I hate to be such a fanboy, but omg, they are stunning. That's amazing.

I have to ask... Did you restore these games? What's the story with that Voltan, the cabinet isn't even faded?!? How does that happen?

Hey folks. I'm restoring a Future Spa, and as I'm cleaning up and replacing connectors, I noticed some weirdness I'd love opinions on.

First, note the 20-pin connector that plugs into the rectifier board. You can see three burnt pins, and wires have been clipped:

IMG_1812.JPG

Also note two wires clipped from the 9-pin connector:

IMG_1813.JPG

Here's what they looked like in-situ in the game:

IMG_0173.JPG
IMG_0159.JPG

Any thoughts as to what's going on here? I've got new connectors going in and a new rectifier board from barakandl going in place of the original, I just don't want to blow anything if some previous owner has been moving things around!

On the 20 pin, pin 8, the 12v DC (orange), pin 10, 7v AC (orange), and pin 11, 7v AC (orange). They seem to have been wired permanently into another connector (the 9 pin) and then from there soldered directly to the test pins. Sigh.

Two of the wires involved are orange. One is 12v DC and one is 7v AC. Sorry if this is obvious, but any clue to which one is which? If I had to guess I'd say the thick orange, like the thick red, is AC, but I might as well ask.

While that's possible, I've seen paint peel like that, and I've also seen vinyl coverings peel off like that (like decals or on rails).

On our Future Spa, the playfield harness has been completely refitted with new connectors and new lamps/sockets went on the playfield. When testing, some control/insert lamps will not light (or during attract mode).

We're looking for some ideas of what to check next. Here's what we know:

- Continuity tests perfectly from bulb lug to lamp driver pin for lamps that won't light.
- Swapping the lamp driver board with a known working backup produces no change.
- Swapping the MPU board with a known working backup produces no change.
- Connectors have been audited between the lamp driver and MPU, and specific pins on both sets of connectors for both boards, no mis-ordered pins found (yet).
- Bulbs test fine both in and out of the socket with a tester, both polarities.

I feel like I'm missing something really obvious.

Any suggestions?

Ok, I went through these tests, and didn't get far. What started moving me in the right direction is that I noticed there was a "stuck switch" test failure for the tilt switch. When I disconnect the cabinet and playfield switch hardnesses from the MPU, *all* the feature lamps/control lamps turn on in lamp test.

Clearly there is something going on with this cabinet harness interfering with this, correct?

Figured it out. Tilt switch control wire was making contact with ground. Sigh.

This is the sort of isolation thing I knew at an academic level (I'm a network engineer, so I do this sort of troubleshooting this way in the field), but never had to deal with on a repair level quite like this before. I also suck at electric so I tend to glaze over when dealing with some of this stuff.

To figure this out, here is what I knew:

- When the playfield and switch harness connectors were removed from the MPU, all the lamps lit up. At that point, I knew it was switch related.

- When the playfield switches were left connected, but cabinet removed, the lamps would light normally. This meant it was something in the cabinet.

- I remembered that when I did my initial electric test without the playfield harness, a game wouldn't start with the start button. I originally assumed that was due to the lack of playfield harness (no ball found, etc.). However, the more I thought about it, something else might be up.

- Performing the switch test where it reports the lowest number stuck switch, with just the cabinet harness installed, reported the tilt switch.

- I mentioned that in our restoration thread, and radium asked if there was any chance that the tilt switch was somehow connected to ground. I stared at it and thought, "no, no way." I then did a continuity test and, sure enough, it was connected to ground.

- Staring at it for like three minutes before I realized the brand new ground braid (this is a new restoration) went behind the tilt wood panel in the cabinet, and that maybe the mounting screw for the tilt bob penetrated the wood and touched the ground braid...

Anyway, I always love it when people post their thought process here, it sinks in and helps me later with my own troubleshooting.

Hey folks. I've got a weird one for you on my Future Spa. Honestly I don't know if this is normal. The whole game works, all systems check out.

