Eight Ball Deluxe
Bally, 1981So I picked up an 81 EBD the other day, my first Early Bally SS. Cool game! Hoping to borrow from the vast Pinside expertise. The right flipper is not functional at all, but both left flippers work well. Got 43V at coil. Tried to ground transistor q15 per guide to actuate right flipper while in attract mode. No dice. Board just clicked. Tried to ground center lug on coil while in attract mode, blew 5A fuse F4.
Shined up and verified EOS continuity. Same for flipper button.
Any thoughts?
It looks like the wiring is correct. If you have voltage and continuity from the switch, your coil is probably bad.
Is the mechanical action nice and smooth?
FWIW, grounding the transistor only engages the flipper relay. You still have to hold in the flipper button to engage the flipper. Also, center lug is the wrong one to ground. With the EOS switch closed you are essentially jumping straight from your fuse to ground. You want to ground the lug with the orange wire to test the coil.
Have you pulled the solenoid driver board and looked at the back for burnt traces?
Thanks! I did pull the driver board, no burned traces or connectors. Reflowed the solder joints on the larger male pins for good measure. Then, before I could proceed further, my cheap DMM dies - opening the door to a nicer one but slowing progress. I also ordered new caps for the 5v while I had the board down, so waiting on those from GPE. That said, I will retest pursuant to your instructions and see what happens! Your info is very helpful.
The orange wire is correct. When you say 43v both sides what does that mean? You should have 43v on all three lugs. If you don't have power on the center lug your EOS switch is bunk and that's your problem. If you do have power there then grounding the orange lug to the cabinet braid will fire the coil.
Got 43 everywhere. I guess this means I have a bad coil or broken connection from the thin wire somewhere? I checkedcontinuity from the solder joint to where the thin wire protrudes from the coil, but I guess it could be broken elsewhere. Seems grounding it to the cab ground should fire it if the coil is good. And I think that test eliminates a bad flipper switch or bad ground.
Correct. It does sound like the high power winding may be broken. If you ground the orange lug and manually push in the plunger it should hold. At least you would know your low power winding is good.
So I replaced the coil, but that didn't fix the problem. Instead, the flipper twitched the first time I engaged the button, never to move again. This coil also will not fire when grounded. Not sure what else to do at this point...
Did you check the contacts at the flipper button? They could be burnt as well. Unlike the small contacts on roll over switches etc, the flipper button contacts along with the contacts on the flipper mechanism, can be filed aggressively... Point file...metal file...emery board.
Quoted from Carl_694:Seems grounding it to the cab ground should fire it if the coil is good. And I think that test eliminates a bad flipper switch or bad ground.
Quoted from Freeplay40:Did you check the contacts at the flipper button?
Yes, if you ground coil tab opposite power tab and the flipper fires properly that would eliminate cabinet flipper switch and associated wiring as being the problem.
So you replaced the coil and now it doesn't work when grounded? Recheck power. Sure you wired the replacement coil correctly? Did you by chance transfer the old coil diode to the new, or did your replacement coil come with a new diode?
There's really not much there for the basic high power coil check. You have full correct power at one terminal of the coil. If it is a new coil and diode, and you ground the far tab opposite power it should fire. If not, then your coil or diode is bad.
I shined up both the flipper and EOS switches and read across them with my DMM. Looked good. Also, grounding the tabs does not activate the coil for some reason. I grounded the tab with the orange wire to no effect. If I have 43v at the lugs, doesn't that mean the EOS is good and conducting properly?
Quoted from Carl_694:I shined up both the flipper and EOS switches and read across them with my DMM.
So you disconnected one wire from the EOS and measured near 0 resistance (closed) with your DMM, and when open the switch measures infinite (open), correct?
Just because you have 43v at the lugs, doesn't mean the EOS is conducting CURRENT properly. But from what you are saying the EOS seems in good shape. Are you certain you have a proper ground?
Some helpful info here too:
http://stevekulpa.net/pinball/bally_flipper1.htm
You can bypass the EOS switch by connecting an alligator jumper to the two tabs opposite the orange wire.
Quoted from dothedoo:You can bypass the EOS switch by connecting an alligator jumper to the two tabs opposite the orange wire.
So I would jump the two other lugs?
Quoted from wayout440:So you disconnected one wire from the EOS and measured near 0 resistance (closed) with your DMM, and when open the switch measures infinite (open), correct?
Just because you have 43v at the lugs, doesn't mean the EOS is conducting CURRENT properly. But from what you are saying the EOS seems in good shape. Are you certain you have a proper ground?
Some helpful info here too:
http://stevekulpa.net/pinball/bally_flipper1.htm
I didn't disconnect the wire, just read across the lugs with the switch closed and saw continuity. Does removing the wire have a significant impact? With 43V at the lugs, wouldn't the flipper do something at all when grounded? I am presuming the ground is good since my other flippers work. I don't recall the schematic, but I'm assuming it's daisy-changed.
Here's a summary of the steps/results for anyone just coming to the thread...
Symptom: EBD Right Flipper is not functional. Both left flippers work great
Steps: Pulled Driver Board and examined for bad traces. Nothing found.
Reflowed male header pins while I was there
Verified transistor fired flipper relay (heard the clicking)
Measured 43V at all Right Flipper Lugs
Attempted to ground the lug with the orange wire (Didn't do anything)
Cleaned and Shined EOS & Flipper Switches
Used DMM to measure continuity across the switches, and continuity was found
Replaced Coil. The flipper twitched once, but would not do so again.
Quoted from Carl_694:Both left flippers work great
Attempted to ground the lug with the orange wire (Didn't do anything)
So you can ground the left flipper and it works, but when you ground the right nothing happens, correct?
To be completely honest, I can't recall if I tried grounding the left flipper or not. I will try it tonight and see. It's obviously getting to ground if it's firing though, right?
I'll also go through all the switches again just for the heck of it. I don't understand why the new coil would twitch that once, and then not do it again all things being equal. Perhaps it is a current thing.
Are other coils in the game firing correctly? Does the new coil have the diodes installed and is the correct coil installed?
Quoted from Carl_694:To be completely honest, I can't recall if I tried grounding the left flipper or not. I will try it tonight and see. It's obviously getting to ground if it's firing though, right?
The point of this excercise is, if you clip your jumper wire to a ground source (usually I use the ground braid) and you are able to manually trigger the left flipper, and then move the end of the wire that you are touching to the left coil over and do the same thing on the right, you know that you have a proper ground to the coil. If it does not fire, you have eliminated 1/2 of the possible circuit as the problem (i.e. your flipper relay, cabinet switches, wiring and ground are out of the circuit.)
Quoted from Carl_694:I didn't disconnect the wire, just read across the lugs with the switch closed and saw continuity.
OK - you saw continuity.... so when you opened the switch, what did you see then? The EOS is in parallel with the coil, so if you don't disconnect one wire, you would be then measuring the coil resistance - close to a short circuit, since it is just a long loop of wire with a low resistance.
Quoted from Lovef2k:Are other coils in the game firing correctly? Does the new coil have the diodes installed and is the correct coil installed?
Carl_694 said the other flippers are working correctly, and the pics show the diodes. Says it's a new coil as well.
Quoted from wayout440:The point of this excercise is, if you clip your jumper wire to a ground source (usually I use the ground braid) and you are able to manually trigger the left flipper, and then move the end of the wire that you are touching to the left coil over and do the same thing on the right, you know that you have a proper ground to the coil. If it does not fire, you have eliminated 1/2 of the possible circuit as the problem (i.e. your flipper relay, cabinet switches, wiring and ground are out of the circuit.)
OK - you saw continuity.... so when you opened the switch, what did you see then? The EOS is in parallel with the coil, so if you don't disconnect one wire, you would be then measuring the coil resistance - close to a short circuit, since it is just a long loop of wire with a low resistance.
Two notes: The photo at top is the "old" coil. I installed the new coil in the same orientation, but will double-check the diode orientation.
As to the EOS switch: Wayout: I didn't realize this, will evaluate/check this evening and get back to you.
