Bally Bow and Arrow Startup Issues

Hello Everyone,

I have a nice Bow and Arrow EM. I'm a total n00b, so please bear with me!

I bought this machine, playfield was nice and clean, inside cabinet was pretty clean too, backbox is dusty, missing backglass and metal back door.

So, It won't play when I took it home. It turns on, fuses are all the right amperage and nothing blows. Lights come on, great.

I cleaned and fixed the credit reel to a point (it decrements too much (2-3 credits) and fails to increment on coin, but that's no big deal right now), I can turn the reel and the credit light is on (I learned free play mode too). I think new springs/re-tension will fix the up/down mechanics.

I cleaned the bonus wheel, ball in play wheel, match 00-90 wheel, player up wheel, the increment and decrement/reset all seem to work well now.

I did not clean the score motor, I'm pretty scared of messing that thing up! I did gently wipe some of the contacts on it with a very thin file (I was careful not to grind the contacts at all)

I also cleaned a few relay contacts, notably, the interlock and game over.

Now, I can start the machine with a coin and the start button! The score motor turns, and some of the score reels reset, but not player 1 or 3.Player 2 and 4 seem to reset OK (though Player 4 10,000 does not)

I decided to start cleaning and lubricating some of the score reels, but I just can't get them to reset. Pressing on the reset relay does nothing. I have yet to check voltage, but the wires are solidly soldered on, I did clean the relay contacts.

If I manually set the scores to zero, the game still will not kick out the ball, the score motor goes forever.

I was able to actually play the game at one point, but I don't know what I reset or touched!

Any advice? I have the schematic, and manual, but the schematic does not "read" like a traditional electronic schematic that I used to be able to read.

I'm thinking the score reels are a bit messed up. I can increment them OK though they all need clean/lube but for the most part, that works. The carry-over does not work or is intermittent, that bothers me. The contacts are all spaced appropriately and cleaned, however...

Thank Everyone! BTW, I have a beat-up Zip-A-Doo as well

Tim

#2 7 years ago

TNT

sneakerpin

Pinside member

UPDATE:

I cleaned and lubed Player 1 score reels. I cleaned the relay contacts and had to adjust the relay contact arms a little, now the score resets on Player 1 (all other players are on 0 0 0 0 0) and I can start the game! (most of the time!)

Looks like the ball in play wheel is acting funky, so I'm going to redo that. Looks like I'm really getting the hang of cleaning and lubing the reels/wheels. I guess you fail a couple of times and learn better ways to do it!

I'm hoping to get a 1 player game working soon. Then the rest of the score reels get done.

#3 7 years ago

TNT

sneakerpin

Pinside member

UPDATE:

Now I'm stuck

I rebuilt the ball in play wheel and now the game does not function (start up sequence does not fire).

I had to re-align the white plastic gear because I didn't hold it in place while replacing the spider...

Anyway, now things aren't working like they should. The ball in play lights correspond to the wheel, and teh wheel resets and steps exactly as it should, but something is still wrong.

I tested the switch contacts on the wheel, and I'm getting continuity when I don't expect it (i.e. switch contacts are open, but 0 ohms between them)

Any Tips??

Thanks,

Tim

#4 7 years ago

TNT

sneakerpin

Pinside member

UPDATE:

So, I have two distinct issues.

1. On new game, ball in play reset solenoid does not actuate, Manually pressing solenoid resets ball in play to 1, but it's too late to start a game. Must manually reset ball to 1 and use new credit.

2. When Ball in play is set to 1 and new game started, score reels all reset to zero, bonus is 1,000, ball gets kicked out to plunger and playfield plays (mostly, WIP) as expected. Only issue is ball in play starts at "2"

After ball 5, Game over lights up as expected.

My questions are:

1. How do I get ball in play to automatically reset? When is it supposed to actuate to reset, on new game?
2. Do the leaf switches determine ball "0" and increment spider to ball "1"?

I think the leaf switch bank is not working as it should. I have the schematic, but I have no idea what the switch positions are defaulted to.

