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(Topic ID: 276538)

Bally County Fair Bingo - Bad pics - Help Needed - R Button switch stack


By smohr

47 days ago



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  • 28 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 days ago by smohr
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There have been 4 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

R-Button-Path_with_jumpers (resized).jpg
search_index_lock_magnet (resized).jpg
R-Button_wiring_labeled (resized).jpg
20200902_135517 (resized).jpg

#1 47 days ago

Well I did it... i did not take good enough pics and after I tore it apart, crap I cant tell what the wiring layer sequence is on the stack. Can I get a pic of the layers of a properly installed switch stack for the R button.

I REALLY appreciate it

thanks
Steve

#2 47 days ago

the spacer wafer arrangement and extra blades the button shaft touches (if any) will look pretty much like the switch stacks under the left and right buttons.

the r-button switches are:
- white/yellow 53-18 and white/blue 52-9 wires. Normally open (closes when button pushed). Switch powers search index coil
- white 50-16 and blue/red 21-3. Normally open. In circuit to power shutter motor when collecting an OK game.

all your wires look gray? If you can't tell, the easy thing is to pull the cabinet plugs and use an ohmeter/continuity tester to identify the wires using the plug chart in the manual.

got a picture of what you have?

#3 47 days ago

Thank you for the description. This is what i have.

20200902_135517 (resized).jpg
#4 47 days ago

oops ... I missed the third switch:

wire 21-3 to 54-11 - normally open - resets the timer unit

the double wire with the short bit on your gesture finger is 21-3.

the white/green 54-11 you can tell ... I think. There's a white/green and a white/blue. White/blue looks like the bottom wire. Follow the wires back into the harness a little and see if the green gets brighter.

that leaves white and white/yellow.

can you take side view pics of both sides, and is stack as it exists factory or has some of those pieces been separated also?

#5 47 days ago

Thank you... Well, I had it all apart.

Im tracking the wires down on the schematic and will trace them back. I'll follow-up when I hopefully have it set....

This is one way to get familiar with my machine, diving in head first

Thanks for your help

#6 46 days ago
Quoted from smohr:

Thank you... Well, I had it all apart.

that's good ... your picture doesn't look like the wires would be connecting correctly in the stack you assembled so far

if you're head scratching by this weekend, email me at bingopics@cdyn.com and I'll take some pics of a switch in a screen game on saturday. I could probably cut the switch out too.

#7 46 days ago

Thanks for the "Head scratcher" offer. This is what I have laid out (held together with a binder clip).

Top switch (Timer Unit) - the 1st wire is that pigtail (54 White/Green) coming from 21-3 Blue/Red, the 2nd wire is 54-11 White/Green.

Middle switch (Shutter Motor) - the 1st wire is 21-3 Blue/Red, the 2nd wire is 50-16 White.

Bottom switch (Search Index Coil) - the 1st wire is 53-18 White/Yellow, the 2nd wire is White/Blue.

Im thick skinned, so any thoughts/comments are appreciated.

Thanks
Steve

R-Button_wiring_labeled (resized).jpg
#8 46 days ago

could be camera angle, but I'd guess the second blade from the top and the bottom blade need to be swapped ... not the wires connected to those positions, but the blades themselves to get the contacts to line up with each other.

also, unless the two contacts are high power tungsten disc-shaped ones, you should have a dome shape contact touching a disc shape contact.

take a look at the switches under the left and right buttons to see how they look.

it's kinda odd that the bottom switch is relying on the fish paper insulator and the middle switch to push the blade down. Typically there'd be another long blade with a white nylon cylinder ... but maybe not in this case.

if it works and doesn't short stuff together that shouldn't be connected, if you make sure the contacts are aligned, the rest is pedantic

#9 45 days ago

Hi baldtwit,

The stack is back together, thanks for catching the 2 blades being incorrect.

Same result, the "search index lock magnet" never pulls in.

I do have continuity from the Footrail "R" switch back to the "search index lock magnet"

The coil ohm reading is 50. Im not sure if that is correct I cant find that on the chart I have. The coil wrapper is gone and from what I can tell from the manual , it is not shown.

Any idea what that coil number should be?

Could that "search index lock magnet" be bad?

Thanks for you patience and assistance.

Steve

#10 44 days ago

I pulled a search wiper lock coil from a roller derby. It was a k-303 @ 27.5 ohms. It may not have been the original coil tho ... I shoulda taken it apart there and looked in more games.

you have to remove the coil from the bracket and look at the bottom to see the part number. It's on a paper band wound around the lug area.

the usual coil part number when it appeared in manuals was C-2794-303

make sure you dig the meter probes thru surface oxidation to get a good resistance measurement.

a higher resistance coil will be weaker and if the clutches are sticky there could be too much force on the armature plate for the coil to drag it out of the notch, but that doesn't seem likely.

touching a jumper wire from wire 30 to wire 52-9 on the coil will prove if the coil is ok. Wire 70 is the fat orange - usually double - wire on the coil. 52-9 is the other lug.

you have the stack wired ok. 54-11 and 50-16 are swapped, but it doesn't make a functional difference.

