(Topic ID: 300528)

Bally Bonus Unit not counting down

By northstar-

2 years ago


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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by northstar-
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    #1 2 years ago

    Working on a Bally 1965 Trio Bonus unit.
    The unit works fine on giving the advance bonus. (stepping up)
    but when the ball goes in the out hole the step down coil just keeps firing and the bonus does not count down.

    When unit is in the reset position the metal piece is not in the tooth of the gear.
    The confusing thing is when you manual push the step down plunger. (power off)
    the black metal engages into the nylon gear but does not come out of the tooth to let it step down,
    and the gear does not move to step down the bonus.

    The black piece that rides on the pin just has a small spring across it and is not hook up to anything else,
    this is the piece that engages with the gear to step it down

    I can't make out how this mechanism is suppose to work for the life of me!

    May this be a mechanical issue or a timing issue ??

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    #2 2 years ago

    The pivot point shaft that the clock spring connects to is gummed up and is not allowing the small spring to pull the black arm onto the gear.

    #3 2 years ago

    Nevermind. I thought I saw something amiss until I looked at a larger picture.

    #4 2 years ago
    Quoted from pinballdaveh:

    The pivot point shaft that the clock spring connects to is gummed up and is not allowing the small spring to pull the black arm onto the gear.

    Yep - I’d vote for that.

    #5 2 years ago

    That would be nice if it was that easy.
    The whole unit was taken apart and cleaned.
    The black metal I was talking about is called the reset pawl.

    On planetary pinball I look up 1968 Bally parts book and shows a picture of the unit.
    underneath there is a note talking about the unit.
    I give it a try and let you know the results.

    Any other thoughts are welcome working on the problem for some time. (many hrs) Thanks.

    https://online.fliphtml5.com/vrtyz/pblg/#p=88

    #6 2 years ago

    I believe that the spring I have circled is hooked in to the top of the black metal piece - the escapement pawl. This should be pulling on the pawl pivoting the other end against the main ratchet wheel. It currently looks like it’s not doing this. So either the spring is wrong and is not pulling or the pawl is too tight and not being allowed to pivot. Without being against the ratchet it won’t work properly. And if the spring isn’t meant to achieve this then what’s it doing there?

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    #7 2 years ago

    Looking again it looks to me like it’s the wrong spring fitted and not putting any tension on it.

    #8 2 years ago

    Also, can’t tell from the pics but is the small spring definitely hooked on the escapement pawl? It should be but can’t see properly.

    #9 2 years ago

    The spring is set on the reset pawl. The unit is in a zero position and the pawl resets away from the ratchet.
    when the plunger is activated the reset pawl goes against the wheel and does not come out to the next tooth to reset\
    the spring then puts tension on the ratchet wheel.
    Coil Plunger keeps going up and down but the ratchet remains still.

    Here is something I tried but did not help, might of did it wrong trying to follow.
    This Bally reset sucks.
    Picture of the game showing the Bonus Unit

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    #10 2 years ago

    looking at the ratchet side of the unit ...

    the step-up pawl's job is to push the ratchet one tooth clockwise.

    the reset pawl's job is to prevent the ratchet moving (much) in the counter-clockwise direction when the step-up plunger is pulling in.

    if the black escapement pawl is not there, when the reset plunger pulls into the coil, both the reset and step-up pawls are lifted off the ratchet teeth and the torsion spring on the ratchet causes the ratchet to whizz counter-clockwise back to the reset stop/zero position quickly.

    when you want the unit to step down instead of resetting completely, you toss on the escapement pawl. Its job is to grab a tooth when the reset plunger pulls in and acts like a second reset pawl.

    it's normal for the escapement pawl to be floating above the teeth until the reset plunger pulls in. It needs to let one tooth get past it when the plunger is pulling in or the ratchet won't decrement.

    between the escapement pawl and the reset pawl, the ratchet can only spin one tooth counter-clockwise instead of spinning all the way to the reset stop (google for "clock escapement")

    you won't see the behavior of the escapement pawl if you are pushing in the reset plunger when the unit is already reset. You need to step up the unit then push in/release the reset plunger to see how the escapement pawl works.

    if your problem is the unit is getting to zero/reset position but the reset plunger is still pulsing (bonus scoring didn't finish), check the switches the white peg on the ratchet is pushing. Usually one of them ends the bonus scoring.

    unfortunately, my trio schem is nearly as bad as the one on ipdb. If you have a good one and can take highest possible resolution pictures of it (overlap the pics ... too many is fine), please email them to [email protected] and I'll use them to fix what I have and get it onto ipdb.

    #11 2 years ago

    Thanks for the reply
    The unit does not reset all the way to the zero position IT gets stuck on the first tooth it hits no matter what position the bonus is at.
    The step up is working fine. It's the reset not counting down. see picture for the escapement pawl its on the unit.

    Could the adjustments in the back box for high scores be the trouble?
    They are the pins that never seem to give you the proper replays.

