(Topic ID: 307214)

Bally early SS flickering led’s (with Alltek board )

By Canad-eh

2 years ago


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    Understanding_Buffered_and_Unbuffered_CD4xxxB_Series_scha004.pdf (PDF preview)
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    #1 2 years ago

    I am having an issue with my Paragon and flickering . I replaced the lamp board with a new Alltek, with the power wire to controlled lamp bus in the head ( 5.3V ), all the bulbs to comet LED . Most of my playfield bulbs are flickering , almost a wave pulse .
    I then removed most of the offending LED's and went back to the # 47 , same thing with them ? Checked the resistors on the lamp board , all good . Re pinned /re flowed all solenoid connectors , new rectifier board with new connectors ,cleaned/ re flowed remaining header pins .
    Are there any specific connectors going to the MPU that should be examined ?

    #2 2 years ago

    Are the controlled lamps and the GI flickering, or just controlled lamps? You could have a problem with your lamp strobe lines coming off the MPU. Lamp address, data and strobe lines are connected to MPU connector J1.

    Check out PDF page 40. Might also wanna check R78, R79, C49, C50.
    https://www.ipdb.org/files/1755/Bally_1979_Paragon_English_Manual_color_with_paginated_schematics.pdf

    You could also try swapping U10 and U11 (6820 PIAs) and see if the problem moves/changes.

    #3 2 years ago

    Just the controlled lights . I will re pin the MPU connections related to J1 .
    Here are my readings for the following DMM checks

    R79- 1.99 K
    R78- 1.99 K ( both rated for 2 K )
    C50 and C49- I would need to unsolder to check properly , my DMM shows all kinds of readings in line with others

    #4 2 years ago
    Quoted from Canad-eh:

    Just the controlled lights . I will re pin the MPU connections related to J1 .
    Here are my readings for the following DMM checks
    R79- .482
    R78- .480
    C50- yellow side , red probe - .520
    orange side , red probe - .716
    C49- yellow side , red probe - .523
    orange side, red probe - .816

    Wires associated with lamps go from MPU J1 to lamp board J4. Might be worth it to try wiggling the connectors/wires while they're plugged in first, see if the problem changes or goes away, but if you wanna just repin them and knock it out as being a problem that works too.

    #5 2 years ago

    Ok , repined J1 , no change . I have tried the wiggle unfortunately nothing either .
    Tried swapping the U11 and U 10 ,no change

    Thanks for the help by the way

    #6 2 years ago
    Quoted from Canad-eh:

    Ok , repined J1 , no change . I have tried the wiggle unfortunately nothing either .
    Tried swapping the U11 and U 10 ,no change
    Thanks for the help by the way

    Do you have the old lamp board you can try swapping back in?

    #7 2 years ago

    A fellow pinsider, Phenomynon, started a thread for his Medusa with similar issues regarding light flickering at this link .

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-medusa-in-playfield-display-issue

    In an attempt to not disturb his thread I will be posting my progress from here instead .

    #8 2 years ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    The lamp driver board uses silicon controlled rectifiers (SCRs) to switch the controlled lamps on. This architecture was designed 45 years ago based on the current draw of incandescent globes.
    LEDs draw much less current than incandescents which results in the SCRs having trouble latching on. The solution is to add load resistors to the lamp circuits so they draw more current to help the SCRs latch.
    The Alltek lamp driver board already has load resistors built onboard. While you have the Alltek lamp driver board hooked up to the headbox lamp controlled power bus, you need to make sure it's measuring around 5.8VDC at the "SW ILL BUS VOLTAGE" point on the Alltek board.
    If it's ok, then you need to either add 470 ohm resistors to the flickering lamp sockets, or change those flickering LEDs to ones that draw more current.

    Thanks for your help Quench ,

    I do have 5+ VDC at the test point and have tried various jumpers for power / grounding improvement . Adding resistors to the sockets might be the solution .

    My next step is to try the resistor on the bulb .

    #9 2 years ago
    Quoted from Knxwledge:

    Do you have the old lamp board you can try swapping back in?

    I will be trying this next if the added resistor does not work

    #10 2 years ago

    You mentioned in your opening post that #47 (incandescent) globes are also flickering? Adding resistors to lamp sockets will make no difference if the problem also occurs with incandescent globes. The resistor load issue is related to LEDs only.
    When is it happening? While the game is in attract mode or while you're actually playing?
    You mention it's happening like a wave, can you video it?

    Does your game have the original MPU board? If yes, please post a picture showing the chip at U14 - we need to see its part number.

    #11 2 years ago

    They are also flickering , it happens in attract and play mode . It looks like a draw down of power then a slow build up again , every 1/2 to 1 second interval repeated identically as a cycle . More visible in game mode because the bulbs should remain lit as opposed to a quick cycle on/off that attract mode requests.

    I will try to get a video , however I don't have a YT account . Is there another way ?

    My game does have original MPU , with several upgrades ( previous operator owner )

    MPU (resized).pngMPU (resized).png
    MPU2 (resized).pngMPU2 (resized).png
    MPU3 (resized).pngMPU3 (resized).png

    #12 2 years ago
    Quoted from Canad-eh:

    My game does have original MPU , with several upgrades ( previous operator owner )

    What's the part number on U14? I cant read it in the pictures. Did the previous owner install all those sexy blue chip sockets?