#11 44 days ago

Thank you, i will check all that out and report back

Thanks again

#12 44 days ago

oh ... forgot the pedantic annoying bit ...

all the switch blades have the domed contact on the top side.

#13 43 days ago

I've been through some manuals making notes on the coils used when I had nothing better to do, I don't see any reference to the coil in any of the manuals I've looked at so far except the Miss America '75 and Malibu Beach, both of which note it's a FD-30-1300, the old number for this coil was E-184-248. Action Pinball's web site (out of Salt Lake, I think the guy's name was Ray years ago) says it's 22 ohms.

#14 43 days ago

the changing part numbers and small variations between similar coils is just something to put up with .. or take advantage of.

C-2794-303 is the early part number. Shoot-A-Line and Lite-A-Line manuals had it, and those are the same time frame as the screen games (except Malibu Beach). That number was still used on Bonus 7 in 1970, and appeared occasionally in manuals up to that time.

FD-30-1300 was used on most games after Bonus 7, starting with Stock Market.

if the manuals are right ... and that's a big if on the 1970's game ...

EA-29-950 was used on Ticker Tape in 1972. Same as the search index coil.
ED-30-1300 was used on Miss America Supreme - probably a typo

to further confuse things:

E-184-248 new part number was FC-30-1300.

difference between FC and FD ... dunno. The format of the "new" style numbers is:
bobbin id - wire gauge - number of turns of wire around bobbin

besides the obvious size and shape differences for the bobbin there was stuff like location of the lugs, right angle bends on the lugs, the metal on top of the coil, did it have an embedded brass washer to reduce magnetizing the bracket, etc.

I've never seen a document that decodes the bobbin prefix.

fwiw, any of the above coils would likely work in any game except an EA-29-950. On a game that the coil would stay powered as long as the button was pushed, you'd have an embedded toaster. Most games would be fine with an EA-29-950 because a switch on the locking cam opens when the search wipers are released and disconnects the coil almost immediately. That switch was not on County Fair or previous games, but it was on the next game Laguna Beach.

#15 42 days ago

ok, thanks for all the help... I was able to test the "search index lock magnet" jumping with the 30 wire and the coil works, even under load with a winning card. I will continue with the other suggestions. It may be a day or so when I get back to it, I dove head first into our bathroom total remodel so I'll squeeze the suggestions in as I can. I will report back

Thanks again
Steve

4 weeks later
#16 14 days ago

Ok, I'm back - The bathroom is done- Happy Wife!!!

Since absolutely nothing is labeled on this machine, I have started that to make my life easier and also help me get familiar with the machine. Anyways.. This is my thought of what I need to check... Since the "search index lock magnet" does not engage the the Front Rail "R" button is pressed, I was going to trace backwards from the point... thoughts on this, am I wasting my time and should be looking elsewhere?
Thanks
Steve

search_index_lock_magnet (resized).jpg
#17 12 days ago

Ok, Im tracing continuity, starting from the Search Index Lock Magnet.
The coil does in fact work if I jumper it from the transformer lug as suggested by baldtwit.

I have continuity from….
-Working backwards from the Search Index Lock Magnet (52-9) to the Front Rail Collect Score Button
-Otherside Front Rail Collect Score Button (53-18) to the Search Index Lock Magnet (52-9)
-Before 4th Selector Lock Trip (53-18) to Front Rail Collect Score Button (53-18) to Search Index Lock Magnet (52-9)
-Before 5th selector Lock Trip (93-3) to Before 4th Selector Lock Trip (53-18) to Front Rail Collect Score Button to Search Index Lock Magnet

I would like to check/look at the Search Wiper Cam SW #20A but in the manual it says its not shown so Im not sure exactly where to find that.

So, as for now, all I have proven is that I have continuity but not getting juice to the Front Rail Collect Score Button.

Any thoughts are appreciated

Thanks
Steve

#18 12 days ago

Wiper 20A sits on top of the cam on the search disc. The cam lifts a small stack of switches (A and B) which are closed when the wipers are at index. The switch should have no bearing on your issue.

Continuity may not be enough, you can get positive continuity but a drop in voltage will cause a problem, so you'll need to run the voltmeter and see if there's a drop somewhere. The tilt relay L1 needs to be closed as well.

The switch under the "R" button can get really crudded up from dirt and grime through the years and may be acting as a resistor, that's very common. I would look there first.

