).

Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

I went ahead and ordered a small Tune up kit for the LDB and SDB from eBay so that I will have, resistors, capacitors, SCRs etc.... in case I need them later. I’m guessing that’s where we’re headed? What’s your opinion?

Yes, as it stands you likely have one (possibly two) faulty 2N5060 SCRs and 4514 logic chip for the lamp board. How are your soldering skills?

On the SDB, you likely have a faulty TIP102 driver transistor at Q9, burnt 330 ohm resistor at R26, possibly damaged 1N4004 diode at CR9. I would also replace the diode across the lower pop bumper coil (presuming the coil isn't cooked). NOTE, diodes are directional and must be installed in the correct orientation. One side of the diode body has a band indicating it's the cathode leg.
Hopefully the transistor array at U3 is ok, but give it a quick measurement to check:
With the machine on and in game over mode, measure the voltages at pins 2 and 3 of U3 on the SDB. Compare against the voltages of pins 2 and 3 of U1 and U4.

Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Wonder if not having the little diode on the lower pop bumper switch caused the transistor or resistor on the SDB to fail.

No, those green capacitors often short causing pop bumper and other switch issues. Operators usually cut them out once faulty, but it leaves the side effect that the pop bumper switch will not be as responsive and miss scoring sometimes.

#26 1 year ago

Thanks for all the responses. Checking soon

2 weeks later
#27 12 months ago

Got my solenoid and lamp driver kits and finally got time to work on the Eight Ball. Replaced resistor R-26 and transistor Q-9 and bam, bottom pop bumper is kicking ass. Now onto working on the Lamp Driver Board. Much obliged to you Quench for all your advice.

#28 12 months ago

I also learned a ton. That’s invaluable for a pinhead. Thank you.

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