(Topic ID: 236395)

Bally Cybernaut reset and sound issues

By squad8

5 years ago


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    There are 107 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
    #1 5 years ago

    I have a Bally Cybernaut with multiple issues. Originally the Cheap Squeak sound board had a burnt tantalum at c10. I replaced c10 and all of the electrolytic capacitors, and now the led blinks 3 times, and stays on on the forth. I have sound when I push the test switch on the sound board, but not in game play. Also after I replaced the capacitors the mpu would not boot with the sound board plugged in, but it would without the sound board connected. Now for some reason in does power up when connected. The other problem is that the flippers will cause the mpu to reset. I have installed 2 new coils, and any of the flipper coils will cause the reset. The mpu is a 6802, with voltages as follows;
    Tp1=5.2
    Tp2=15.7
    Tp3=44.5
    Tp5=5.2
    Tp6=13.6
    I noticed that R4 a 2k resistor is burnt, but still reads 2k, and in the notes on the schematics states that the board should either have R4, or D1. This board has both.
    I tried a older Bally mpu to check the flippers, and had no resets. I also took the 6802 mpu, and put in a different game, and also had no resets. I also put a different solenoid driver board that has been rebuilt with no change.
    Any help would be appreciated.

    #2 5 years ago

    I forgot to mention that I checked all the boards and reflowed any connector pins that needed reflowed. I also pulled the switch connectors off of the mpu, and still had resets from the flippers.

    #3 5 years ago
    Quoted from squad8:

    I noticed that R4 a 2k resistor is burnt, but still reads 2k, and in the notes on the schematics states that the board should either have R4, or D1. This board has both.

    The schematic states D1 or R16 should be installed. R4 should always be installed.

    This game isn't a Bi-Phase switched illumination game.
    R4 is currently seeing 43 volts (instead of 21.5 volts it should be) which is causing it to dissipate nearly 4 times the power (well beyond what it's rated at) and that's why it's burning. You need to remove D1 and install R16 (2k ohm resistor). I usually replace both of these 2k resistors with 1/2 watt variants because the 1/4 watt rated resistors in use are running close to their max rating. I have seen them go open circuit from fatigue.

    It might be possible that the MPU boards 5V supply rail is seeing high voltage spikes/dips when you activate the flippers because of the excessive voltage at R4 from the solenoid power rail. It's potentially a reason for the resets.

    #4 5 years ago

    I will replace R4, R16, and remove D1, and report back. Could the sound problem be related as well?
    Thanks

    #5 5 years ago

    Making a little progress, I removed D1, and replaced R4, and R16. The voltage on tp3 is down to 22 volts, but it still resets with the flippers. It will power with the sound board plugged in about half of the time. Pushing the test button on the sound board is a little intermittent, but most of the time I get sound. There is no sounds in game play.

    #6 5 years ago

    You sure you didn't install any of the capacitor on the sound board backwards?

    What state is the female connector in that plugs into the sound board?

    What voltages are you measuring at test points TP1, TP2 and TP3 on the sound board?

    If you have a logic probe, are you getting activity on the four "SND SEL" and "SOUND INTERRUPT" inputs on the sound board during sound playback?

    What's the voltages at test points TP5 and TP1 on the solenoid driver board?

    #7 5 years ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    You sure you didn't install any of the capacitor on the sound board backwards?
    What state is the female connector in that plugs into the sound board?
    What voltages are you measuring at test points TP1, TP2 and TP3 on the sound board?
    If you have a logic probe, are you getting activity on the four "SND SEL" and "SOUND INTERRUPT" inputs on the sound board during sound playback?
    What's the voltages at test points TP5 and TP1 on the solenoid driver board?

    The capacitors on the sound board are in correct, including the tantalum.

    Voltages on sound board TP1 fluctuates from 13.33-13.57
    TP2 4.95
    TP3 0.05

    Voltages on soleniod driver board TP1 5.26
    TP5 15.70

    I read on one of the guides that it is common for CR5-8 to become leaky, and cause resets, so I replaced the 4 of them.
    I still have resets by the flippers.

    Waiting on my logic probe for the rest.

    #8 5 years ago

    Voltages look ok other than the sound board TP1 fluctuating. If you put your black meter lead on another ground point, do you get a stable voltage reading?

    BTW, does the flipper reset happen intermittently or every time you first flip in game mode?
    Does it require both left and right flippers to be activated at the same time or only one (either/specific) side?
    When it resets does the game play the alarm you hear when you slam tilt the game?

    #9 5 years ago

    The resets are intermittent, I replaced both lower coils, and had resets with either flipper, with any of the coils. I disabled the upper flipper to eliminate it as a problem. Sometimes they reset every time, and others maybe not for 10 or so flips.