#19 12 days ago

ya got the right idea, but you shoulda turned left at albuquerque.

for a 50V coil to power, one side needs to be connected to wire 70 and the other side to wire 30. Almost all the 50V coils have wire 70 directly on a coil lug, so that makes life easier.

wire 21-3 is connected to wire 30 when the tilt trip relay isn't tripped. The circuit for the search wiper lock coil is left on wire 93-3 from the before 4th trip relay switch, thru the tilt trip switch and shutter cam switch.

you can use a voltmeter as okorange says .. one probe on wire 70, the other along that path - ideally with the R button pushed down so the circuit is closed - and look for where the 50V drops. If the circuit isn't closed, the meter will find an open connection but not a cruddy one.

you can also jumper wire 30 to points along that path and see when the R button works. Lifting the playfield is annoying, so I'd access wire 40-8 on the back of a plug or the selection feature unit disc.

#20 11 days ago

okorange and @bladtwit thanks for the info. I will go thru those suggestions. @bladtwit, I guess I should have used the em-bingo-gps, lol

I'll report back

thanks again

#21 11 days ago

Here's what I did and the results....

I first started with jumpering directly to the coil from certain points to see if the coil would energize...
21-3 from the plug - energized the coil
40-8 after the shutter closed - energized the coil
93-3 from the tilt relay (n.c.) - energized the coil
53-18 from Before the 4th selector lock - energized the coil

I may need to get a better voltmeter (Im using a harbor freight cheapie)
40-8 was reading 45 to 55
93-3 was reading 40 to 42
53-18 was reading 35 to 45

had a hard time getting anything after the R switch.

I cleaned the R switch again, several times, I also lightly the other switch locations as I went thru the different locations on that path.

I think I may try rebuilding the R switch again (paying closer attention and better pics).

Any thoughts and or comments and or yelling would be appreciated

Thanks
Steve

#22 10 days ago

the freebie HF meter is fine. It's normal with any meter to need to dig the probes tips into the metal/solder a little to get thru surface oxidation. Sharper probes make that a bit easier.

guess I described the jumper technique badly. You want one end of the jumper on wire 21-3 or wire 30. 30 on the transformer is the best place, but if most of the game works then wire 21-3 is also good enough,

use the other end of the jumper on the wires you mentioned ... 40-8, 93-3, etc. and push the R button to see when it works and when it doesn't.

also, if you stuck the rail onto the game and adjusted the R-button switch to just close when the R button was all the way down, it may not work when the glass is installed because the glass will raise the rail up a little. Take out the rail and use a screwdriver to push down the switches thru the button shaft hole to make sure you get them closed.

#23 9 days ago

I think Im onto something by using jumpers (in green).
I jumped from tilt relay 93-3 to Front rail switch 53-18. I press the button R button and the Search Index lock magnet engages and records the win.

I jumped from the Before 4th Selector Lock 93-3 to Front rail switch 53-18. I press the button R button and the Search Index lock magnet engages and records the win.

I jumped from the Before 4th Selector Lock 53-18 to Front rail switch 53-18. I press the button R button and the Search Index lock magnet engages and records the win.

So I think this is telling me I do have juice on that path… but when I do not have any jumps the Search Index Lock magnet does not engage, So now Im thinking a “possible” broken wire 53-18 or bad solder joint at the Front Rail R button switch.

I will reflow the solder tomorrow and proceed to locate a break in 53-18 is that does not resolve the issue.

R-Button-Path_with_jumpers (resized).jpg
#24 8 days ago

Have you cleaned the Jones plugs connecting the head to the cab? It's possible that's where your problem is. See the last page of the manual, 53-18 is the 10th connection down on the left side of the 24 plug. These can get corroded at times and cause issues. I'd do that quickly before getting into reflowing solder, etc.

#25 8 days ago

Thanks, yes I did clean that and test before I started the jumpering. We'll get it, atleast I believe I got it narrowed down to a specific area. I will report back. Thanks again.

#26 7 days ago

Success! - Thank you guys for your help with info and direction.

While tracing the wires down to the "R" button and labeling them as I go so I knew what I was looking at (other than old faded wires) at the "R" button I was able to determine that I had 2 switch blades swapped so the path to the search index lock magnet never got juice. So once I corrected the switch stack, I can collect winnings when pressing the front rail button. Woo Hoo.. I'll now continue with testing various winning combinations and more clean up.

Thank you again!
Steve

#27 4 days ago

couldn't tell the wire colors, or when you moved blades in post #9 you didn't reattach the wires so they stayed in the same blade positions?

#28 4 days ago

I would say both, I could not tell the colors and THOUGHT they were in the same positions. BAD pics for sure. A few lessons learned for sure.

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