(Topic ID: 145918)

Bally display - dead. Ideas?

By pinball_faz

8 years ago


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DisplayBoard_Top.jpg
DisplayBoard_TopR1R3R5.jpg
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#1 8 years ago

I have a display on my Bally Star Trek that stopped working. The issue moves with the display, so I'm confident that the issue is tied to the board.

The display board was hacktastic from a prior owner...but it worked. Traces lifted and it was just a mess. I had a few extra display boards without glass, so I cleaned one up and put the old glass into the clean(er) board.

The display is still dark. no glow, no segments light at all in test.

All the pins look firmly in place coming out of the glass. I double checked my work for solder splash/continuity to the downstream component. All is good.

Any ideas? This is a more modern replacement glass... check the photos.

TIA,
faz

DisplayBoard_Back.jpgDisplayBoard_Back.jpg
DisplayBoard_Under.jpgDisplayBoard_Under.jpg

#2 8 years ago

Wow...Along the bottom of your photo above are a mess of cold solder joints....Especially the 6 on the left. Reflow solder on these pins.

#3 8 years ago

Agreed, many cold joint or not enough solder. One pad missing so who knows it there is a connection on the top side missing. A few traces are scraped and might be broken. Just a mess.

#4 8 years ago

All the traces from the glass are good. I checked continuity from every pin on the glass to the pad at the other end of the trace. The one pin without a pad has no destination. I think it was just there to add structure to the board.

This board has no traces on the other side of the board, so, there should be no through hole plates.

Hmm, I did not check the header pins/those traces. I'll reflow the solder and test.
faz

#5 8 years ago

Almost every male pin in your header strip has a broken solder joint.

#6 8 years ago

You can see the dark circle around the pins. This is a broken solder joint. Remove all the solder that you can. Don't reuse the solder that is there. You can create cold solder trying to blend in new solder or reusing existing solder.

broken_solder_joints.pngbroken_solder_joints.png

#7 8 years ago

The I removed the old solder, added new. Tested continuity from pin to end of trace. All test out good. No solder bridges either.

No dice. The display is 100% dark.

I checked TP2 - 177V and TP1 5V...

Can I check the voltage at the pins out of the glass for further clues?

faz

DisplayBoard_HeaderReflowed.jpgDisplayBoard_HeaderReflowed.jpg

#8 8 years ago

Can you see an orange glow in the front of the glass?
That will tell us if High Voltage is getting to the display glass.

#9 8 years ago

No glow at all. HV is at the testpoint and I traced the circuit to glass pin #6 from the left. I have HV on the pin going into the glass.

Does that mean the glass is bad?

btw...that's not the correct photo. I reflowed the solder to begin with but when I saw the blow up of the photo, I saw a hairline on the 6th pin from the left. That's when I removed the old solder and added fresh. When I uploaded, I pushed the wrong one. Both photos deleted already.... trust me.... it looks good.
faz

#10 8 years ago

Did you trim the glass legs after installing the glass? I would be worried some pins are shorting out to the metal display holder in the white lamp board.
You could hold the display outside of the holder and retest or trim the glass legs.

#11 8 years ago

I did not trim it. However, I barely pushed the display assembly into the lamp board. Just far enough to catch. There's no chance of it touching anything.
faz

#12 8 years ago

Can you take a picture of all the components on the top side of the display board?

#13 8 years ago

Resistors R1, R3, R5, R7, R9, and R11 look burnt, as does the board around them. Each one connects to a digit, so if they're all open, then you won't see any digits. I think you would still see the glow at the bottom, but not all displays do this. Regardless, you should change out those 100K 1/4 watt resistors with 1/2 watt versions.

You can test a display tube out of circuit by holding it near one of those plasma balls you get from Spencer Gifts. If there is gas in the tube, it will glow. Don't touch the leads when you do this.

plasma.jpgplasma.jpg

#14 8 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Can you take a picture of all the components on the top side of the display board?

Sure, I'll need to do this tomorrow. Boy Scout outing tonight.

