(Topic ID: 219697)

Bally Ballerina@ 1948 version


By JKnPA

11 months ago



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    Ballerina bonus switches (resized).jpg
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    Ballerina 1M step up coil (resized).jpg
    Ballerina NO 10M switches (resized).jpg
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    Ballerina 10k unit annotated (resized).jpg
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    #1 11 months ago

    Anyone have a schematic for this machine ?
    I copied the link for the schematic at 'IPDB', but it is too blurry to read.
    The relay in the Backbox does not stay latched ON when the game is started. The game only stays ON
    if I jump-out the relay switch.
    Any help with the schematic or game operation would be appreciated.
    john

    #2 11 months ago

    Hi JK - the bluriness of the copy is pretty typical of older schematics - shakier hands drawing them, I guess (or, more likely, multiple reproductions between what you're looking at and what was original). Regardless, I can read that schem, and happy to help. Which relay do you mean? Anti-cheat?

    #3 11 months ago

    I believe I fixed that problem....... not sure if it was caused by the problem noted below .
    I was having a problem getting good contact on the Tilt switch that is normally closed. It is the switch on the
    far right side of the schematic that goes to the Flippers. I had to voltage going to the Flipper coil.
    Why is the 6V. common coming down from above going to that switch and the flipper coil. I would think it
    would go thru the 'shuffle' switch.
    Right now it is up and running, but the Timer motor keeps running. I assume it should be OFF.....Yes ?

    ScreenHunter_95 Jun. 20 16.58 (resized).jpg

    #4 11 months ago

    The commons are connected at all times except during a brief moment while the baffle is pushed in. The tilt switch you mentioned, being NC, allows the 50v and 6v common to connect.

    You can ignore that. Tilt switches NC that are not conducting well or closed firmly enough is a problem that happens for many games.

    The common for the coils is cut off during the baffle press to prevent erratic stepup.

    There isn't a timer motor shown on the schem - only a timer unit. If there's a mechanical bell timer in the game, you'll hear it ticking for about 2 minutes. I've worked on games where that unit needed to be refurbed to turn correctly. Games with mechanical timers will shut off 120V using a switch mounted inside the bell.

    #5 11 months ago

    I always thought the 50V. ( hot) was being switched from top to bottom on the schematic, and all
    the coil commons( bottom) were tied together.
    In this case then BOTH Commons ( Red and Blue arrows) are being switched ???
    Yes its a Timer unit with multiple switches on it; mostly for the Bonus Unit.
    I will get a picture for you later today.

    #6 11 months ago

    The Timer Unit............... I checked all the switches, they look like they are set ok.

    IMG_2892 (resized).JPGIMG_2893 (resized).JPG
    #7 11 months ago

    added Bonus unit..

    IMG_2894 (resized).JPG
    #8 11 months ago

    The hot side of the coils is drawn on the bottom.

    The first photos are of the score motor, not the timer unit.

    The score motor controls functions like kickout. It is the only motor shown on the schematic.

    #9 11 months ago
    Quoted from bingopodcast:

    The hot side of the coils is drawn on the bottom.
    The first photos are of the score motor, not the timer unit.
    The score motor controls functions like kickout. It is the only motor shown on the schematic.

    ............................................................................................................................................
    OOOOH........ then this label is Wrong ??????
    So it should run for a few minutes then shutoff ?

    IMG_2892 (resized).JPG
    #10 11 months ago

    This switch is mounted to the frame of the 10M assy.
    Both switch contacts are closed.
    There is nothing there to change the switch from closed to open. Am I missing something for this switch assy. ?
    The left side switch contacts when closed cause the Score motor to run. If the switch is forced open, the motor
    doesn't run.
    Any thoughts on this switch assy.
    ***** When running...... it doesn't stop , it keeps running.

    IMG_2898 (resized).JPG
    #11 11 months ago

    Label must be wrong - the switch labels on the unit indicate scoring function. It's also mounted to the only motor on the schematics.

