Hmm, if you watch the ball count stepper does it step all the way down to 1 and then up twice at reset directly or does it never traverse back all the way to 1 on reset?

Hi daveashsr
ipdb.org has a schema -> I looked at -> schema-F16 is the "Ball Count Unit Reset Solenoid" - when the "Reset at start of a game" is done: This works, fine.

The "Ball Count Unit Step Up Solenoid" is schema-F-19 - many switches / units involved.
My "wild" guess: The "BALL-INDEX-RELAY" / the "Normally-Open Switch on Ball-Index-Relay" Attention: IN THE SCHEMA: At start of a game - after "Reset": The Ball-Index-Relay DOES NOT PULL , therefore that switch IS OPEN.

daveashsr, my questions: In YOUR pin (after start / at start): Is the "Ball-Index-Relay" pulling ? Is that "Switch on Ball-Index-Relay" "faulty-always" closed ? Greetings Rolf

Hi daveashsr
Theory: At the "Start of a game" and "Start of a new Ball" this Ball-Index-Relay is not pulling (shall not be pulling). As soon as the ball makes some points on the playfield: The brain of the pin says "GREAT, the given ball NOW-REALLY is in play -> Ball-Index-Relay starts pulling and keeps-on pulling -> later on the player looses the ball -> ball rolls into the Outhole -> the brain of the pin says: "As the given ball REALLY was played (BALL-INDEX-RELAY is still pulling) - me (the brain) I am entitled to step up to next player / next ball.

And when Your Ball-Index-Relay is "faulty-pulling" after reset - the brain thinks "I must step up to next player / ball ...

Schema-F25 - the Ball-Index-Relay. Nearby You see switches on "10 Point Relay" / "100 Point Relay" / "1000 Point Relay". (A Switch on Tilt-Relay) A Switch on Outhole-Relay (Make-and-Brake-Switch) AND THE SO CALLED "Self Hold (Circuitry) Switch on Ball-Index-Relay".
If one of these switches is wrong: "Your problem".

Check the "Self-Hold-Normally-Open-Switch on Ball-Index-RELAY". When the machine is switched-off (110 Volt): Ball-Index-Relay is not pulling, this switch must be open.
This switch is easy to find: From one side of the COIL of the Ball-Index-Relay there runs a wire to a switch mounted on the Ball-Index-Relay: THIS SWITCH is the "Self-Hold-Switch on Ball-Index-RELAY" Please check it and report.

In Switzerland it is now close to midnight - I go to sleep -> we will have another look - tomorrow. Greetings Rolf

Hi David
More / detailled theory: Operators (at the time) did like friendly players, they did not like players beating the pins. I write about "the brain (of the pin)".
The players and the "brain" have different definitions of "Ball-1 is in play" (also Ball-2, -3 ...).

The player starts a game -> Reset is done -> "brain" lets (through Outhole-Relay, Score-Motor, Switches) the "Outhole-Kicker (Coil)" fire -> Ball is transported over to the "Launching Lane".

The player says: "Great, I have my Ball-1 in play". The brain says "The manufacturer has constructed me to kick everything ( - for example a ball) OUT of the Outhole. There is not a ball in play.

The player launches the given (PREPAREAD) ball - it enters the playfield, the player says "NOW, I am sure, NOW my ball-1 IS in play. The brain says: "I did not get a signal "Ball is in play" - for me still there is no ball in play.

The ball hits a target or a bumper -> 1 / 10 / 100 / 1000 Point(s) are given to player-1 - the relay (1-Point-Relay, 10 ...) let the Score-Reel step (up). AND this relay ALSO closes a switch (mounted on the relay-stack on the relay) -> current flows to the "Coil of Ball-Index-Relay" -> the Ball-Index-Relay starts pulling and closes its "Self-Hold-(Circuitry)-Switch" -> the Ball-Index-Relay keeps-on pulling forever. The brain says: "Great, the Ball-Index-Relay is pulling --- NOW (!!!) BALL-1 IS IN PLAY".

The player plays and finally looses the ball -> the "brain" says: I am entitled to count up to the NEXT player / ball (as the Ball-Index-Relay is (now) pulling) and I kick everything from the outhole over to the "launching Lane" - I PREPARE A BALL TO PLAY. And so on ...