I've got a situation where certain control/insert lamps, with incandescents OR a properly installed Alltek board with LEDs, will flicker when on.

I'd say it was design intention, but for example, in the words FUTURE SPA on the main lower playfield, F flickers, UTU stays solid, and RE SPA, 18k and SPECIAL flicker, 36k stays solid. Why would they be different?

I've checked voltages on the common wire, it's all consistent. Again, this happens with incandescents as well.

I've swapped the lamp board, the MPU board, or both, and get the same result. This is true in attract mode or lamp test.

Here's some more information on some of the lamps involved from the schematics, it's not a complete list but we looked for commonalities:

J1:18, SCR Q14,R14
J1:19, SCR Q12, R12
J1, SCR Q29, R29
J1:9, SCR Q27, R27
J3:26, SCR Q36, R36
J3:25, SCR Q38, R38
J3, SCR Q57, R57
J3:12, SCR Q50, R50

The only thing we found is that they come off address 0 or 1 on the IC chips.

I shot a high-speed video that shows you in slow motion the flickering for some lamps here. Remember, this happens with incandescents or LEDs with resistors:

Anyone have any thoughts on where to chase this ghost, or am I just oversensitive to something that is part of the game?

These are all brand new sockets and I’ve checked them for shorts, no luck. At least I haven’t been able to find any continuity between them or on other lines or ground.

During lamp tests the same lamps pulse while the rest stay solid.

Here is a high-speed video of the sockets representing the top lamps during lamp test. As you can see, F U T U R are flickering, E is not.

I'll add that I've swapped the MPU with a brand new Alltek and get the same results. Also, all connectors were re-done with brand new crimps. Lamp driver connectors are TE/Amps with proper trifercons. I'm not sure what to test next.

This is a fantastic chart. Super helpful, thank you so much.

Here is the chip. Can you identify what version it is?

alltek_u12.jpg

It says "CD4049UBE," but how can I tell if it's a buffered version or not? It also says 71AQX1M on it.

I checked those four wires/connectors/crimps. While one was a little loose (AD3) and I tightened it up with a new trifurcon, I then plugged the connectors in and pulled them out just slightly to test continuity pin to pin. It all tests good.

Unfortunately, the symptom is the same. It's still very likely it's my wiring (this flicker didn't exist before this restoration). I just can't find it.

Would any other wires between MPU J1 and LDB J4 possibly cause this flicker?

There is only one LAMP STROBE listed on the LDB, and it's pin 13 which goes to pin 11 on MPU J1. I will check that out now.

Lamp strobe wire is fine, in the right place and tests perfectly. This is driving me bananas.

Ok, here's another clue for the mystery. I had the game on for about 20 minutes as I was troubleshooting. Towards the end of the 20 minutes, a few lamps came back on to no flicker. Something is heating up and working better. Does this shed any light?

I'm going to re-terminate all the address and strobe lines now.

Made no difference. What would heat up and improve? We know it’s not the MPU, or the LDB, as both have been swapped without change. Ground noise? But then why only some lamps?

Yes, the same thing happens during gameplay and also during lamp test mode.

I would do this but I already tried swapping both the lamp driver board and mpu board with no change, so it can't be something specific to the board itself.

When the switches are disconnected from the MPU I get the same results.

This is really a wacky mystery. Anyone have any other suggestions? Since it seems to effect some lamps but not others on the same common wire, I feel like it's got to be something adding noise/etc. to just the lower addresses (AD0 and AD1). Could grounding somehow have something to do with this?

As you can see here, the Alltek MPU board has some different test points:

IMG_3098 (resized).JPG

The "zero crossing" test point on the MPU registers 22.5VDC. Is that what you mean? The LDB has only three test points. TP1 registers 5VDC, TP2 is GND, and TP3 registers 5VDC.

Can you explain how to use a multimeter to test for a stable 120hz, or is that something I need to use an o-scope for?