THANKS EVERYONE FOR YOUR EXPERTISE!
Update: Not much changed. I tried to ground the other coil, for the left flipper, but wasn't sure which lug to ground. I ended up grounding the one that corresponded with the same lug (relative to the diodes) as the right flipper and the left coil did not fire. Not sure if I grounded the right one, but no fuse blew. Here's some photos of that coil - Memphis left side, which works. Looks like someone has messed with the wiring, I presume to reduce the number of actual wires soldered to each lug. Looks like they soldered the wires together before the lug and used a single lead for the coil. Nite that ebd has an upper left, so two switches, etc. on this coil. Made it difficult to determine which to ground. 20140811_224647.jpg20140811_224641.jpg20140811_224713.jpg
DOH! looks like all brown lamp cord. Makes it really difficult to tell what is going on - but it works, so that much is good.
The proper way to test if you're going to be grounding lugs is to ground the lug furthest from the power, the non-banded side end lug. When the flipper coil fires then the EOS switch will work as designed and add in the second winding of the coil, thus keeping the current draw within the range of the fuse.
if you can't manually ground the left flipper to make it fire, then there is no way you can use this method to determine which part of the circuit is failing on the right flipper.
In the second photo, I grounded the lug to the farthest left - which I think is what I was supposed to do...I am still not certain how it's possible the coil won't fire when grounded directly to the braid, but...
I was thinking the following... Given that I have 43V at the lugs for the non-functional right coil, I should have 43V at the right flipper switch (or so I am thinking) when the switch is open (not pressed in). So to test if I have proper ground, I was planning to: Verify 43 V at flipper button, then close the flipper button switch. Upon closing the switch, I think I should pretty much see 0 volts as it is my understanding that hitting the flipper button essentially causes the coil to ground (and thus fire). If I don't see any change, then I think that points to a ground wiring problem.
In looking at the schematic for the flippers in the manual, it appears there's no direct relationship between the right and left flippers, so I'm not (at this point) going to worry about the wiring there.
Quoted from Carl_694:In the second photo, I grounded the lug to the farthest left - which I think is what I was supposed to do...I am still not certain how it's possible the coil won't fire when grounded directly to the braid, but...
You can't get the ground for the flippers from the braid, you need to go to the flipper return (see next note below)
Quoted from Carl_694:I was thinking the following... Given that I have 43V at the lugs for the non-functional right coil, I should have 43V at the right flipper switch (or so I am thinking) when the switch is open (not pressed in). So to test if I have proper ground, I was planning to: Verify 43 V at flipper button, then close the flipper button switch. Upon closing the switch, I think I should pretty much see 0 volts as it is my understanding that hitting the flipper button essentially causes the coil to ground (and thus fire). If I don't see any change, then I think that points to a ground wiring problem.
If you measure each side of the flipper cabinet switch terminals with respect to the ground braid, one should have flipper voltage and the other nearly 0... the one that is nearly 0 is the flipper return you need to ground to, then touch the tab opposite power on the coil and it should fire.
Quoted from Carl_694:In looking at the schematic for the flippers in the manual, it appears there's no direct relationship between the right and left flippers, so I'm not (at this point) going to worry about the wiring there.
Basically correct. They are separate "paths" which is why if one flipper works, you can't presume the ground path for the other is o.k.
I would bet you probably have a flipper ground problem in the path, since you measure flipper voltage at the coils terminals. The grounding test discussed should prove that the coil fires, verifying power,coil and EOS are good. Then you would be looking for a problem in the pathe (connectors, such as at the MPU, flipper enable relay, cabinet swith or wiring.
Thanks! It appears I'm a total moron and did not understand how to properly ground the coils. Argh. I will reconduct the test and verify ASAP. It's raining buckets here, so I guess that gets me out of outside work for the night.
I agree it seems like I have a grounding problem. I've dealt with this type of issue (broken flipper) before and the problem always seemed pretty obvious. Which was what was weird in this case, as it seems if I have power at the coil lugs than it should fire unless the current can't get back to ground. Guess I never realized I couldn't use the ground braid in the cabinet.