Thanks Everyone,

Tim

#5 7 years ago

TIM

TimMe

Can you post a couple of pictures of the ball count unit that you rebuilt? It would be good to see a pic of the gear side (the gear is the white wheel with the teeth) and a pic of the rivet/wiper side.

I'm guessing (for the moment) that the ball count unit is not put back together quite right. That could be the cause of both of the issues you are having.

- TimMe

#6 7 years ago

TIM

TimMe

In regard to your questions:

1. The ball count reset solenoid fires at reset via a coin relay switch, a score motor switch, and a reset relay switch. Note that the coin unit reset solenoid and player-up unit reset solenoid are also fired by this same circuit. If they are resetting and the ball count unit is not, then there is a problem specific to the ball count unit or the wiring going to the ball count reset solenoid.

2. The ball count unit, after being reset, should be sitting on ball 1.

On this game there is a ball index relay. At the beginning of each ball in play, the ball index relay is released. The ball index relay pulls in and locks on when any score is made. When the ball goes into the outhole, the game will only advance to the next ball (or next player) if the ball index relay is on. The idea here is that each ball won't be counted until it's been out on the playfield and has scored some points.

If your game is advancing from ball 1 to ball 2 on the initial ball delivery, that is usually caused by a ball index relay that is pulling in too early. And that is almost always due to a stuck playfield switch scoring points when there is no ball on the playfield.

- TimMe

#7 7 years ago

TNT

sneakerpin

Pinside member

Hi Tim,

Here is the ball count unit photo.

Notice the switches on the bottom and bottom left.

For some reason, the bottom left switch ALWAYS shows continuity. (this momentarily closes on ball advance) The bottom right group of switches, the left-most switch seems to always have continuity as well, even when not pressed together...

I don't know why, when I reset the counter, the machine kicks the spider up to ball 2 on new game, I rebuilt the wheel exactly as it was before (I marked the spider and corresponding brass contact before removal).

Also, I will check the playfield, good idea! I think there is a kick-out hole that gets stuck.

Thanks,

Tim

20160712_152640_(resized).jpg

#8 7 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi Tim and Tim
I agree on "a faulty closed switch on the playfield does make a point-relay pull (1 or 10 or 100 or 1000 or 10000 points) --- and this does make the Ball-Index-Relay "pull-in too early" ".
I believe: The Topic-Starter would write "One of my Score-Drums pulls-in - keeps-on pulling, does hum - it sticks - when I toggle-off the pin: a point is given (1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000).

sneakerpin, You do NOT write about "having Score-Drum-problems". Please toggle-off the pin and look at the Ball-Index-Relay - it is not pulling.
Toggle-on the main power switch (pulling ?) - push left flipper-button (pulling ?) start a game (pulling ?) - reset will be done (pulling ?) - ball will be delivered to Shooter Alley (pulling ?).

IF (if) The ball is delivered to the Shooter Alley and the Ball-Index-Relay does NOT pull:
The ipdb-schema shows a C-17 a "Switch on Ball-Index-Relay with wire-27-1-blue-orange and wire-90-3-gray soldered-on". Look at this "Switch on Ball-Index-Relay" - is it faulty closed ? contact-points on the long side of the blades having contact ? Has a drop of solder fallen "on the side of the blades where the wires are soldered-on" and this drop of solder makes "faulty-contact" ? Is THERE a blade bent making "faulty-contact" ?

IF (if) The ball is delivered to the Shooter Alley and the Ball-Index-Relay DOES pull - but none of the Score-Drums is endlessly pulling: The ipdb-schema shows a G-7 a "Switch on Ball-Index-Relay with wire-56-white-brown and wire-81-7-black-red soldered-on". It is usually the bottom-most-Switch on the relay - a short wire runs from "one side of the coil on the relay" to the switch.
Same questions on this switch as the questions above.