I have a scope designed to work with my computer. It's not the best, but I've used it in a pinch. That being said, I have little to no understanding on how to use it. So two things: Any tips on how to set the o-scope for what we need here, and what I'm looking for? Also, how to I "look at the PIA port and ad0 at the LDB?" Is that a trace someplace (or a pin on a chip) that I need to touch with my scope/logic analyzer?

Also...Since I have swapped out the MPU board *and* the LDB board with new boards and got the same result... to quote you from your own thread four years ago: "Man made issues on U14 caused the flickering lamps. Soldering problems caused resistance on the U14 VCC connection. The output was still pulsing 120 times a second, but the VCC resistance effected the strength of the zero crossing pulsing going to the PIA. Lamp, switch, and solenoid all use zero crossing to time the interrupts but the issue only manifested in the lamp updating."

I'm guessing it's not something on the board since the swap didn't change anything, but could something off the board cause VCC resistance and impact the strength of the zero crossing going through the PIA?

Is there any way to TEST the integrity of the address and strobe wires between the boards? Would there be any benefit of replacing the harness wiring for the address and strobe lines with twisted pair? I can't be 100% sure my new crimps are perfect, but since I reterminated all of them and got the exact same problem, it led me to the conclusion that the wiring was crimped properly. One little nick or over-tightened cable tie on the AD0 line might increase attenuation or something, right?

Just to be clear, I am not using LEDs.

I’ve now tried enhancing AD0 and AD1 with dedicated wiring and it had no change. This is really frustrating. Any ideas anyone? Not the MPU, not the LDB, not the address wiring, what’s left?

I've mapped out the lamps according to their corresponding addresses. The ones that clear up are spread across AD0 and AD1, and also spread across U1, U2, U3 and U4. The ones that continue to flicker across the game share address info with the ones that don't.

If it's an address wiring issue, I think we'd see some correlation there.

Screen Shot 2018-10-01 at 8.57.56 PM (resized).png

Alltek uses 470ohm resistors. Regardless, this is happening with incandescents.

Let me ask this question: If I have a series of lamps and only replace SOME of them with incandescents, and some were left with LEDs, could that impact the latching of the lamp with the incandescent?

When I have the Alltek board installed, I have the 6.3vdc (actually, 7vdc) feature lamp bus connected to the Alltek. When I have the original board installed, I've got Siegecraft and those are connected to the same bus.

This prevents LEDs from flickering.

However, those specific lamps I mention above, they will pulse with either LEDs or incandescents. I've tried adding a 1k resistor to individual sockets and that made no difference (incandescent or LED). However, when I've done this experiment, everything had LEDs, and I'd swap a single bulb out with an incandescent to test it to see if it was still pulsing (and it was).

So a pulsing incandescent shouldn't happen, if I read you right. This is so odd. My original goal here was to have all LEDs. I'm now worried that the lack of load from all these LEDs is creating some wonky effect, even with the 6.3vdc properly connected.

I checked the zero crossing test pad on the Alltek, it read 22.5vdc. How exactly do I test the rest? There shouldn’t be anything strange on my power coming from the house (no UPS or arrestor).

No, none of the aux lamp bulbs (which mainly are the "Future Spa" lights on the backglass) are flickering at all.

I can confirm that the wires are right going from the MPU to the LDB, I've quadruple checked, and re-terminated them. There is only ONE lamp strobe wire coming from the MPU to the LDB (pin 11 to 13), so I'm not sure what to swap it with.

I'm happy to try that, I guess I need to figure out what is the Aux Lamp Board specific strobe wire, as it's not clear on the schematics.

I'm actually using a @barakandl new rectifier board. I know the test pads all test perfectly on that board, but that's the limits of my testing.

Ok... I'll let @barakandl comment on this but is this likely an issue on a brand new rectifier board? I'm going to do an ohms check on the two TO-3s, but can you handhold me a little bit more on doing that? I'm pretty amateur with this multimeter.