    Without any sounds, I don’t get a alarm. I have started a game and pulled the switch connectors off of the mpu, and still get resets with the switch matrix unhooked.

    I will check TP1 on the sound board, and report back.

    #10 5 years ago

    With the logic probe on pins 1, 2, 3, 4, & 8 on the sound board they are all high. If I plug the connector back in they stay high, but I am back to the point that it will not power up with the sound board connected.
    I rechecked TP1 on the sound board using a different ground, and have a stable 13.46 volts.
    The other thing that I noticed as far as the resets go, is if I pick up 5 volts for the logic probe on TP5 on the mpu when I hook or unhook it causes the mpu to reset.

    #11 5 years ago
    Quoted from squad8:

    The other thing that I noticed as far as the resets go, is if I pick up 5 volts for the logic probe on TP5 on the mpu when I hook or unhook it causes the mpu to reset.

    ??? Check if this is a mechanical problem by you flexing the MPU board a little around TP5.
    Where are you hooking up the logic probe to ground when you're doing this? somewhere in the backbox or the Gnd test point TP4 on the MPU board?
    How much voltage do you measure at TP5 on the MPU board when you use a common backbox ground point for the black meter lead vs using TP4 ground on the MPU board?
    .

    How many flashes are you getting on the MPU board LED when the game doesn't boot?

    #12 5 years ago

    I am fairly sure that it is not mechanical, I have flexed, and tapped on the mpu with no resets.
    As far as the ground I have been using the backbox braid for voltages, and the logic probe. Rechecking TP5 on the mpu the voltage is 5.20 using TP4 or the backbox ground.
    When I plug the sound board in the led on the mpu just keeps blinking.

    #13 5 years ago

    If you disconnect J1, J2 and J3 from the MPU board (leave J4 connected only) does the MPU LED still blink forever?

    If you swap the two 6821 chips on the MPU board with each other, does it change anything?

    On the sound board are you measuring zero ohms continuity between the negative leg of capacitor C24 and TP3 (Gnd) on the sound board?

    On the J1 connector of the sound board, pull out the wires coming from the MPU board one at a time to isolate the connections and see if you can narrow down which signal is causing the boot issue.
    Start with the wire at pin 8 on the sound board connector. If no difference then the wire at pin 2, then 1 then 3 and finally 4.

    #14 5 years ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    If you disconnect J1, J2 and J3 from the MPU board (leave J4 connected only) does the MPU LED still blink forever?

    It still continues to blink.

    If you swap the two 6821 chips on the MPU board with each other, does it change anything?

    No change.

    On the sound board are you measuring zero ohms continuity between the negative leg of capacitor C24 and TP3 (Gnd) on the sound board?

    It measures 0 ohms.

    On the J1 connector of the sound board, pull out the wires coming from the MPU board one at a time to isolate the connections and see if you can narrow down which signal is causing the boot issue.
    Start with the wire at pin 8 on the sound board connector. If no difference then the wire at pin 2, then 1 then 3 and finally 4.

    I pulled the wires one at a time, and have all 5 unhooked, and it still continues to blink. If I unplug J1 it powers up.

    #15 5 years ago

    To clarify, unplugging J1 from the MPU board makes the MPU board LED blink 7 times and then the LED goes dim like it should?

    #16 5 years ago

    No J1 on the sound board.

    #17 5 years ago

    With those 5 wires unhooked from the sound board you disconnected all the logic signals from the MPU board to the sound board. That just left the sound board with ground and the unregulated 12V connected.

    So it's pointing to a problem with your unregulated 12V supply and a problem here could cause the flipper resets.

    Which solenoid driver board (SDB) have you got? Bally factory or some aftermarket SDB?
    If factory SDB, is the big capacitor at C23 original?

    #18 5 years ago

    I was using a spare factory solenoid driver board, that had the caps replaced. I just put the original factory sdu that I rebuilt, new caps, 5 volt, and high voltage circuit. I have the same issue with both boards. I also did the recommended ground upgrades.

    #19 5 years ago

    Can you post some clear high res pictures preferably taken outdoors in shade (so your camera gets maximum natural light without shadows) of this MPU board front and back?

    #20 5 years ago
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    #21 5 years ago

    Hmm, I can't see anything abnormal in the pics.

    Question: are you hooking up a battery to this MPU board when it's in the machine?

    #22 5 years ago

    No battery, if I can get it fixed, I am going to get a NVRAM.

    #23 5 years ago

    Just in case this may help.

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    #24 5 years ago

    Humor me, please hook up a battery pack with blocking diode.
    This board isn't a standard Bally -35 board. The reset section and battery backed RAM rely a little more on a battery being present.