Quoted from Vector:

by holding it near one of those plasma balls

I don't have one of those. I have a Lava Lamp, but I suspect not the same impact

faz

#15 8 years ago
Quoted from pinball_faz:

Boy Scout outing tonight.

Enjoy!! I miss those days when I was younger. I had a lot of fun.

#16 8 years ago

Ok, I got some sleep after an all-nighter Lock-In.

Here's a photo of the top components. W/ a close-up of R1,R3,R5 (looks toasty from the back).

I'm NOT an electronics guy, so, what I'm doing here is based upon other posts and YouTube videos. I have heard that I can test components in circuit and compare the reading between another device.

I have several display boards, so I picked a good one to compare to.
I tested all resistors, transistors, caps and the diode.
All the transistors test "ok" and consistent between both boards.
The diode looks good too.
Both caps are consistent and within spec.
The resistors for the most part are the same with the exception of my toasty R1,R3,R5 and R7,R9,R11.

R1,R3,R5 are testing about 50K as opposed to the required 100K
R7,R9,R11 are testing 70-80K each.

Would that cause the issue? I have replaced some resistors on a board that I fixed before, but it caused only one segment to drop...not all of them.
faz

DisplayBoard_Top.jpgDisplayBoard_Top.jpg
DisplayBoard_TopR1R3R5.jpgDisplayBoard_TopR1R3R5.jpg

#17 8 years ago

R1,R3,R5,R7,R9,R11 all look to have been replaced with a different type of resistor than original.

#18 8 years ago

This is true, but the color banding looks Brown, Black, Yellow, Gold (100K +/-5%).... which is the correct component.

So, my question still stands. Would this failure of these components cause ALL segments to die? I suppose I can just swap them out. I have a stack of 100K resistors. I'm just trying to understand the problem before I start shot-gunning the fix.
faz

#19 8 years ago

I think I had other resistor location failures. I'm checking into it.

#20 8 years ago

If the display is gassed out you are wasting your time fussing with the display.

Resolder the header pins and try again. If there is zero glow, you have HV at the test point. The glass is dead.

From experience... the glass you in your picture sucks. They split open at the sides and the gas leaks out worse than other brands of displays. Glass with a "nipple" in general seem to be more likely to still be working in 2015 than glass with no nipple.

#21 8 years ago

I did resolder the headers and I do have HV to the glass....still dead.

PBL seems to have new glass, but for $60.

Any other sources?
faz

#22 8 years ago

You stated in the first post that it was working.
Were the segments bright or dim before the display failed?

#23 8 years ago

When testing resistors used to bias transistors, one end should be removed from the circuit to get a valid reading.

As for testing the glass, Bally engineering showed a simple trick at the service schools;

With the installed glass, make sure the legs are trimmed flush with the bottom of the PCB. Take a new glass and line all of the legs up with the respective pads on the board. You do this with the game on, in display test mode. Be careful as there is 190VDC or more. Steady hands are required. I keep a spare glass around just to do this.

#24 8 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

You stated in the first post that it was working.
Were the segments bright or dim before the display failed?

When it worked...it all worked. There were no segments out, bright or otherwise. Otherwise, I would have repaired it then. I don't let issues sit.

Quoted from MrBally:

With the installed glass, make sure the legs are trimmed flush with the bottom of the PCB. Take a new glass and line all of the legs up with the respective pads on the board. You do this with the game on, in display test mode. Be careful as there is 190VDC or more. Steady hands are required. I keep a spare glass around just to do this.

I actually thought about this. I have another display that I keep for testing. It's the whole assembly...works but has several bad burn marks. I did not want to de-solder the glass...but was considering if I could test a segment at a time by using jumpers. I can't make heads nor tails out of the schematic.... there's only 32 pins, but it mentions pin numbers up to 40.

Anyone got a map of the glass inputs?
faz

#25 8 years ago
Quoted from pinball_faz:

I did resolder the headers and I do have HV to the glass....still dead.
PBL seems to have new glass, but for $60.
Any other sources?
faz

http://ilaina.wix.com/wolffpac-tech

#26 8 years ago

How they match to the old ones? I'd be concerned about the color of the one display matching the other four.
faz

#27 8 years ago
Quoted from pinball_faz:

When it worked...it all worked. There were no segments out, bright or otherwise. Otherwise, I would have repaired it then. I don't let issues sit.