None of the flickering lamps are on the aux lamp driver board. They are all on the main LDB. FWIW, the Aux Lamp Driver Board is a brand new Alltek. I could try replacing it with the original, but I'm not sure how the aux lamp board would impact the other lamps on the playfield?

Also, just a reminder, after about 10-15 minutes of the game being on, a little more than half of the flickering lamps stop flickering (see table above, they "clear up.")

I did this experiment. The results are interesting. When I swap the two strobe lines, during lamp test, the first thing to report is that the control lamps on the backbox panel (the ones that light, not all the control lamps light when I do this swap) do NOT flicker. Here is a high speed video. Remember, all of these lamps currently are LEDs that are properly connected to the 6.3v rail. The flickering you see is due to the high speed video and the light frequency:

On the playfield, the FUTURE on the top of the playfield now flashes with NO pulsing:

On the lower playfield, not all the lamps fire. However, interesting that the target SPA lamps light without pulsing, and everything but the lower F and SPA (of the lamps that light) don't pulse. The lower F and SPA lamps, however...They STAY LIT and pulse when off:

What does this tell us? Well, one thing is for sure, nothing about the wiring on the upper playfield is involved in the pulsing of the upper FUTURE lamps. That's nice to rule that out. However, the behavior of the lower F and SPA lamps, pulsing during the "off" condition, does that tell us anything?

No, I don't think so, since I re-pinned every single wire in this game. If anything, I made a bad crimp on something, but I recently re-stripped and re-pinned every single wire involved with the playfield lamps (specifically 11, and the 4 address wires, on both ends).

That's an interesting idea! I'll give that a shot and report back.

Just tried this idea, no impact unfortunately.

I'm running out of things to test. I know we can find it, I feel like it's going to be something weird.

Well we're pretty much done with the strobe hunting, although we did see that interesting behavior (the FUTURE letters not pulsing) with the other strobe. Not sure what that means though.

Ok, I have a multimeter and an o-scope (more of a student o-scope on my computer). If someone could tell me what leads go to what for the o-scope, I can take some readings and share them here.

Can anyone explain to me why, when the strobe lines are reversed, lamps would no longer pulse? And why, specifically, three lamps would pulse during their off state?

Also can anyone tell me what I need to connect leads to to properly check the frequency of zero crossing? Thanks!

I believe so, early on, and also swapped those boards. I’m going to try it again today though.

@quench if you wanted to see frequency and voltage readings from anything in this chain right now, what would you look for? I’m also going to inspect the zero crossing waveform this afternoon.

Finally, would any measurements taken at the socket help?

Absolutely. Context, In this case, I have the Alltek MPU board, an original Bally LDB w/ Siegecraft connectors. I have LEDs again in the sockets and Siegecraft boards with 6.3v rail properly verified and connected. GI fuse is out, displays disconnected from the bus, aux lamp driver board disconnected and backbox lamps disconnected from the LDB.

I can replace all of these with incandescents and re-do videos if you request. To date, to test the incandescent flickering, I've "spot replaced" LEDs with incadescents (or groups of them) so I abandoned that line of troubleshooting but can go back if you think it's a good idea.

I've made regular and high speed videos of both attract and lamp test per your request. I find high-speed is easier for me to see with crystal clarity the solid vs. flickering lamps. Be sure to set your YouTube settings to HQ.

First, attract.

Regular speed:

High speed:

Next, lamp test.

Regular speed:

High speed:

I measure 45.5VDC.

Screen Shot 2018-10-04 at 12.08.53 PM.png

This is what I get with the probe tip on the Zero Crossing test point:

Screen Shot 2018-10-04 at 11.58.29 AM.png

Let me know if you want me to make any adjustments to that o-scope. I can't get to 10V division, must be a limitation on my student scope.

I want to answer your question. Do you mean the 470pF one on this portion of the schematic of the Alltek? TP6 is the "Zero Crossing" (22.5VDC) test point.

Screen Shot 2018-10-04 at 4.11.35 PM.png

Just a reminder, the problem exists with either the Alltek or the original MPU, in precisely the same fashion (and either LDB).