IF (if) The ball is delivered to the Shooter Alley and the Ball-Index-Relay DOES steady pull - and one of the Score-Drums IS endlessly pulling: Look for a faulty-closed playfield-switch. Greetings Rolf

#9 7 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi Tim and Tim
"i can create" one more possibility of fault: IF (if) The ball is delivered to the Shooter Alley and the Ball-Index-Relay DOES pull - but none of the Score-Drums is endlessly pulling: The ipdb-schema shows at G-7 and H-7 "Switches on 10-point- / 100-point- / 1000-point-relay with wire-30-yellow and wire-56-1-white-brown soldered-on" (same color on all relays / switches). Look on every mentioned relay for such a switch - same questions on these switches as the questions in post-8. Greetings Rolf

#10 7 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi Tim and Tim
blame on me - post-9 - I should have had a second look at schema-G-7 and H-7: There is also a "Switch on TILT-Relay" that can be faulty - having soldered-on wire-56-1-white-brown and wire-81-7-black-red. Greetings Rolf

#11 7 years ago

TIM

TimMe

The ball count unit looks OK.

You didn't say if the coin unit reset solenoid and player-up unit reset solenoid are pulling in when you start a new game. Are they?

You need to be careful about checking EM switches in-circuit with an ohm-meter. There are a couple of reasons that open switches can show continuity. One is that there is another switch in parallel with the one under test somewhere else in the game, and that other switch is closed. Another is that your meter is measuring the resistance of the secondary winding of the transformer (and all the connected loads across it), in series with the coil(s) in the circuit being controlled by the switch. This can amount to a very low reading across the open switch, 10 ohms or less. So the best way to measure coils and switches on an EM is to un-solder one wire from the item under test, and check the resistance in isolation.

A different method of troubleshooting that usually works better for EMs is to use voltage instead of resistance, because you don't have to unsolder anything. However, you want to be a little careful working on Bally games with the power on, because the coil supply is 50 volts AC and you can get an unpleasant shock from that.

So, for example, if you wanted to check to see if your ball count reset solenoid coil was any good, you could do it either of these two ways:

1. Turn the power to the game off. Un-solder one wire from the ball count reset solenoid. Measure the resistance across the solenoid coil lugs. For Bally coils, I would be looking for around 10 ohms or so as a general ballpark.

2. Turn the power to the game on. Run a direct jumper wire from the 50 VAC fuse holder to the non-black wire of the ball count reset solenoid. The coil should become energized and the solenoid plunger should pull in.

- TimMe

#12 7 years ago

TNT

sneakerpin

Pinside member

Dear Rolf and Tim,

Thank you for the many notes! I will begin troubleshooting session soon tonight!

I have enough information. I will post an update.

Regards,

Tim

#13 7 years ago

TNT

sneakerpin

Pinside member

UPDATE:

OK, fixed a couple things, noticed a couple things...

FIXED:

1. 10-point scoring was not working at all. Culprit was a couple of the bumper leaf switches were always closed. I adjusted them, now the 10-point relay doesn't constantly stay energized

2. #1 above seems to have fixed ball-in-play starting at 2, as you suggested! Now I start at ball 1!

NOT FIXED:

1. Ball count still fails to reset to '1' after game over/credit insert/game start. If I manually reset it, the game starts fine.

Per your suggestions, I'll start looking into the score drum and other relays. I really need to understand the schematic better.

I did measure a voltage spike to the ball in play reset coil, but it was less than 1VAC I'll write better notes on that tomorrow. Maybe the coil is bad, or it's a DC coil. It's late here tonight so I'll look into that possibility tomorrow.

My startup sequence is:

(with ball counter reset to 1): Credit, Start Game, Score(s) reset to zero, ball kicks out, game plays through 5 balls and ends.
(with ball counter 2-5): Same as above, game ends after ball 5.
(with ball counter at '6'): Credit, Start Game, Score(s) reset to zero, NO ball kick out, game doesn't work.

OTHER NOTICEABLE THINGS:

1. Coin door has a coil that buzzes very loudly. Minor annoyance.
2. I think the SPECIAL knocker is toast, it doesn't fire, but it makes a bad electrical buzzing noise until some scoring comes along, maybe it's a chime solenoid... I will get to that after I solve the startup sequence.
3. The 500 point scoring does not always fire, or only scores 100 or 200 points. I think this has to do with the score wheel, and also the hold timing of the roll-over switch (If I hold the roll over down for 1 second, I usually get 500 points...). Probably clean all the score wheel contacts soon. Also will re-clean all playfield leaf switches soon.