    On a typical Bally of the era, there should be a post sticking out that will hit that switch stack at a certain position. Guessing that the switch blade that moves the two switches sheared off, but need another pic to be sure.

    The other thing to note is that if the score motor is running - the unit either doesn't know it has reset, or there is a stuck scoring switch or switch under a kickout hole or something similar. While that motor is running, are the kickouts punching every so often?

    #12 11 months ago

    I had it running ok a few days back, but the motor was continuously Running.
    There was an O-ring (Bumper contact) touching, so it wanted to keep scoring. I re-adjusted that so it was not
    touching.
    Now..... the 1K stepper is cycling for about 1 min., then the machine shuts off.
    I don't think any kickout is firing, but the 'DU' and "ET' lites on the playfield are Flashing.
    I didn't see anything touching under the playfield, but I guess something is.
    I didn't see anything broken on the 10K stepper that would actuate that switch for the Motor.
    Do you ???

    IMG_2897 (resized).JPG
    #13 11 months ago

    I inserted paper spacers in the switch contacts so they remain OPEN.
    When I do that...... 'Ballerina' plays.....
    If anyone knows how this switch should function........ Chime in !
    Some Pics included.......Front door and Right side of Backcase paint issue!
    *** White lite on backglass is outside light coming thru backdoor, not flaking.
    Overall the Backglass is flaking very badly.

    IMG_2906 (resized).JPGIMG_2907 (resized).JPGIMG_2908 (resized).JPGIMG_2909 (resized).JPGIMG_2911 (resized).JPG
    #14 11 months ago
    Quoted from JKnPA:

    I didn't see anything broken on the 10K stepper that would actuate that switch for the Motor. Do you ???

    Maybe. There's a spot on the rim of the 10k stepper gear at about 8 o'clock. Could that be a pin that has sheared off?

    Here's a theory that's plausible but a little far fetched. It's more confusing since I think the schematic calls the 10k stepper a 10M stepper. Anyway, there's a Normally Open switch on the 10k/10M stepper that causes the score motor to turn when it's closed:
    Ballerina motor (resized).jpg
    It's labeled as "-1" which makes me think that when this thing resets it resets to a -1 position (like some Gottliebs do) and must take one step forward to the zero position as part of the reset sequence. When the stepper is in the -1 position the switch closes, calls for the score motor and presumably the score motor makes it take one step forward to its reset position. (There's a 2nd switch on the schematic also labeled the same way which would account for the second switch in the switch stack.)

    The two switches at the bottom of the gear appear to be Normally Closed, which keeps your score motor running, right? Could it be that they should both be Normally Open instead? The photo in reply #10 seems to show a piece of insulating fish paper on the left side of the switch stack which would indicate that the switch stack is intended to be activated from the left side. (Is there fish paper on the left side? And does it have a wear spot on it where a pin might have been?) The spacer between the two switches also seems to be mounted on the right switch which seems to confirm that the switch wasn't intended to be activated from the right.

    Putting it all together here's a scenario for how it might be intended to work:
    Ballerina 10k unit annotated (resized).jpg
    At reset the 10k/10M stepper gear rotates counter clockwise until the (missing) pin is at the 6 o'clock position. In that position the pin *closes* the two switches in the switch stack which starts the score motor. The score motor eventually causes the 10k/10M stepper to advance one step, which moves the (missing) pin to the left and allows the two switches top *open*. The 10k/10M stepper is then ready for a new game.

    Or, did I totally misunderstand the problem?

    /Mark

    #15 11 months ago

    Maybe. There's a spot on the rim of the 10k stepper gear at about 8 o'clock. Could that be a pin that has sheared off?
    ...................................................
    I think you are correct Sir. It is completely smooth, so I didn't even notice it. It will line up at 6 o'clock when the
    stepper wheel resets to Zero at about 3 o'clock. See my attachment.
    I made the attachment before I saw the rest of you post.......
    ..............................................................................................................