Can you confirm we're talking about the 4049 at U12, and what pin I should be testing?

Could LEDs on the same address wire that have non-ghosting circuitry in them somehow interfere with the latching? I have no idea how non-ghosting circuitry works, but those are the bulbs I had so those are in there. Alternatively, could the load reduction on OTHER parts of the same lower addressing cause these lamps not to latch?

Does this look right? I think this is what you're looking for.

Screen Shot 2018-10-04 at 6.43.49 PM.png

I'm pretty sure that's C78. As far as my failing eyesight can see, it isn't marked with a number:

c78.jpg

However, again, none of this MPU stuff should matter since I've swapped MPUs back and forth with identical results. The problem MUST be in the wiring or connectors, but I haven't figured out how yet.

Agreed, but I'm talking about visible blinking, not something barely perceptible to the naked eye.

FWIW, I decided to do a little experiment. I replaced with all the FUTURE upper playfield lamps, the FUTURE SPA bottom lamps, and the SPA target lamps with "47" incandescents (basically all the blinking lamps save one). Weird results. The lower playfield FUTURE lamps stopped blinking (greater draw?). The SPA target lamps blinked worse, and very dimly. The upper FUTURE lamps changed...The two Us, R and E were solid, the rest blinking.

I do think this must somehow be SCR related, but w...t...f...

Maybe I’m looking at the wrong thing. I’m not sure I understand the U12C nomenclature. I’m probing U12 pin 6?

I’ll make sure I’ve set this probe correctly and try again, and also I have a working Bally MPU. I’ve swapped it in before with the same results, but I’ll do it again and probe it as well.

I've replaced all the sockets. The harness and electronics are the same, except I've re-terminated and re-connectored everything and replaced the rectifier board that was a Frankenstein hack job with a new one from @barakandl.

I keep repeating the U12 pin 6 experiment and keep getting the same result (I feel like I must be measuring the wrong thing). Therefore, I replaced the MPU with the Bally, and measure U14 pin 4. As you can see, here is what we get, 8.3ms:

Screen Shot 2018-10-05 at 8.29.44 AM (resized).png

I'd love to say "Eureka," but nothing changes on my lighting issue. This can't be something on the MPU unless both MPUs are broken, in different places, and creating the same problem, which is super unlikely.

It's got to be something related to the rectifier, backbox wiring/connectors, or the playfield.

When I swapped the strobe wires, the upper playfield "FUTURE" lamps all were lit solid. That told me it's not the playfield, so let's rule that out, which leaves us with backbox wiring, connectors, rectifier. Am I missing any other possibilities?

One other thing: When all these blinking lamps are replaced with 47s, only the SPA target and upper F T, 2nd U and R blink. Also, the upper U and R seem to stop blinking after about five minutes of operation. That also points to some kind of heat -> latching issue, but I can't find anything in common with those lamps! They are all on AD0, but so are other lamps that aren't blinking (also with incandescents).

Pre-built, but as you know, the soldering job of the transformer to the rectifier is all me.

Wait, I'm getting 8.22vdc. Should I continue this experiment?

First, the waveform you requested:

Screen Shot 2018-10-05 at 9.06.26 AM.png

Is that what you wanted? Next, I performed the exact experiment you asked for. Note that this is with an incandescent light since I pulled off the Siegecraft adapter as well. The light blinks exactly the same way:

Wait! I was measuring the waveform wrong, my ground wasn't connected. Here is the proper waveform:

Screen Shot 2018-10-05 at 9.27.24 AM.png

...and one that fits:

Screen Shot 2018-10-05 at 9.28.41 AM.png

These guys are amazing. I feel awful dominating the topic like this but hopefully this is helpful to others.

Getting warm is an understatement, it just burnt my finger.

LDB J4:

IMG_3174.JPG

MPU J1:

IMG_3175.JPG

AUX J1:

IMG_3177.JPG

@barakandl's rectifier has test pads. Any tips on connecting the TP1 connection without holding it there so I can perform the SCR test?