The operators said: If a player beats the pin (at any time): This shall be treated by the "brain" as if THE BALL HAS BEEN PLAYED (if the player has made some points or no points: IRRELEVANT). -> Producing a "Tilt" LET THE BALL-INDEX-RELAY PULL AND STAY PULLED.

Lets look in the schema F-25, G-25, H-25, J-25 - Can You see: The Ball-Index-Relay starts pulling if
- a switch on "10-Point-Relay" closes (SW-10)
- a switch on "100-Point-Relay" closes (SW-100)
- a switch on "1000-Point-Relay" closes (SW-1000)
- a switch on "Tilt-Relay" closes (SW-T)

Can You see: Because the "Ball-Index-Relay" starts pulling -> by the movement of the anchor-plate it closes its "Self-Hold-Switch" (SW-BI-SH) -> the Ball-Index-Relay keeps-on pulling forever.
Can You see: Because the "Tilt-Relay" starts pulling -> by the movement ... closes its "Self-Hold-Switch (SW-T-SH) -> the Tilt-Relay keeps-on pulling forever.

To Your problem: One of the relays can be faulty-pulling - or "The relay does not pull, BUT the Switch on it is FAULTY-CLOSED".

Check (faulty-pulling ?) 10-Point-Relay / 100-Point-Relay / 1000-Point-Relay / Tilt-Relay (((Ball-Index-Relay))).
Check (faulty-closed ?) SW-10 / SW-100 / SW-1000 / SW-T AND: SW-T-SH / SW-BI-SH.

Schema C-18 / D-18: the "Normally-Open" "Switch on Ball-Index-Relay": If this switch is closed (Ball-Index-Relay is faulty-pulling --- or this switch is faulty-(always)-closed -> "Your problem" (do not forget to check that switch). Greetings Rolf

P.S. - Near that switch (C-18 / D-18): You see a "Normally-Closed switch on EXTRABALL-RELAY" - well: If you gain a "Extra-Ball" -> the "brain" is not allowed to step up to the "next player / next ball".

¨Hi David
I would not pull it apart - I suggest: "Try to find the error" - not wanting to play "right-away / immediately afterwards".
The problem is: "SOMEWHERE" does current flow (where it shouldnt). To trace this down: Put a stripe of paper into the switches - between the contact-points of the two blades. You make a INSULATION - NO current can flow through this switch.

Pull the Line-Cord (120 VAC). Put a stripe of paper in EVERY switch on 10-Point-Relay / 100-Point-Relay / 1000-Point-Relay / Tilt-Relay / Ball-Index-Relay. A stripe of paper into EVERY switch (mounted at these mentioned relays).
Plug-in the Line-Cord, turn-on the pin, start a game : What happens ?
You might (attention 50 VAC inside the pin - near the transformer / at fuses: 120 VAC) only grab ONE stripe of paper (touching ONLY the paper) and carefully/ slowly pull it out - one stripe of paper after the other.
You pull out "Paper-Y" and the Ball-Index-Relay start to pull: THIS is the "faulty-closed" Switch. Please report. Greetings Rolf

Hi David
the last couple of days we had temperatures up to (close to ) "regular blood temperature of man" - 36 Degree Celsius -extremely hot (for Switzerland - VERY seldom). Celsius is simple: Zero degree Celsius is icecold water / melting ice. 100 degree Celsius is boiling water. And "in between is linear ...

When You sneak-in the "stripes of paper": Have a closer look at the switches (a blade is bent (at the Solder-Lug) ? A splash of solder has fallen onto there ?
Example -> http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm -> 2a. Before Turning the Game On -> http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#fuses -> third picture (bent).

Example: -> http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#misc -> first picture (solder splash)
Greetings Rolf

P.S. Yesterday evening and today we had Thunderstorms and rain and it cooled down niceley to about 20 degrees Celsius (right now). 20 degrees Celsius is recommended for "normal" room temperature (in buildings) in wintertime.

Hi David
great, You found it. A couple of things to know about EM pins and schematics:

Bally and Williams are very similar - Gottlieb is different, "Score-Motor" and especially: The way "Balls" and "Players" are handled - (Gtb: ) "Player-Unit <-> (Bally, Wms: ) Ball-Count-Unit and Player-Unit.