    #25 5 years ago

    With the battery pack hooked up, and the sound board plugged in it seems to boot every time. It still resets with the flippers. I have constant static from the speaker, and no sounds in game play or test, but if I push the test switch on the sound board I get sound.

    #26 5 years ago

    Also the mpu is a 6802.

    #27 5 years ago
    Quoted from squad8:

    With the battery pack hooked up, and the sound board plugged in it seems to boot every time.

    Ok, set your logic probe switches to "TTL" and "Pulse". Hook it up (black lead to ground, red lead to +5V). Do you now get any activity on the four "SND SEL" and "SOUND INTERRUPT" inputs on the sound board during sound test mode?

    Quoted from squad8:

    It still resets with the flippers.

    With your logic probe still hooked up, probe pin 40 (top left pin) of the 6802 CPU. Hold the probe there, it should indicate High. If you tap a flipper button with the other hand a few times, do you notice the yellow "pulse" LED or green Low LED on the logic probe flicker when the game resets?

    Quoted from squad8:

    Also the mpu is a 6802.

    Yes, and don't forget when you get a NVRAM you require a 5114 compatible replacement, not standard 5101 replacement.

    I've gotta bail so will check in later.

    #28 5 years ago

    Sound board J1 pins 1, and 8, are high, pins 2,3, and 4 are high with pulse.

    The 6802, pin 40 is high, then when I get a reset the pulse blinks, then low, and back to high.

    I am still getting random resets with the sound board plugged in as well.

    #29 5 years ago

    Now all of a sudden it will not power up at all. It started randomly resetting with the sound board unplugged, in game over. Now it is to point that the led just keeps blinking. I have a power supply to bench test with, and it does the same on the bench.

    #30 5 years ago

    If you have a spare 6802 chip, swap it in.

    #31 5 years ago

    I have a 6800, but not a 6802.

    Thanks

    #32 5 years ago

    Sorry for the delay.

    Quoted from squad8:

    The 6802, pin 40 is high, then when I get a reset the pulse blinks, then low, and back to high.

    So something is triggering the reset circuitry on the MPU board.

    How much voltage do you measure across zener diode D2 on the MPU board (bottom left corner)? Put your black multi-meter lead on the lower diode leg, red meter lead on the upper diode leg to ready the voltage across the zener.

    Quoted from squad8:

    Now it is to point that the led just keeps blinking. I have a power supply to bench test with, and it does the same on the bench.

    With your bench testing the MPU board and the LED non stop flashing, is the reset line on the CPU (pin 40) steady high or is it pulsing low every now and then? If it's pulsing, how many LED flashes between the reset line pulsing low?

    #33 5 years ago

    I have 7.11 volts across D2.

    It does pulse low, I would say 3 flashes in between the the low pulse.

    #34 5 years ago
    Quoted from squad8:

    I have 7.11 volts across D2.

    That's too low. It should be over 7.8 volts and preferably closer to 8.2V which is what that zener diode spec is. I don't think it's your problem, but please change it if you have a spare.

    With your logic probe, what's happening on pin 13 of U15 (input to the reset pulse chip) during this never ending LED flashing?

    Quoted from squad8:

    It does pulse low, I would say 3 flashes in between the the low pulse.

    Battery still hooked up to the MPU board? What happens if you pull out the 21C14 memory chip at U6?

    #35 5 years ago

    I don’t have a 8.2 volt zener.

    Pin 13 of U15 is high and I get a quick pulse on the third led flash.

    If I pull U6 I get 3 flashes and it stops.

    #36 5 years ago
    Quoted from squad8:

    If I pull U6 I get 3 flashes and it stops.

    Are you counting the initial power on LED flicker as a flash?
    Without the battery backed RAM at U6, on power up you should get a quick flicker, flash, pause then 2nd flash and that's it.

    With the RAM reinstalled at U6, what voltage do you measure on pin 16 of U15? Does it change after every 3 LED flashes?

    #37 5 years ago

    Yes I was counting the original flash.

    Pin 16 of U15, seems to hold steady at 5.0 volts, and I don’t notice a change after the 3 flashes.

    #38 5 years ago
    Quoted from squad8:

    I don’t have a 8.2 volt zener.

    For now, if you have a spare 1N4148, 1N4004 or 1N4007 diode, can you put it in series with the D2 zener diode to add an extra 0.6V voltage drop?
    i.e. unsolder the banded side of the zener and lift that leg out of the board. Solder a generic diode banded leg to the banded side of the zener. Solder the other leg of the generic diode into the board where the banded leg of the zener originally was. This should lift the voltage across the zener points on the board to around 7.7 volts.

    Am wondering if the RAM at U6 is suspect. First, please add a generic diode to the zener and lets see what happens.

    #39 5 years ago

    I just pulled a zener out of another mpu, and installed it. Now I have 8.01 volts across it, but it still continues to flash.

    #40 5 years ago

    I can order a NVRAM to see if that is the problem.

    #41 5 years ago

    Power on the board and then jumper a piece of wire from the lower leg of resistor R24 to pin 18 of the RAM chip at U6. This should stop the reset circuit reactivating.
    What happens to the LED flashing?

    #42 5 years ago

    The led stops flashing with the jumper on.

    #43 5 years ago

    Can you power the board off then back on with the jumper wire still in place? How many LED flashes do you get?

    #44 5 years ago

    When I can get it to flash I get 6 flashes. Sometimes the led will be on solid, and sometimes it will not do anything.

    #45 5 years ago
    Quoted from squad8:

    When I can get it to flash I get 6 flashes. Sometimes the led will be on solid, and sometimes it will not do anything.

    Timing of the reset circuitry is critical to how the CPU starts up. Since that jumper wire is essentially bypassing the reset delay circuit on powerup, depending on when you power the board and how much the caps on the board were still charged from the last power down, startup will be unpredictable as you just saw (sometimes boot success, sometimes the CPU starts before power has stabilised and crashes).

    On this revision MPU board, Bally have added some protection circuit to the battery backed RAM at U6 to prevent data corruption on powerup.
    What appears to be happening is on powerup when the CPU begins to test the RAM at U6, the signal to enable the RAM is causing the protection circuit that's powered by the "battery voltage" to crumble and is causing the reset circuit at U15 (also powered by the "battery voltage") to reactivate.

    At this point I would remove the RAM at U6, carefully bend pin 18 out and reinstall the chip with pin 18 hanging out. Connect pin 18 to 5V power on the MPU board so it's no longer being powered by the "battery voltage".

    Another thing you could temporarily try is disabling the RAM protection circuit. Remove resistors R9 and R10 and short out diode D5.

    However I have a feeling the problem may be upstream in the "Valid Power Detector" circuit on the MPU board because your other issues with the flipper resets and hooking up the sound board are more likely to be propagated onto the 12V supply line going onto the MPU board where it's used in the valid power detector circuit. Mind you, you have now corrected the voltage across that zener diode.

    The Valid Power Detector circuit on the MPU board shown in the schematics has a few voltages listed at various components. Might be worth checking those voltages..

    #46 5 years ago

    I bent pin 18 of U6 and connected it to 5 volts, and the game powers up. I don’t get any resets with the flippers now. Also it does boot with the sound board plugged in, but I only get static.
    As far as the mpu goes, should I do the other recommendations, or since it powers up do I need to move on to something else?

    #47 5 years ago

    Some of the voltage on the Valid Power Detector are not right. The anode of D2 is 8.0, and the schematic list 5, R17, R1, R2 are 4.4 rather than 2.8, and the collector of Q1 is .04 instead of.3

    #48 5 years ago
    Quoted from squad8:

    I bent pin 18 of U6 and connected it to 5 volts, and the game powers up. I don’t get any resets with the flippers now...
    As far as the mpu goes, should I do the other recommendations, or since it powers up do I need to move on to something else?

    Please try replacing diode D4 (with a 1N4004), and then disconnect pin 18 of the RAM chip from the +5DC supply you hooked up to and connect pin 18 back to any "battery voltage" (aka VAUX on the schematic) point like the top leg of resistor R3.

    Quoted from squad8:

    Also it does boot with the sound board plugged in, but I only get static.

    The sound board static is likely a separate issue.

    Quoted from squad8:

    Some of the voltage on the Valid Power Detector are not right. The anode of D2 is 8.0, and the schematic list 5, R17, R1, R2 are 4.4 rather than 2.8, and the collector of Q1 is .04 instead of.3

    Your "unreg 11.9VDC" measured 15.2V at TP2 on the MPU board which is about right when you factor in the large capacitor on the solenoid driver board removing the majority of the DC ripple on that supply rail. So 8.0 volts on the anode of D2 is no surprise and has propagated to other voltages you measured.
    If it concerns you and your transformer is still wired for 115VAC, change it to 120VAC (with the power cord disconnected from the wall).

    BTW, what's the history of this machine/board? Was it working and then started to fail, or did you buy it with these problems?

    #49 5 years ago

    I replaced D4, and hooked pin 18 of U6 to the top of R3. Now the game will not power up and the led continues to blink.

    As far as the history of the game I am trying to fix it for someone else. They have had the game for a long time, and it was working when he got it, but it hasn’t worked for years. The sound went out first, later it completely quit. When I started it had blown fuses, with the high voltage, and 5 volt section of the solenoid driver board bad.

    #50 5 years ago

    Before you replied, I modified my post #35 above to change D4 from a 1N4148 to a 1N4004. Which type diode did you use?

    There are 107 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.

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