Nevermind I was able to attach the jumper wire without holding it.

The light stays on SOLID.

Everything reads 0.00. I'm hoping I'm using the right setting, we're talking the ohms (omega) setting, correct? It goes from "searching" to 0.00 when I make each connection.

Yes, zero ohms.

I’m just playing around, but also there is 2kohm resistance between E8 and the TP6 on the MPU, though I assume that’s expected.

Just for giggles, swapped to the Alltek LDB again to see if it made any difference (and it did not). 6.3vdc rail connected, etc. everything disconnected, same test to the rectifier board, same blinking.

It's like the game code is doing this intentionally just to piss me off.

Tried more things. Replaced AD0 line with dedicated, lower gauge wire between MPU and LDB. No impact. Swapped MPUs with same. No impact. Ran power cable to different house circuit I know is clean from RF. No impact. Put on aluminum foil hat. No impact.

I mean, let's look at what's not an exact science: My memory, and foolishness.

My memory: I'm claiming Future Spa didn't flash these lamps before the restoration. I don't REMEMBER them flashing, but maybe all Future Spa lamps have flashed this way and I didn't notice before? Doubt it.

Foolishness: Sometimes it's the stupidest things. If the lamp strobe or address lines are somehow getting impacted by noise, or the decoders impacted by noise, who knows? Just because the wiring is perfect, it doesn't mean there isn't noise. You know, like coming from the solenoid board (oh, first thing I did was unplug that sound board).

What is an exact science? What we actually know.

- We know that once we changed all the lower FUTURE SPA lamps to incandescents, they stopped blinking, why? Maybe because draw is higher?

- We know that when we swapped strobe lines, lamps that blinked in the past stopped blinking. One strobe holds them steady, the other...

- We know with the draw of only ONE SINGLE LAMP on the whole thing, we get blinking. This and the power draw idea are compatible. If there is some threshold related to power draw, people owning Future Spa would only notice it if they went full LEDs and had no older, nasty, power sucking sockets. [Edit: I don't think there are many examples of high end restorations like this of Future Spa.]

- We know the LDB SCR isn't the issue. If it's told to hold, it holds.

- We know the MPU isn't broken.

Things I haven't tried:

- Making a new, dedicated harness just for all the address and strobe lines, and any other necessary J1 pins to light it up. I doubt this makes any difference so I'm hesitating to bother.

- Taking all LEDs of any kind out of this game, putting all 44's, and seeing what happens, until the rectifier board (designed only for 10amps) melts or explodes.

- Building a faraday cage around the MPU and LDB boards.

When I swapped with the Bally MPU and did an o-scope reading on U14 pin 4 and got your results. Lamps still blink. I’m not sure why measuring on the brand new Alltek gives me those readings but the MPU swap pretty much confirms it’s not that, correct?

It's because I was measuring the wrong thing. I swapped back to the Alltek, measure the correct pin, and get this:

Screen Shot 2018-10-05 at 3.22.46 PM (resized).png

Here's another view:

Screen Shot 2018-10-05 at 3.23.59 PM (resized).png

One more:

Screen Shot 2018-10-05 at 3.26.28 PM (resized).png

Ok, @quench forgive I'm I'm new to using this thing.

Here is the first waveform, middle leg. I get very different visuals depending on settings, but I think this is closest to what you're looking for:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 10.31.13 AM.png

Next there is the lower right leg when on or off. Let's start with a view of all of it (on and off, recorded):

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 10.35.13 AM.png

Now let's zoom into when it's on. Here's an "on" spike:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 10.39.39 AM.png

Here's it up closer:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 10.40.05 AM.png

Getting much closer doesn't really reveal much, maybe it's my settings:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 10.38.38 AM.png

Now let's look at off mode:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 10.36.23 AM.png

Just for comparison, here is Q4 bottom right leg, zoomed out:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 10.45.09 AM.png

Here is the on condition zoomed in:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 10.47.28 AM.png

Here is the off condition zoomed in:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 10.48.32 AM.png

Let me know if these are useful.