If this works, as you noted, it will at least isolate the problem to the ground side of the circuit. Then it seems I should be able to run continuity tests between the known good wiring and suspect wiring to identify the fail points.
Update: Left coil fired properly. Unfortunately, right coil not so much. No activity there when I grounded the tab with orange wire (first photo in this thread) to appropriate, grounded leg of the flipper button switch. I did get continuity from one rab of the flipper switch to the braid. I am a bit confused how this scenario is possible. If the switch is grounded, and I ground a powered coil to it, doesn't the coil almost have to fire? Going to examine further a bit later.
Yes unless your EOS is bunk and can't handle the current. Clip a jumper across your EOS switch wires and then see if it fires when you ground the orange lug.
Quoted from Carl_694:Not sure, but I may have a connector issue at the board. Got the flipper to fire a few times when I jingled the appropriate connector.
It's something simple. It isn't that complicated. Most-likely a connector. I have yet to buy a machine from this era that doesn't have at least one or two bad connector pins. That's why I always replace them all.
Quoted from dothedoo:Just ground it to the cabinet braid, that'll work.
I suspect his ground braid is not making good continuity back to the rectifier board common ground, or is flat out disconnected, connected to the wrong place, or broken. Taking a meter reading from the ground braid to flipper return @ J2 pin 2 flipper return pin on the rectifier board will probably reveal resistance that is not low enough.
Asking Carl694 to take the jumper from the cab switch was suggested because we knew that ground was functional.
Quoted from Carl_694:Not sure, but I may have a connector issue at the board. Got the flipper to fire a few times when I jingled the appropriate connector.
Assuming you probably were jostiling J2 pin 1 or J1 pin 9 on the SDB board (the ins and outs for the right flipper) The purpose is to just control enabling the flippers with relay K1 to complete the circuit.
You probably need connector(s) repinned as Gatecrasher suggested.
Yes. I believe the problem lies with J1 pin 9. Seems the connector is not seating fully, so I'll have to replace the connector. It's deceiving as it seems the connector has seated, but in fact a closer inspection reveals 8 & 9 aren't fully seated with 9 the worse of the two. Probably just do them all. Already bulletproofed the board per vids guide, though I haven't done new male connectors or females. In retrospect, this would have been a good idea. Can't yet be sure this is my problem, but seems to make sense.
Thanks for the help wayout, dothedoo, freeplay and Gatecrasher. Will report back when connector repinned or replaced.
Run a clip lead from the working flipper coil voltage in -- the end lug with the diode stripe to the equivalent lug on the non working flipper.
Then if the non-working flipper now works it's the flipper power pin associated with the driver board. If it doesn't work look for a ground path problem.
So to close this out, the issue was bad pins at the connector. Repinned it tonight and all is relatively well. Funny that it took a few hits of the button to kick the dead flipper into life, though. Planning to repin all connectors and perhaps replace new pins on the board.
Thanks everyone!
That IS weird. Maybe the connector is still flaky and the vibration from you hitting the flipper buttons causes the connector make enough contact to fire the flipper? Did you reflow the header pins? Is the solenoid driver board grounded, by that I mean are the 2 screws mounted on the board? Also is the ground strap from the main cab attached to the backbox ground braid?
Quoted from Lovef2k:Did you reflow the header pins? Is the solenoid driver board grounded, by that I mean are the 2 screws mounted on the board? Also is the ground strap from the main cab attached to the backbox ground braid?
Ideally those pins should be replaced. It's really not much more work than reflowing since you already would have the board out. The contact surface area cleanliness of those pins is highly important.
The cab ground strap is important, but will have nothing to do with this specific problem because the coil grounds and switch cab grounds run back through to the backbox boards.
I did reflow the pins but I'll prob replace. I must have ground otherwise the coils wouldn't fire. Already bulletproofed the board. I'm guessing there was some oxidization on the pin or on a switch that burned off. The pins "look" Ok, but I'll prob replace anyway. Just want to ensure reliability for the next guy. Machine already has an alltek cpu board so might as well get this driver to top shape.
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Lexington, SC