    Are the controlled lamps on the backbox scoreboard also doing the same thing or is it only playfield lamps?

    Quoted from Canad-eh:

    I will try to get a video , however I don't have a YT account . Is there another way ?

    Pinside doesn't directly support videos so you have to upload it on some other site. You could always upload a MP4 file to http://mediafire.com which doesn't require a user account.

    #13 2 years ago

    Sexy indeed ! Yes the previous owner . U14 is blurry , I will need to get a closer look in person , later on today . Also look into a video , thanks for the info.

    The playfield is the only area with the issue , and half of the bulbs ( roughly ) flicker . I wonder if the ones that do share the same faulty component ?

    #14 2 years ago
    Quoted from Canad-eh:

    The playfield is the only area with the issue , and half of the bulbs ( roughly ) flicker . I wonder if the ones that do share the same faulty component ?

    The bulbs flickering and those that aren't should reveal a pattern. So we need to see/know which ones are doing it.

    #15 2 years ago

    Unplug the U2 and U3 switch connectors and see if the lamp issue clears. When the slam or start switch leans on the grounded coin door the lamps will go wrong too.

    U14 needs to be the 4049UB type or else the zero cross interrupt has problems which makes some lamps flicker.

    #16 2 years ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    U14 needs to be the 4049UB type or else the zero cross interrupt has problems which makes some lamps flicker.

    Having never purchased a chip before , is there any information I need specifically for my game ? Or can I just ask my local supplier for 4049UB?

    #17 2 years ago

    Looking now, U14 is a GS 9420, GD 4049B

    https://www.mediafire.com/file/wyyond1au8fw0hc/IMG_0306.MOV/file
    https://www.mediafire.com/file/hf1flzmofsdo6qp/IMG_0307.MOV/file

    2 short videos show attract mode , and game start

    Quoted from barakandl:

    Unplug the U2 and U3 switch connectors and see if the lamp issue clears. When the slam or start switch leans on the grounded coin door the lamps will go wrong too.

    I assumed you meant unplugging J2 and J3 on the mpu, I tried unplugging them with no visible change .

    #18 2 years ago

    Another video showing lamp test , I swapped out an incandescent bulb in the one thousand socket at the bottom for comparison

    https://www.mediafire.com/file/w09m7py8dhq6cap/IMG_0309.MOV/file

    #19 2 years ago
    Quoted from Canad-eh:

    Looking now, U14 is a GS 9420, GD 4049B

    Quoted from barakandl:

    U14 needs to be the 4049UB type or else the zero cross interrupt has problems which makes some lamps flicker.

    First thing to try is this ^^^
    Somebody has installed the wrong chip on that board (chip is dated 1994 so it's not original). You have a buffered 4049B chip and it needs to be an unbuffered version 4049UB, note the U in the part number.

    #20 2 years ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    First thing to try is this ^^^
    Somebody has installed the wrong chip on that board (chip is dated 1994 so it's not original). You have a buffered 4049B chip and it needs to be an unbuffered version 4049UB, note the U in the part number.

    Quench knows what he speaks of, I ran into this very problem with my Fireball Classic. Needs to be unbuffered 4049.

    #21 2 years ago

    Thank you !!

    I have a supplier near me ( television repair ) when I asked yesterday she said it could be ordered providing they have all of the part number . ( I only had 4049UB as a number )

    Manufacturer: Texas Instruments
    Manufacturer Part Number: CD4049UBE

    I found this online , should I order this ? 35 week lead time so I want to be sure .

    #22 2 years ago
    Quoted from Canad-eh:

    Thank you !!
    I have a supplier near me ( television repair ) when I asked yesterday she said it could be ordered providing they have all of the part number . ( I only had 4049UB as a number )
    Manufacturer: Texas Instruments
    Manufacturer Part Number: CD4049UBE
    I found this online , should I order this ? 35 week lead time so I want to be sure .

    ebay.com link: itm

    #23 2 years ago

    Thank you , I forgot about Ebay

    #24 2 years ago
    Quoted from Canad-eh:

    Thank you , I forgot about Ebay

    Does Jameco ship to you?
    Manufacturer p/n: CD4049UBE
    $0.49 ea
    1,947 In Stock
    https://www.jameco.com/z/CD4049UBE-Major-Brands-IC-CD4049-HEX-INVERTING-BUFFER-CONVERTER_13055.html

    (maybe with shipping this wouldn't be cheaper, but I always find at least $20 worth of stuff I "need")

    #25 2 years ago

    In the 6803 MPU they changed the zero cross detection to schmidt input chips probably because of this issue.

    Texas Instruments has their own store. The MOQ might be a tube or a couple of tubes, but the price is right and you are buying right from manufacturer.

    https://www.ti.com/store/ti/en/p/product/?p=CD4049UBE&keyMatch=CD4049UBE&tisearch=search-everything&usecase=OPN

    #26 2 years ago

    Thanks everyone !