Ok, I'm playing with this, I think I've got it right. Maybe we're on to something.

I want to duplicate yours, but I can't seem to pull that off. I can't fit 2ms/division time base on a single screen. Are your playfield lamps connected to the LDB when you do the recording? My noise gets lower when I do. Here is middle leg, 5ms/div time base, offset 0v, and .5v/div:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 11.38.01 AM.png

Here is the lower right leg, first at 20ms/division so you can see the on and off pattern:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 11.42.38 AM.png

Now, here's the same zoomed in to the on, 2ms/div:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 11.44.37 AM.png

You can see the off sometimes has two, sometimes one bump. Here's a zoom in of a two:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 11.45.20 AM.png

Here is a zoom in of a one:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 11.45.51 AM.png

Any better?

The strobe line is responsible for sending the high and low to Q14, right?

I haven't tried a clean strobe line yet. I reterminated it once, at least, but maybe noise is somehow getting into that strobe (though I don't know why it would effect some and not others).

This is the gate leg of Q14 during lamp test:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 12.31.20 PM.png

I'm pretty sure that's just "on" state. Here's expanded to 50ms/div to give you the off state:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 12.39.13 PM.png

This is the gate leg of Q11 during lamp test, on state:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 12.33.44 PM.png

Here's expanded to 50ms/div so you can see the off state:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 12.35.04 PM.png

BUT WAIT! EUREKA!!! After I did that Q11 measurement, Q14 stabilized!!! I recorded quickly:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 12.37.57 PM.png

Then, while I was looking at it, it fell back!

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 12.38.37 PM.png

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? Me monkeying with gate legs fixed it for a few seconds!?!?!?

Oh crap, now they are all blinking. What have we done.

Sure enough. Here's Q11 now during on state:

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 12.45.33 PM.png

Blast it all...

Ok switched back to the Alltek (the Bally was "free floating" in my backbox) and we're back to just Q14 doing that. This has got to be cabling/ground.
[Edit: Now it reverted to all blinking again a second time, with the Alltek.]

So now we're back to Q11 working properly in attract, but in lamp test giving me the same wonky pattern as Q14.

Tried replacing Strobe 1 with a dedicated wire, re-terminated between the connectors, no change. Put it back.

New clue: The Alltek board has a test board you can plug into J2 and run some diagnostics.

You set the MPU’s dip switches to accept test mode, then you can move through various tests.

When I did this on lamp diagnostics, I could move through each controlled lamp and light it one by one. Nothing blinked. I could also put it in “SCR” mode and it rolls through each SCR one by one. Nothing blinked. Everything worked properly.

I will check them, there are two of these (I believe a 9 and possibly a 14 or 20). I don’t believe the colors/positions are documented anywhere, so my best course is to check that colors continue through the connectors. If anyone can find it documented let me know.

To everyone who has been following along, my thanks and also my apologies for hijacking the topic so long.

For those interested in continuing to follow, we will keep hunting in our restoration thread, here:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/future-spa-father-and-sons-second-restoration

I will return here and post the solution once we find it.

Thanks! Yes, I’ll be going through mine later, just seemed to miss the plug connectors for some reason.

For anyone curious about the troubleshooting we were doing to solve my problem, the problem is now solved.

It was my solar panels/inverters on my house. Before the teardown, that system was shutdown for maintenance, and there was no problems with my lamps latching on the lower addresses.

While the game was being restored, the inverter/solar panel set up was repaired and completed, and inverters re-activated.

After the game was restored, my AC power in the house had inverter noise. It turns out that noise was interfering with the zero crossing detector just for the lower addressed lamps.

Turning off the house inverter resulted in the lamps not flickering.

File this one under weird...but thought I should close the loop on this one.