    #12 2 years ago
    Quoted from northstar-:

    The spring is set on the reset pawl. The unit is in a zero position and the pawl resets away from the ratchet.
    when the plunger is activated the reset pawl goes against the wheel and does not come out to the next tooth to reset\
    the spring then puts tension on the ratchet wheel.
    Coil Plunger keeps going up and down but the ratchet remains still.
    Here is something I tried but did not help, might of did it wrong trying to follow.
    This Bally reset sucks.
    Picture of the game showing the Bonus Unit
    [quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

    Beautiful

    #13 2 years ago
    Quoted from northstar-:

    Thanks for the reply

    Could the adjustments in the back box for high scores be the trouble?
    They are the pins that never seem to give you the proper replays.

    those would be a different problem.

    is your credit unit working? ... it's the same mechanism.

    the spring on the reset pawl should be pulling the reset plunger out of the coil and as the reset pawl rotates counter-clockwise it pushes the escapement pawl away from the ratchet to disengage the tooth.

    if the unit is stuck in the position shown in the post #9 pic, grab the reset pawl spring and pull it left to apply more force. If that works, then one of the following is the problem:

    1] wrong reset pawl spring. Swap with another one and see if that helps

    2] too much or not enough ratchet torsion spring force. When the unit is reset, the torsion spring should have 2 turns of tension on it +/- 1/4 turn.

    3] the end of the escapement pawl has a burr and is digging into the ratchet teeth. Make sure it's smooth so it can slide off the tooth easily.

    4] things are gummed up with dried lubricant (ratchet shaft, wipers, contact plate, pawl pivot points). This is the most common, but yours looks like it's been cleaned.

    5] the reset plunger is binding in the coil. Could be a mushroomed plunger end with a burr, a ridged/distorted sleeve, or an overheated coil has reduced the sleeve diameter.

    I not remembering if there is a little torsion spring on the post the escapement pawl is mounted that helps rotate the escapement pawl away from the ratchet. If there is, make sure it's not broken and is mounted correctly.

    2 weeks later
    #14 2 years ago

    Thought Id post the outcome of this unit not working.
    Thanks baldtwit for some possible causes of the problem unfortunately all of these you mention check out OK.

    The one thing I went back to was the credit unit that did work in game play but reacted the same when tried to reset manually.
    When you tried to reset the unit with the power off, meaning stepping down the reset plunger by hand it would not reset.
    When steeping up by hand with power off the unit worked fine giving credits, but did not work the other way stepping down.
    This was the same way the bonus stepper unit replay unit worked manually. (power off).

    Results: took stepper unit out for the sixth time and really had a good look at the mechanics of the unit.
    When you press down on the reset plunger the reset pawl the escapement pawl moves inward on the ratchet gear as suppose to.

    Then the reset plunger comes out of the ratchet tooth and then raises the step up arm out of the other ratchet tooth . but then since their is a little pressure from the ratchet spring so when the step up arm lever comes out of the ratchet tooth the ratchet moves back just enough so when the reset pawl wants to drop down and engage in another tooth of the ratchet the reset pawl hits the top point of the tooth and does not engage to push back the ratchet gear to reset.

    This is how the credit unit worked it would hit the top of the tooth then do nothing when you kept pushing down on the reset plunger to try to reset the credit wheel.
    So I put the cabinet board in the game again and the bonus stepper worked for reasons I still don't know how?
    This unit does not reset by manually by hand with the power off

    Picture of bonus unit buried in the back!

    If anyone knows different I Shure would like to know if this unit can work manually?? or how it suppose to work. Gottlieb and Williams sure got this unit beat!!!
    Thanks hope this helps someone.

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    #15 2 years ago
    Quoted from northstar-:

    ... the reset plunger comes out of the ratchet tooth and then raises the step up arm out of the other ratchet tooth . but then since their is a little pressure from the ratchet spring so when the step up arm lever comes out of the ratchet tooth the ratchet moves back just enough so when the reset pawl wants to drop down and engage in another tooth of the ratchet the reset pawl hits the top point of the tooth and does not engage to push back the ratchet gear to reset.

    something doesn't sound right.

    nothing pushes the ratchet in the reset/counter-clockwise direction. It is ONLY the tension of the torsion spring wound around the hub that spins the ratchet counter-clockwise.

    if you hold the reset plunger down all the way into the reset coil so the step-up and top reset pawls are lifted above the ratchet teeth, then push the extra pawl away from the ratchet, the ratchet and wipers should whizz back to the reset stop without dragging.

    the extra pawl just limits the counter-clockwise rotation to one tooth instead of the unit completely resetting.

    if your contact plate is cruddy, the ratchet shaft is sticky, there's too much wiper pressure on the contact plate, or the torsion spring doesn't have two turns of tension when the unit is reset, then the ratchet won't be able to rotate counter-clockwise easily enough.

    also keep in mind the coil will yank the plunger in harder than you can manually. If your issue is the pawls are slowing down the ratchet, push in the reset plunger more firmly. It should work reliably when operating it manually.

    #16 2 years ago

    The unit will reset all the way when the plunger is held in and the escapement pawl is held back.
    The thing is I want the unit to step down not reset.
    If you try to do step down the stepper unit it will not work . Step Down. tooth by tooth

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