    At reset the 10k/10M stepper gear rotates counter clockwise until the (missing) pin is at the 6 o'clock position. In that position the pin *closes* the two switches in the switch stack which starts the score motor. The score motor eventually causes the 10k/10M stepper to advance one step, which moves the (missing) pin to the left and allows the two switches top *open*. The 10k/10M stepper is then ready for a new game.
    .................................................................
    Yes that would make sense. I can't read the schematic, so I can't tell what is happening in the Motor circuit.
    How did you get a clear view of those switches?????

    IMG_2897 (resized).JPG
    #16 11 months ago

    OOOOPs......... hit the SEND button twice. I was distracted trying to explain the attachment..

    #17 11 months ago

    I'm having trouble with the 'latching relay' that keeps the power On. Its that relay in the backcase.
    Can you show me what the circuit looks like ? I can't tell where it is on the schematic.
    Sometimes it holds On, but most of the time it doesn't. I have to jump out the switch contacts to keep the
    game On.
    ****** I think the pin on the 10K stepper should look like this. Similar gear on 'Bonus Counter'.
    Thanks.

    ScreenHunter_96 Jun. 25 06.58 (resized).jpg
    #18 11 months ago

    Guessing you are referring to the Anti-Cheat relay? Power is turned on initially by the small stack of switches actuated by the shuffle (piece under the playfield that is pushed by the coin slide). From there, 120V is routed through the transformer to the secondary windings. One of the windings is the 50V winding, which powers all the coils. One of the coils is the Anti-Cheat relay. While this is on, 120V is allowed to continue to flow.

    I would suggest seeing if you can press the armature on the Anti-cheat relay, and will it remain on? If so, then you have a dirty/maladjusted shuffle switch. If not, then you have a dirty/maladjusted anti-cheat relay.

    Note that the game must be in reset position for the anti-cheat relay to function (the coin slide has to be pushed in and pulled back out - this resets a trip bank containing tilt and etc.

    That picture above is what I was talking about - that arm hits the switches. It seems from your earlier photo that the switch might be missing a long actuating blade, but maybe not.

    #19 11 months ago
    Quoted from bingopodcast:

    Guessing you are referring to the Anti-Cheat relay? Power is turned on initially by the small stack of switches actuated by the shuffle (piece under the playfield that is pushed by the coin slide). From there, 120V is routed through the transformer to the secondary windings. One of the windings is the 50V winding, which powers all the coils. One of the coils is the Anti-Cheat relay. While this is on, 120V is allowed to continue to flow.
    I would suggest seeing if you can press the armature on the Anti-cheat relay, and will it remain on? If so, then you have a dirty/maladjusted shuffle switch. If not, then you have a dirty/maladjusted anti-cheat relay.
    ** It doesn't stay ON when depresses. I also cleaned it several times! Do you know a part# so I can replace it.**
    Note that the game must be in reset position for the anti-cheat relay to function (the coin slide has to be pushed in and pulled back out - this resets a trip bank containing tilt and etc.
    *** YES, I am doing that.
    That picture above is what I was talking about - that arm hits the switches. It seems from your earlier photo that the switch might be missing a long actuating blade, but maybe not.

    *** That is a picture of the 'Bonus Counter', not the 10K stepper unit that is the issue.

    #20 11 months ago
    Quoted from JKnPA:

    *** That is a picture of the 'Bonus Counter', not the 10K stepper unit that is the issue.

    Yes, but it has a similar part to hit those switches. Sorry to confuse.

    ** It doesn't stay ON when depresses. I also cleaned it several times! Do you know a part# so I can replace it.**

    I don't - perhaps adjust the timing of the shuffle switches a bit so that that switch remains closed for a little bit longer. Is the anti-cheat mounted under the playfield (near the shuffle switches) or up in the head?

    #21 11 months ago

    The coil resistance is only about 20 ohms. The coil resistance of my Bally Bingos is 105 ohms.
    The part # is 50v-c-2342-110 for the anti-cheat relay. do you think that relay would work/
    The Shuffle switches are sitting on top of the bar in the closed position. They stay that way when the
    slide is operated. they wouldn't change position unless the coil is energized.
    I don't know what energizes that particular coil. I can take a Pic of it tomorrow.
    I'm thinking the coil resistance of the anti-cheat relay is too low and is too weak to latch the coil!