Thanks Everyone! This is fun

Tim

#14 7 years ago

TIM

TimMe

Glad you are making progress!

With regard to the ball count reset issue, you still have not said if the coin unit reset solenoid and player-up unit reset solenoid are pulling in when you start a new game. Are they? I keep asking because the answer to this question will help you figure out what is wrong with the ball count reset.

- TimMe

#15 7 years ago

TNT

sneakerpin

Pinside member

Hi Tim,

NO! The coils do NOT pull.

I never noticed this behavior. (shrug) I did clean these nice though a week ago, and the step/reset manually works great, these are aligned properly as well.

I'm going to read the schematic today and try to understand the flow of it. Maybe there is a youtube video tutorial.

Anyway, if you or anyone out there can help with the solenoids not pulling. Rolf, I'll look at the sections of the schema you identified first.

Thanks!!!!

Tim

#16 7 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi Tim-sneakerpin
NO - do not look at the places in the schema I mentioned in post-8, 9, 10 !
TimMe takes You through the schema - what I wrote*** in the mentioned posts IS OBSOLETE - a faulty-always-closed Bumper-Switch was the cause of "Ball-Index-Relay (faulty) pulls-in (faulty: too early)" - and You have fixed that.

What I wrote***: I thought "sneakerpin would have mentioned a "pulling-endlessly Score-Drum" --- he did NOT mention". So I jumped-in and showed OTHER ways a Ball-Index-Relay can pull-in too early. And my mentioned places in the schema (post-8, 9, 10) have to do with "Ball-Index-Relay pulling-in too early". My assumption / thinking WAS WRONG.
Follow TimMe's instructions. Greetings Rolf

#17 7 years ago

TIM

TimMe

Since none of the coils are firing, you'll want to check all of the switches in the circuit path that generates the pulse for those coils.

Look at the area intersected by C and 15 on the schematic and you will see there are three switches that provide the pulse. One is a normally-open switch on the coin relay, one is a normally-open switch on score motor cam #3, and one is a make-break switch on the reset relay.

Clean and gap all of these switches, and confirm they are making good contact. Also, check for a broken wire at the solder lugs for these switches.

And, it's always a good idea to tighten down the screws of a switch stack before you clean the switch contacts or adjust the blades.

- TimMe

#18 7 years ago

TNT

sneakerpin

Pinside member

Hi Guys,

I took a needed break. I'll be back into the cabinet today. I'm going after cleaning relay contacts and adjusting leaf switches.

Thanks,

Tim

#19 7 years ago

TNT

sneakerpin

Pinside member

OK, I removed the playfield. Cleaned everything I could. I vacuumed out the entire cabinet, oiled the flash motor, cleaned and lubed the flash motor disc... (other discs are lubed and cleaned from before)

Overall, I did a nice job inside the cabinet. I checked all the relays for contact (visually) and adjusted any leaf that looked out of place.

Checked 4 player mode, works nicely.

Still exhibits the 'ball count not resetting' problem on new game.

I checked for voltage going to the ball count reset solenoid, and I never see a pulse of DC voltage on the coil when I:

Insert coin
Start a new game
Finish a game (game over)

My schematic question is: "do you rotate the schematic and read it top-down, as opposed to (left to right) sideways?"

Maybe I'm trying to read the schematic wrong. I actually programmed PLC's in the past, and the ladder logic works "top-down"...

Thanks, oh, and off to get another EM today :p

Tim

#20 7 years ago

TIM

TimMe

EM schematics are in their own world, and each manufacturer arranges them in their own way. And to make it even more confusing, sometimes the same manufacturer will re-arrange sections of the schematic from game to game.

On Bow and Arrow, the power supply (transformer outputs) are at the lower left and the power rails are the thick black lines that run horizontally across the page. Look at the bottom three thick lines for a moment (I describe the top thick line below). Of these three thick lines, the middle thick line is the common supply line for both the lamps and coils. The top thick line is the 50 VAC return line for the coils. The bottom thick line the 6 VAC return line for the lamps.