Just was trying to help determine if possibly the glass was outgassing knowing how bright the segments were before it went out.

#28 8 years ago

The wolf LED replacement are a good option. I did a review and a few others have as well. I liked it just fine. Color match not perfect but for one display I put mine in the ball credit display. So if 4 players things do seem even. Depends on how picky you are I guess.
Price was a big factor for me.
Plus you will have fun building it if you go that route. Seems like you are perfectly handy like that.

#29 8 years ago

could it be that the display driver chip is bad?

#30 8 years ago

Sure it can, you can test the outputs of the chip, and inputs, and compare to a good board.
also, chk the ground, if everything is good cept the ground, no go.

#31 8 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

.... The glass is dead.
From experience... the glass you in your picture sucks. ....

^^^ What he said. ^^^

I have a pile of those, including a half-dozen or so that were NOS - all dead. The glass in your picture sucks.

<insert vomiting smiley here>

Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Just was trying to help determine if possibly the glass was outgassing knowing how bright the segments were before it went out.

Yesterday it worked great. Today it's dead. That's how they are.

#32 8 years ago

True story.....

I bought two displays from Williams System 6. Seller advertised them as tested working and I believe him.

I put one display in my Time Warp to replace a bad one. It lasted no more than a week before it gassed out. The glass delaminated and the gas escaped out.... dead dead dead... trash.

Can't fault the seller really, I just ate it. The other one he sold me is still working fine.

#33 8 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

True story.....
I bought two displays from Williams System 6. Seller advertised them as tested working and I believe him.
I put one display in my Time Warp to replace a bad one. It lasted no more than a week before it gassed out. The glass delaminated and the gas escaped out.... dead dead dead... trash.
Can't fault the seller really, I just ate it. The other one he sold me is still working fine.

That is the one without the nipple in the back?

#34 8 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

That is the one without the nipple in the back?

I honestly don't remember nipple or not. Did you sell me those? I wasnt trying to snarky or anything. No big deal, it happens.

#35 8 years ago

Actually the one display I could get no sign of life from looked the nicest, newest and no nipple. The manufacturing process for those style must be much different and not as high of quality. Very interesting. Those were likely sold in bulk at around 5$ per unit and they are now being sold for 60$ per unit sounds about right.

#36 8 years ago

Sometimes, even NOS ones quickly outgass as soon as they are heated up for a few days.

Make sure you all turn your voltage down as low as your displays will go, but still light up, on the SDB, or you will be burning lot's more of them out.

NOS displays sometimes need 6 hours of higher voltage to "burn in" and then you can lower the voltage back into the 170s.

#37 8 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

I honestly don't remember nipple or not. Did you sell me those? I wasnt trying to snarky or anything. No big deal, it happens.

No. I'm trying to gain some experience as I have a Gorgar and Time Warp I need to work on.
Trying to figure out how to test out glass displays for outgassing other than soldering it to a working display.

#38 8 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

No. I'm trying to gain some experience as I have a Gorgar and Time Warp I need to work on.
Trying to figure out how to test out glass displays for outgassing other than soldering it to a working display.

Oh.

It is easy with wms 3-6. Just rotate glass into a known working player position to test. If all the displays are out look for -100v and +100v leaving the power supply board and work back to the fuse.

#39 8 years ago

If you aren't too hung-up on 100% originality you can buy a complete new Pinscore or Xpin LED display for less than $60 and be done with it. They work great and you can eliminate the high-voltage area of your solenoid driver board. Plug & play. Probably the single best replacement upgrade to come out for these older machines.

IMG_2542.JPGIMG_2542.JPG

The Kiss on the left has Pinscore LED displays and the Rolling Stones has original plasmas. There is a knob on the Pinscores to adjust the brightness so you can match the intensity of the plasmas. At full intensity the LEDs are a lot brighter.

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