    I purchased the chip from Great Plains , Non buffered version . As soon as it arrives I will try it out and update this thread with the results.

    #27 2 years ago

    a yt video that talks about slow transition times and zero crossing.

    #28 2 years ago

    I think what also doesn't help is if you are referencing the part from most, if not all Bally Manuals from that era, they will state U14 as a 4049B version, which is incorrect - every Bally -17/35 MPU I have seen has actually had a factory 4049UB version installed.

    #29 2 years ago
    Quoted from Joydivision:

    I think what also doesn't help is if you are referencing the part from most, if not all Bally Manuals from that era, they will state U14 as a 4049B version, which is incorrect - every Bally -17/35 MPU I have seen has actually had a factory 4049UB version installed.

    I actually own a Fireball Classic that came from the factory with a 4049B. Toward the end of the -35 era parts were running out and not all the substitutions were 100% correct.

    And yes I had to change it out due to flickering.

    #30 2 years ago
    Quoted from Joydivision:

    I think what also doesn't help is if you are referencing the part from most, if not all Bally Manuals from that era, they will state U14 as a 4049B version

    I think I read somewhere that 4049's were originally marked as 4049B and they were unbuffered. It wasn't until someone produced a buffered version that everyone changed the suffix. Don't quote me on this though.

    I have a bunch of NOS National Semiconductor CD4049C dated 1979. They work perfectly fine in this application and also the Bally -32/-50 sound boards that uses an unpowered 4049 in a very unusual fashion in the mixer section.

    CD4049CN.jpgCD4049CN.jpg

    #31 2 years ago

    Application Note PDF from Texas Instruments regarding buffered vs unbuffered for those interested.

    Below it the section mentioning buffered chip outputs potentially oscillating with slow rise inputs (i.e. our zero crossing input), along the lines of the youtube video barakandl posted.

    Understanding_Buffered_and_Unbuffered_CD4xxxB_Series_scha004.pdfUnderstanding_Buffered_and_Unbuffered_CD4xxxB_Series_scha004.pdf

    CD4049B_Output_Oscillation.pngCD4049B_Output_Oscillation.png

    #32 2 years ago

    TC4049B and HEF4049B for sure do not like the slow transition times. Like quench said a few other 4049B have worked okay. Bally probably should have used 40106, but that may not have existed in 1977. Or 4049 was cheaper and it "worked".

    That video linked even talks about the feedback resistor used. =D

    The Bally -32/-50 sound board, If I make the board play a continuous tone, swap the 4049UB for a 4049B the pitch changes just slightly. Otherwise it works OK.

    #33 2 years ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    The Bally -32/-50 sound board, If I make the board play a continuous tone, swap the 4049UB for a 4049B the pitch changes just slightly. Otherwise it works OK.

    Yesterday when looking this up I came across a guitar forum that had some small discussion of 4049UB vs 4049B used in some guitar pedals where the unbuffered 4049 was required due to the FET gain being small enough to be biased in a linear fashion, whereas the buffered chips had too much gain and distorted. So I don't think Bally were unique in the way they used the 4049UB for analog mixing on their audio board.

    https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?PHPSESSID=jnnblpmeq4rqk6icv3ckik19b5&topic=116440.msg1078181#msg1078181

    2 weeks later
    #34 2 years ago

    Resolved ! Wow great work !

    I received the CD4049UBE chip yesterday from GPE , popped it in and success ! Solid lights , not a flicker to be seen .

    Big shout out to Quench and Barakandl , without your help this may never have been resolved properly . Also saved me a bunch of time and money !!

    Such a great community of intelligent and experienced men and women . Thanks for your help everyone !

    A few side notes ,

    I was so happy and excited with the results my first game up and running , smashed my high score ! I was a drop target sniper on 5x all the way up to the saucer ( Paragon ) Pinball is so fun !!!!

    Also GPE sent me 3 extra chips , if anyone out there needs one fire me a PM .

    Cheers

    #35 2 years ago

    Phew man what a journey; great job!

    #36 2 years ago

    Those 2 are absolute rockstars. They are both super knowledgeable and make Pinside a better place for sure. Congrats on resolving the problem!

    #37 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Phew man what a journey; great job!

    Phew is right ! It was odd reading all the posts about how the new board would fix any , and all flickering, but in my case it didn’t… until the eagle eyes spotted the missing “U “ on that tiny chip

    Quoted from FatPanda:

    Those 2 are absolute rockstars. They are both super knowledgeable and make Pinside a better place for sure. Congrats on resolving the problem!

    Rockstars indeed! As a millwright by trade I grew up in my career learning from brilliant people, this information being passed on is an extension of that learning , every day something new!

    Our society depends on apprenticeship
    Food for thought

    2 years later
    #38 67 days ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    Unplug the U2 and U3 switch connectors and see if the lamp issue clears. When the slam or start switch leans on the grounded coin door the lamps will go wrong too.
    U14 needs to be the 4049UB type or else the zero cross interrupt has problems which makes some lamps flicker.

    Not to bump an old thread, but I just wanted to say thanks!

    I just grabbed a FBC that was having this flicker issue, updated U14 to a CD4049UBE from the 4049B and it works flawlessly

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