    #22 11 months ago

    Pictures are a little blurry but you can see the Shuffle switches and the tilt switches.
    The Shuffle switch closes the two front switches when the bar moves forward to Start the game. The back switch
    is closed when the coil is energized and the black rollers pull back.
    The Tilt switches are closed normally; sitting tight against the black rollers. They only Open if the coil is energized.
    That looks ok to me, but I could be wrong.

    IMG_2912 (resized).JPGIMG_2913 (resized).JPGIMG_2914 (resized).JPG
    #23 11 months ago

    At reset the 10k/10M stepper gear rotates counter clockwise until the (missing) pin is at the 6 o'clock position. In that position the pin *closes* the two switches in the switch stack which starts the score motor. The score motor eventually causes the 10k/10M stepper to advance one step, which moves the (missing) pin to the left and allows the two switches top *open*. The 10k/10M stepper is then ready for a new game.
    .................................................................................................................................................
    I was able to install a pin to actuate the switch at the bottom of the gear, which acts as a reset.
    The way the switch assy. is setup, the left switch is N.C.( normally closed), and the right switch is N. O.
    The above insert implies they should be both N. C.
    I can not get the 10K unit to advance and get out of the Reset position. Are my switches set properly or should they
    be both be N.O. ?
    See post 15 for the Pic of the two steppers.
    Also how does it know where the Zero positio of the 1K stepper is, if there is no stop on the gear. it is a
    continuous stepper. It is marked with a 'white paint mark', but i don't see how it knows where to stop for a new game.
    John

    #24 11 months ago
    Quoted from JKnPA:

    The way the switch assy. is setup, the left switch is N.C.( normally closed), and the right switch is N. O.
    The above insert implies they should be both N. C.
    I can not get the 10K unit to advance and get out of the Reset position. Are my switches set properly or should they
    be both be N.O. ?

    The photos show both switches with long blades on the left side which tells me that that they should both be the same (either NO or NC). If the (formerly missing) pin comes from the left and touches the switches during reset, having them already NC would have no effect. I think they should both be NO so they close when the pin comes from the left.

    Here are the two switches on the schematic that I think are the two switches in the photo:
    Ballerina NO 10M switches (resized).jpg
    I would compare the wire colors or connectivity from the schematic against what's in your game to be sure. But my best guess is that they should both be Normally Open.

    #25 11 months ago
    Quoted from JKnPA:

    Also how does it know where the Zero positio of the 1K stepper is, if there is no stop on the gear. it is a
    continuous stepper. It is marked with a 'white paint mark', but i don't see how it knows where to stop for a new game.

    Since the 1K stepper (1M stepper in the schematic) is a continuous stepper, there won't be a mechanical stop. It stops under the control of the circuit for the 1M Step Up coil:
    Ballerina 1M step up coil (resized).jpg
    Here's an educated guess at how it works. During reset, the 10M stepper reset coil fires and 10M stepper rewinds to the -1 position which causes the "-1 Switch on 10M" in the schematic above to close. That allows groups of 5 pulses from the "5 Pulse Cam Switch on Timer Unit" to reach the "1M Step Up Coil" along the red path. The pulses cause the 1M stepper to advance until a switch on the 1M stepper disc (in the red box) closes and lets one pulse get to the "10M Step Up Coil" too. When the 10M stepper advances from the -1 position to the 0 position, the "-1 Switch on 10M" opens and no more pulses get to either stepper. Both should be at their starting/reset positions.

    #26 11 months ago

    Thank you very much..........I would never be able to figure that out......LoL...
    I know the switch on the right side of the 10k Zero switch runs the motor when it is closed, because the motor would keep running when the 10k stepper was staying in the Reset position. I had to stick a paper insulator between the
    blades to stop it from running.
    I have had a problem reading the schematic and wasn't sure which switches were which.
    I'm still trying to locate those inertia switches that should be closed to 'lock-in' the Anti-Cheat relay.....
    I will work on it later today.
    *******Thank you for the quick response*******
    John

    #27 10 months ago

    I re-did the -1 switch on the 10M assy., so they are both N.O. switches. I will still have to work on the adjustment
    of the sw. assy. because the 10M ( its really 10K ) resets, but stays there.
    I checked continuity thru the entire circuit shown above..... that looks ok. It looks like the problem is the adj. of the
    above switch assy.
    The Bonus Counter also resets and stays there; not sure if that should also advance one position or stay there.
    All the 'kicker holes' work except the bottom two. See attachment.
    I will work on the switch again.

    IMG_2904 (resized).JPG
    #28 10 months ago

    I think I got the adjustment right now.....
    I'm working on the two kicker-holes shown above. The switches are ok.
    Can someone explain how the scoring works for the bonus lites across the bottom ? Are they part of the 'kicker-holes'
    shown above.
    As of now..... the balls go in those holes, but never kick out.
    Thanks.....

    #29 10 months ago
    Quoted from JKnPA:

    I'm working on the two kicker-holes shown above. The switches are ok.
    Can someone explain how the scoring works for the bonus lites across the bottom ? Are they part of the 'kicker-holes'
    shown above.
    As of now..... the balls go in those holes, but never kick out.

    The Bonus lights at the bottom are controlled by the Bonus Counter as shown in the top half of this schematic:
    Ballerina bonus switches (resized).jpg
    The Bonus Counter is the stepper from reply #7 whose wipers advance across contacts as the Bonus accumulates to light different Bonus lights.

    The bottom half of the schematic above shows that when a ball lands in either of the Bonus holes from reply #27:
    1 - one of the two Bonus Hole switches closes. Note that both Bonus Hole switches have three leaves each rather than the usual two leaves. Make sure that all three leaves are closing together when a ball lands and that they're making good contact. Once the ball closes one of those switches, either
    2- the Cycle relay should fire or,
    3 - the Motor should start turning depending on the position of the
    4 - "Duet Win Arm" switch. I don't know where that switch is. You'll have to hunt around using the wire colors on the schematic.

    In addition to the above, closing the Bonus Hole switch should also fire the
    5 - Bonus Counter Escapement coil (which I believe is in the upper left corner of the Bonus Counter) if
    6 - the switch on Timer Unit is closed.

    So, when a ball drops in the Bonus Hole, does either the Cycle relay fire or the Motor start turning? And does the Bonus Counter Escapement coil fire? If not start there.

    /Mark

    #30 10 months ago

    Escapement coil.......... Yes that is the coil you show. That unit steps- down one unit when it fires.
    Why is it called that, and why does it step-down?
    DuEt Arm sw, ....... Mounted on the slide switch.

    Kicker hole sws....... Adjusted so all 3 contacts are closed when ball sits on switch.
    ***** See attachments for Bonus 7 Double Bonus sws. and DuEt sw.

    **** Will work on unit later today...........
    Thanks Mark.....

    IMG_2893 (resized).JPGIMG_2918 (resized).JPG
    #31 10 months ago

    Found switch asy. 'DuEt' contacts bent in the Open position. Top switch blades should be N.C.
    Bonus lites 30K and 35K do not light. Examined wiring on Bonus Counter circuit board; solder
    connections very corroded. Re-soldered leads on board and made a list of wire connections.
    Noticed there are two stops on this Bonus Counter; not sure why! It looks like the gear can
    only go on correctly with the Zero stop at the 6o'clock position to actuate the bottom switch.
    See attachment of 'DuEt' switch before adjustment.

    Will continue today......

    IMG_2918 (resized).JPG
    1 week later
    #32 10 months ago

    Up and Running Ok....... not sure it is 100%.
    Started to make a few stencils to touch-up artwork.
    Need picture of front door to make a stencil. Most of paint on front door is gone.
    See attachment.....

    IMG_2908 (resized).JPG
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