When you are tracing a coil circuit, you start at the center thick line and follow upward through one or more switches to the coil in question.

When you are tracing a lamp circuit, you start at the center thick line and follow downward through one or more switches to the lamp in question.

You may ask, why is the common line considered the power source and not the ground? That's just a convention and it's because of the way that Bally wired their games. If you look you will see that one side of nearly all the coils are directly tied to the 50 VAC line, and one side of nearly all the lamps are tied directly to the 6 VAC line. By definition, that makes those lines the return lines for those voltage sections and not the source. Since those lines are not the source, the center common line must be the source. Remember, we're talking AC here so there isn't any positive or negative.

Now for the very top thick line. If you look all the way over to the right of the schematic, you will see that is just the common (power source) line wrapped around and brought back along the top of the page.

So for the very top section of coils, you read from the top thick line and follow downward through one or more switches to the coil in question. Most of the top section coils are only active while the game is being played, so there is a game-over relay switch that connects their common return line to the direct 50 VAC return line.

As for your persistent reset problem:

1. Checking for voltage pulses on an EM is very tricky. The electrical pulse is very short. Unless you are using a storage scope or peak voltage storage meter to check for pulses on an EM game, this is probably not a good way to troubleshoot. It's much better to apply a known good voltage source to each section of the circuit, working backwards from the coil, to find the section of the circuit with the fault. Please read my #11 post again for more info.

2. Did you check the items I mentioned in post #17?

- TimMe

#21 7 years ago

TNT

sneakerpin

Pinside member

Hi Tim,

Yes, I checked those switches.

I do have a storage function on my DMM, but I was using DC, not AC, so I'll re check.

I just picked up a working Bally Amigo. I think I'll be able to duplicate the correct behavior for the coil with this table, then check again over at Bow and Arrow.

I'll be back in a couple days and update you!

Thanks,

Tim

#22 7 years ago

TNT

sneakerpin

Pinside member

Hi Tim,

OK, I've got this schematic, I commented out a section.

As I read the logic, I need:

Coin Relay CLOSED
3B on Score Motor cam CLOSED
Reset Relay CLOSED

THEN

Ball Count Unit Reset Solenoid will Momentarily CLOSE to reset unit.

Questions are,

1. All three relays/switches closed AT ONCE?
2. What are the numeric labels (i.e. 63-8) for?

Getting there. BTW, My Bally Amigo works like a charm... so sad compared to B&A

Thanks,

Tim

bly_BowArrow_Schematic_(resized).jpg

#23 7 years ago

TIM

TimMe

Yes, that is essentially correct. To answer your questions:

1. The coin relay and reset relay are both pulled in at the same time. The score motor 3B switch pulses closed as the motor turns and the lobe on cam 3 pushes up on the switch stack for cam 3 as it rotates past. That is the "momentary" part.

2. The numbers in the boxes are the wire color codes.

- TimMe

#24 7 years ago

TNT

sneakerpin

Pinside member

OK,

I got this.

I should now know where the coin and reset relays physically are located. (Another thread)

I'l measure the voltage of the transformer taps leading to the solenoid, then I'll jump that voltage over across the coil to see if it actuates. (II'l desolder it first).

If it works, I'll trace these relays and score motor cam...

almost there...

thanks,

Tim

#25 7 years ago

TNT

sneakerpin

Pinside member

I GOT IT!

So, I made my own schematic, the way I am used to reading PLC logic, (it's basically rotated 90 degrees) but thanks to both Tim and Rolf, this could have been MUCH harder to solve!

The final problem was with the Reset relay. It had one or two contacts misaligned, though I was certain I cleaned and adjusted them properly.

This time, I removed the relay assembly as much as I could from the cabinet, tightened the leaf switch stack screws, then re-aligned the contacts.

Now, the game starts up fine. I am even playing multiple players.

Still a lot to clean (most of the score reels need cleaning)...

But, oh, what a lot to love!!!!!

Now I have two of three machines working and will get them 100% soon.

I'll be sure to post a game room pic when the glass in back on these two machines.

Thanks, Pinsiders!

Tim

IMG_3875_(resized).JPG

#26 7 years ago

TIM

TimMe