Pinball machines and schemas are "Man made" - a (specific) switch is IN THE PIN "Normally-Closed" - by mistake it is drawn (in the schema) as "Normally-Open". I once read ( do not remember where): "Carefully checked schema and "reality in the pin", result: Two switches drawn in the schema were NOT in the pin - one switch in the pin was NOT drawn in the schema.

Schemas are not an "exploded (explosion) view" - they show a momentary state (snapshot). Some schemas (only) have the note "Interlock-Relays are drawn in latched position". Some have a better description (I assume: ALL EM-pins (schemas) are drawn) -
"The schema shows: A game has been startet for one player, the machine made the "Reset", the first ball is transported (Outhole -> to the "Launching Lane" (ready to get playing) - AND NOW - after all this: The Line-Cord (110 VAC) is PULLED / unpugged !!! (and therefore Interlock-Relays are in latched position).

A schema does not show the reality of "wiring in the pin" - a schema is an "abstract". In a schema You often see a "connecting point (5 wires end here)" - in reality there is a wire A <-> B, a wire B <-> C, a wire B <-> D and a blank (no insulation) stump C <-> E.
Relays (coils) (K, L, M, N) drawn side by side (from left to right) in the schema: Reality: N and L are in the Backbox, M is in the Cabinet, K is at "Underneath-side of playfield".
Jones-Plugs for (example) connecting playfield and Mech.-Panel (in the cabinet) are usually NOT drawn in the schema.

Succession / sequence / chronology: YOU must think it into the schema !!! An example "10 points are given ("B1-B6")", "Reset of a Score-Reel ("A1-A8")" -> https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/scoring-issue-on-bally-sea-ray -> post-4, PDF-A-B. ((PDF-C-K is in search for a "STUCK 100 Point-Relay))

When reading a schema I often see switches "I do not really understand what they are (good) for ...". I keep in mind: The previous game might have ended nicely (played until Game-Over) - OR A PLAYER HAS BEATEN THE MACHINE AND PRODUCED A SEVERE TILT, for example look here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2539&picno=10658 -> Player-2 (of 4), Ball-2, Ball sits in one of these Eject-Holes -> BANG, severe Tilt. Or an Service-Man has taken-out the ball, lifted the playfield and want to start a game ...
"Switches I do not really understand ..." often have to do with "strange circumstances of End-of-previous-game".
When I see a switch "drawn Normally-Closed in the schema" - but I would like to have it "drawn Normally-Opened" -> I locate the Relay and the (attached) switch in the pin -> manually activate the relay and look: Does the switch wants to open ? - or: Does it want to close ...
For "to work on a pin" I really like Williams, example Fan-Tas-Tic: http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=820 (example: ) I have problems with a switch on "Outhole-Relay" -> http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/820/Williams_1972_Fan_Tas_Tic_Operator_Manual.pdf -> page-21 -> where is the switch ? / how many switches ? what are they doing ? where in the schema is a specific switch to be found ? how is the relay energized ?
I Like "Williams of the 70ies", Gottliebs (at least) have in the list of relays (in the schema) notes like: 4A, 2B, 1C -> this relay has 4 "Normally-Open" switches, 2 "Normally-Closed" Switches, 1 "Make-and-Brake" Switch.
Gtb / Bally: I often have to look all over the schema to find the switches a specific relay does move ...
I also like "Wms-drawing (schema) - the Score-Motor": the "Notches / Cams", the "Timing", "Switches involved" - "what are they for".

Looking for a fault:
-------------------------
here we had "using stripes of paper to insulate connecting points in a given switch" (current flows where there should no current flow).

Often the problem is "the other way": "current should flow, why doesn't it ?" For this question I like to use "Jumper-Cables with Gator-Clips". A SCHEMA IS NEEDED !!!
Look: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/using-schematics-and-8-foot-jumper-wires -> post-6, post-7, (post-10). I do not like "Continuity-Tester" - in an EM-Pin: there are so many connections - You may get results measuring "all the way around through the wiring of the transformer". Sometimes I use my "green flashlight" but mostly I study the schema and the pin / use paper-stripes for insulating and Jumper-Cables to make connections.

David, please mark the topic as "solved". Greetings Rolf

P.S.: Great: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm / http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair