(Topic ID: 312958)

Bally Black Pyramid Reset and random scoring

By robm

2 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 17 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Quench
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

BlackPyramid_SwitchMatrix.png
PXL_20220404_192603268 (resized).jpg
PXL_20220404_192511549 (resized).jpg
PXL_20220404_192549511 (resized).jpg
PXL_20220404_192503522 (resized).jpg
#1 2 years ago

Am trying to repair a Black Pyramid. The owner said it would reset, machine gun right slingshot and scoring would run up.

I have it at my place, adjusted leaf switch on sling and that seems to have sorted it out, however occaisionally scoring still runs up - it appears to be related to the pop bumpers and leaf switches either side of the pops, but i cant confirm that with testing i've done to date. In switch test, there are no stuck switches, and when i thump the playfield in switch test nothing actuates (however i think on these machines, switches in switch test need to be pressed for a second or so?).

The other issue is seemingly random resets, and adding of players. I would start a 1 player game, then part way through it would change to 4 player - i couldn't pick up when this happened - and the start button leaf switch is gapped properly, and doesn't get physically stuck. Also, on some games when it stayed in single player, it would completely reset, or sometimes get stuck on a score and light sequence - everything was frozen (scores and insert lights), until i hit start button again.

This happened with the original mpu, which looks a bit nasty with some corrosion, so i put a brand new NVRAM Weebly board in there, and it is still resetting and displaying all of the above behaviour. I tested the 5V on the MPU, and managed to get it on a reset when the ball drained as player 1 - the votlage appeared to stay a solid 5.2V the whole time.

I've reseated plugs on the solenoid driver board and power supply board, really have no idea where to go here. Could be a wiring issue?

#2 2 years ago

Could maybe try starting a 1 player game then unplugging the coin door wiring and seeing if it still tries to add more players. Could be a wiring or diode issue on the coin door

#3 2 years ago
Quoted from Knxwledge:

Could maybe try starting a 1 player game then unplugging the coin door wiring and seeing if it still tries to add more players. Could be a wiring or diode issue on the coin door

Good idea - did this and still showed the same behaviour. Although with the coin harness unplugged, twice when i dropped the middle in line target, it added players to the game. Then i plugged the door back in, started a new game, adn dropped all targets and it played normally!

Then next game, i dropped the first target, and the game reset....

#4 2 years ago
Quoted from robm:

Good idea - did this and still showed the same behaviour. Although with the coin harness unplugged, twice when i dropped the middle in line target, it added players to the game. Then i plugged the door back in, started a new game, adn dropped all targets and it played normally!
Then next game, i dropped the first target, and the game reset....

Such a weird problem, I keep thinking it's gotta be the diode on the start button but that's not in the switch matrix so I don't think it would be causing these issues. You are using the targets as the test to try to trigger the game to reset, does the game reset when no switches are pressed, or when other switches are pressed? I would try to figure out what switches are causing it to reset and check the diodes on them

#5 2 years ago

Inspected diodes on drops, all seemed to test ok in circuit. I unplugged the centre moving target in case that was mucking something up.

Now am consistently getting the game to end after 2 balls!!!! It counts down bonus after ball 2 drain, then goes back to attract mode!

#6 2 years ago
Quoted from robm:

Now am consistently getting the game to end after 2 balls

You might have the MPU board set to 2 balls per game (DIP switches 31 and 32).

Remove the ball from the game and reset all drop targets up.
Put the game in switch test mode.
Activate each switch in *reverse* order starting from switch #32 and move your way down to #01 with respect to the switch number IDs listed in the manual. When you reach the drop targets activate them and leave them down, move onto the next.
Take note of when switches you activate start reporting the wrong number.

#7 2 years ago

Does the top right rollover button have a disc capacitor on it? If so, cut it off and see if behavior changes.

Quoted from Knxwledge:

I keep thinking it's gotta be the diode on the start button but that's not in the switch matrix so I don't think it would be causing these issues.

The start button is in the switch matrix it's not shown on the playfield switch page since it's a cabinet switch. It is column 0, row 5.

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from slochar:

Does the top right rollover button have a disc capacitor on it? If so, cut it off and see if behavior changes.

The start button is in the switch matrix it's not shown on the playfield switch page since it's a cabinet switch. It is column 0, row 5.

Just about all caps have ben cut off switches from what i see

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

You might have the MPU board set to 2 balls per game (DIP switches 31 and 32).
Remove the ball from the game and reset all drop targets up.
Put the game in switch test mode.
Activate each switch in *reverse* order starting from switch #32 and move your way down to #01 with respect to the switch number IDs listed in the manual. When you reach the drop targets activate them and leave them down, move onto the next.
Take note of when switches you activate start reporting the wrong number.

Wow, didn't realise you could set these to 2 ball! Thought either 3 or 5 ball with switch 16. Set to 3 ball now, and that at least works, however it still doesn't explain why i was getting resets randomly, or with a drop target hit - although this is not consistent. Have to go to work now, so will check other ideas later.

#10 2 years ago
Quoted from robm:

however it still doesn't explain why i was getting resets randomly, or with a drop target hit - although this is not consistent. Have to go to work now, so will check other ideas later.

Because you likely have a short somewhere in the switch matrix and are getting phantom slam reset triggers. You are getting phantom start button and other switch activations. These require multiple switches to be closed (i.e. when drop targets are down) to occur.
Hence running the switch test in the method I mentioned.

#11 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

You might have the MPU board set to 2 balls per game (DIP switches 31 and 32).
Remove the ball from the game and reset all drop targets up.
Put the game in switch test mode.
Activate each switch in *reverse* order starting from switch #32 and move your way down to #01 with respect to the switch number IDs listed in the manual. When you reach the drop targets activate them and leave them down, move onto the next.
Take note of when switches you activate start reporting the wrong number.

OK, did as instructed, and all tests report correctly ie: correct switch numbers every time - both with drops dropped, and left standing up.

I got the machine to fairly consistently add players, reset or add credits during gameplay when any one of the drops was down, but only when either pop bumper was actuated a few times, typically one or two pop bumper hits did not create the issue. Dropping the targets and firing all other switches would not result in credits added, players added or a reset.

#12 2 years ago

Can you post some clear pictures of the gate outlane switch? Need to see how it's wired plus a side on view showing how it's stacked.

#13 2 years ago

A couple of pics

PXL_20220404_192503522 (resized).jpgPXL_20220404_192503522 (resized).jpgPXL_20220404_192511549 (resized).jpgPXL_20220404_192511549 (resized).jpgPXL_20220404_192549511 (resized).jpgPXL_20220404_192549511 (resized).jpgPXL_20220404_192603268 (resized).jpgPXL_20220404_192603268 (resized).jpg
#14 2 years ago

Also worth noting the tilt actuated by the rolling ball doesn't work (no blade on switch), nor does the normal plumbob tilt. The tilt beside the plumbob does, as does the one under the playfield.

Also, i retried starting a game, unplugged coin door and when the in line drops are dropped, it still adds credits and players when you actuate the pop bumpers a number of times.

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from robm:

A couple of pics

Not seeing anything out of the ordinary on that gate outlane switch. Whether you're aware or not, switch matrix issues usually show up in a box configuration when you look at the matrix schematic.

Since you know the drop targets and the pop bumpers are involved, drop the 2X inline target and repeatedly activate the right pop bumper. Does it add players?
Then try the same but with the left pop bumper, then drop the 3X inline, then 5X inline etc.
Essentially try and narrow down exactly which switches are involved.

Quoted from robm:

Also worth noting the tilt actuated by the rolling ball doesn't work (no blade on switch), nor does the normal plumbob tilt. The tilt beside the plumbob does, as does the one under the playfield.

Your tilt roll cage shows a single blade at the end and that's all there should be. The rolling ball "makes" the switch by connecting the cage to that single blade. The cage has the blue-orange return wire and the single blade has the red-green strobe wire. You might have a bad connection on the blue-orange wire at the MPU J3-15 connector.
There's a weighted tilt switch between the flipper mechanisms under the playfield. Does that one work?

Quoted from robm:

still adds credits

When you say it adds credits are you hearing the insert coin sound?

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Not seeing anything out of the ordinary on that gate outlane switch. Whether you're aware or not, switch matrix issues usually show up in a box configuration when you look at the matrix schematic.
Since you know the drop targets and the pop bumpers are involved, drop the 2X inline target and repeatedly activate the right pop bumper. Does it add players?
Then try the same but with the left pop bumper, then drop the 3X inline, then 5X inline etc.
Essentially try and narrow down exactly which switches are involved.

Your tilt roll cage shows a single blade at the end and that's all there should be. The rolling ball "makes" the switch by connecting the cage to that single blade. The cage has the blue-orange return wire and the single blade has the red-green strobe wire. You might have a bad connection on the blue-orange wire at the MPU J3-15 connector.
There's a weighted tilt switch between the flipper mechanisms under the playfield. Does that one work?

When you say it adds credits are you hearing the insert coin sound?

Really appreciate your help on this so far.

I've tried narrowing it down, and it is seemingly random.

I can't get it to exhibit the issue when drops are all up, however when any of them are down (one or all), i get any of the following, but not repeatable...

1. Either pop bumper adds credits or players (not together)
2. Either pop bumper and a couple of times the kickout hole at the top either slam tilted (game reset), or normal tilt (game freezes essentially until ball drains)

Its hard to identify if it adds the coin sound effect when it adds credits, since the soudn of the coil firing and other game sounds are all playing.

However... i decided to remove the under playfield fuse, so no coils fire - and when i did this, i could not get the problems to happen - it just scored as normal, no tilts or credits, extra players when i hit the pop bumper switches repeatedly. So this leads me to think there is a vibration issue when a coil fires - or some weird thing where coils are feeding a signal back to mpu or something? Not sure what i should be looking for though?

I jsut tested the vibration theory - and thumped the playfield in mulitple places (with the fuse in and out), and could not get a reset, tilt or add player/credit. I did get very occasional scoring (3k or 5k), but nothing else. Also noticed that sometimes the pop bumper firing would cause the hole at the top to kickout as well - again, not pattern or consistency.

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from robm:

I can't get it to exhibit the issue when drops are all up, however when any of them are down (one or all), i get any of the following, but not repeatable...

The 2X inline drop target is on the same row as the start button. So that target down in combination with other switches causes the additional players.
The 5X inline drop target is on the same row as the slam tilt reset. So it's likely playing a part (not the fault) why the resets are happening.

Quoted from robm:

Also noticed that sometimes the pop bumper firing would cause the hole at the top to kickout as well - again, not pattern or consistency.

The saucer is on the same row as the 3X inline drop target.

Quoted from robm:

Its hard to identify if it adds the coin sound effect when it adds credits, since the sound of the coil firing and other game sounds are all playing.

Reason I asked about an insert coin sound was to determine if credits were added via a phantom coin switch or whether your test MPU simply has low score reward thresholds and the knocker isn't working so it's adding credits because the score thresholds were reached.

What will help on this one is if you note down the coins per coin chute counters in the audits and see which chute audit is incrementing to know which of the three coin chutes switches is being phantom activated.

Quoted from robm:

So this leads me to think there is a vibration issue when a coil fires

Sounds like it since hitting the pop bumpers once doesn't cause the issue.
The thing on your side is this game has a low number of physical switches. Might be time to very closely inspect them, test all their diodes are working properly and soldered in the correct direction and make sure the diodes are soldered on tabs that are separated in the stack.

Just for reference to this thread, the games switch matrix is below:

BlackPyramid_SwitchMatrix.pngBlackPyramid_SwitchMatrix.png

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
1,695
Machine - For Sale
Riverside, CA
$ 18.00
Electronics
Yorktown Arcade Supply
 
$ 18.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 199.95
From: $ 110.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
 
$ 44.99
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Pinball Shark
 
From: $ 2.99
$ 22.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 15.45
Gameroom - Decorations
KAHR.US Circuits
 
Hey modders!
Your shop name here

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-black-pyramid-reset-and-random-scoring and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.