You can have solar. Some inverters make electrical noise. Mine is unusually bad for nerdy reasons. If you experience some lamps flashing where they shouldn’t, it could be that. You can sometimes fix the inverter setup to make less noise, or, you can filter the noise, or use noise suppressing things at the game like isolating transformers or ferrite chokes.

Also remember this is my -18 board game, and it probably won’t happen on other models or even other games. It’s a very weird and unique situation.

Cross that bridge when you get to it! I have had solar since 2001. I can’t understand why everyone doesn’t.

Quench continues to be my hero.

I looked forever and couldn’t find them, so I ended up restoring my old ones with retrobright. Beware ebay, I tried one with the title “Bally” and they came with just the lightning bolt.

I'm pretty sure Rick/Planetary would have the rights to make them, right? Anyway, they are increasingly rare to see.

Over the years, I've purchased a number of 4" Kicker 4 ohm speakers and I've been quite happy with them. They may be a bit overkill for the source but at least I know I'm not making it worse.

You're correct that in most cases, Bally was really cheap and used crappy 8 ohm speakers. However, at least on Future Spa and similar generation, the amps in the sound board were actually specified to work with 4 ohm. I've been running 4 ohm with no problems.

The only 8 ohm 4" speakers you can get are basically designed to beep in a microwave.

[Edit: To answer your question, they do not under or over power your speaker. You do have greater latitude to adjust the pot, as designed, instead of blowing on it and it being too loud or soft.]

Just one word of advice here: Keep an eye on your cables. There should be plenty of slack on them as you tip the backbox, but if there isn't for some reason (something is caught), just make sure it's all taken care of so you don't bend any connectors or pins.

I've got a game that has the Alltek lamp driver board and is LEDs. Everything works pretty great. The only complaint my serious player friends have is that when you hit the flippers, the GI will blink.

I understand that the GI is on AC, and you're picking up the voltage drop. This has a new power driver board and solenoid board, I think it's by design.

Can anyone suggest any clever ways to prevent that drop (besides going back to incandescents)?

Perhaps... though I can’t imagine it’s the design intent. I’d love to find a solution. Some way to buffer it somehow.

No, it's a recently restored game with brand new lamp sockets. Also, it's the entire GI. I've seen this on other machines with LEDs. I believe folks in this group advised it was just a function of the transformer and the voltage being drawn from the flippers pushes the voltage down just beneath what the LED bulbs are sensitive to... some suggested the only sure-fire way to solve it was converting the GI to DC, but that seems pretty involved.

It’s a new board there as well. I reterminated every connector. I have heard it’s a common characteristic, it’s just being exaggerated by the LEDs.

This question is less of a “it’s broken help fix it” and more of a “how might you try to change it.”

I’ll post a video.

Here's a video, but as you might expect with trying to capture the LEDs blinking, it doesn't really show up.

Live it is much more pronounced. I personally don't care but I'm just tired of people pointing it out to me so I figured I'd solicit some of this crew's wild and wacky ideas.

Is there no way to use capacitors or some kind of capacitor circuit to solve these kinds of problems?

Hey guys. Here's a question for you.

I'm need to build a test bench. I'd like to be able to swap components out but ultimately drive some 7 segment displays somehow on a backboard.

My thought is, I'd use an Alltek with a test board, some PinScore LED 7-segment displays, power it with a mountable 5V power supply.
The ZC will need a 48V source.

How would you guys recommend I power all this up to fool it into booting?

Thanks!

Are you using a Bally transformer? I'm wondering if I could get away with something lower profile given we're only using HV for zero crossing and the rest is all 5V.

In my case, I only need to be able to test display functionality, but I must say, that is an amazing test system. Wow.

Clever use of the wall, although my display test system needs to be portable as possible. I'll need to think through how to pull that off!

I'd love to hear about your GI after this conversion from AC to DC and how well it works. I feel like it's the only remaining thing that drives me bananas on my Future Spa restore. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/future-spa-father-and-sons-second-restoration

I'm curious the answer to this one. I ended up tumbling and using the original in a restore.