(Topic ID: 85292)

Bally/Stern AS-2518 Club !

By mof

10 years ago


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There are 3,868 posts in this topic. You are on page 50 of 78.
#2451 3 years ago

I will have about 10 of these for sale.

Parts - For Sale
Used, good condition - “For sale: Bally/Stern Solenoid Driver board, AS-2518-22. 100% Guaranteed working, tested in a Bally "Brown Box" SDB Testing Unit. Features new low and high voltage capacitors w...”
2021-03-11
Jarrettsville, MD
77 (Firm)
Archived after: 50 days
Viewed: 167 times
Status: Sold (amount private)

1 week later
#2452 3 years ago

Just picked up a Viking and going through it. The lower right pop bumper doesn't fire during play or in test. It scores during play. I looked at the SDB and see that the associated transistor was replaced at least once already.

I'm not sure of the best way to test coils, I read I could ground the tab of the associated transistor to see if it fires?

Any other thoughts?

Also where can I get a replacement bracket for the drop target assembly? The top one is broken.

20210206_202200 (resized).jpg20210206_202200 (resized).jpg
#2453 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Just picked up a Viking and going through it. The lower right pop bumper doesn't fire during play or in test. It scores during play. I looked at the SDB and see that the associated transistor was replaced at least once already.
I'm not sure of the best way to test coils, I read I could ground the tab of the associated transistor to see if it fires?
Any other thoughts?
Also where can I get a replacement bracket for the drop target assembly? The top one is broken.[quoted image]

Several years ago, pinball resource had those brackets. Try them.

#2454 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Just picked up a Viking and going through it. The lower right pop bumper doesn't fire during play or in test. It scores during play. I looked at the SDB and see that the associated transistor was replaced at least once already.
I'm not sure of the best way to test coils, I read I could ground the tab of the associated transistor to see if it fires?
Any other thoughts?
Also where can I get a replacement bracket for the drop target assembly? The top one is broken.[quoted image]

Grounding the metal tab on the transistor for the coil fires it. So...where should I look next?

#2455 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Grounding the metal tab on the transistor for the coil fires it. So...where should I look next?

That just verified the wiring and coil are good. You now need to test that transistor with the power off.

From the Pinwiki: To test a transistor set the DMM to diode test mode. With the game turned off, place the black lead on the metal tab of the transistor. Probe the two outer legs of the transistor with the red lead. The DMM should read between .4v and .6v (some DMM will show 4xx - 6xx). The center leg should be a dead short to the metal tab. If either outer leg reads anything outside of the .4v to .6v range, the transistor more than likely needs to be replaced. Use a TIP-102 as the replacement transistor.

If a transistor needs to be replaced it is usually a good idea to check / replace the 1n4004 diode and 330 ohm resistor associated with that transistor as these will often burn / short. Also check the diode on the associated coil, it is likely to be shorted as well.

#2456 3 years ago
Quoted from emsrph:

That just verified the wiring and coil are good. You now need to test that transistor with the power off.
From the Pinwiki: To test a transistor set the DMM to diode test mode. With the game turned off, place the black lead on the metal tab of the transistor. Probe the two outer legs of the transistor with the red lead. The DMM should read between .4v and .6v (some DMM will show 4xx - 6xx). The center leg should be a dead short to the metal tab. If either outer leg reads anything outside of the .4v to .6v range, the transistor more than likely needs to be replaced. Use a TIP-102 as the replacement transistor.
If a transistor needs to be replaced it is usually a good idea to check / replace the 1n4004 diode and 330 ohm resistor associated with that transistor as these will often burn / short. Also check the diode on the associated coil, it is likely to be shorted as well.

I tested the transistor and it tested good. Also tested continuity from the switch to the MPU and it is good as well. I reseated the chips on the MPU while it had it out and still no luck. The connector pins all have fresh solder on them.

Since the transistor was replaced before me, I dont know if the diode or the resistor was replaced.

#2457 3 years ago

The resistor tests at 116 ohms (120 ohms). CR12 tested at .119V whereas others of the same tested at .27 V. Is this the culprit?

I replaced CR12 with a 1N4007 diode and it still didn't resolve the problem. It reads .10V.

#2458 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

The resistor tests at 116 ohms (120 ohms). CR12 tested at .119V whereas others of the same tested at .27 V. Is this the culprit?

Not sure on that diode. May have been stressed and in bad shape.

You can check the CA3081 predriver for the transistor. See table in this post for which one corresponds and how to test: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/ca3081-pinout-drive-transistor-number-table#post-5677256

#2459 3 years ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Not sure on that diode. May have been stressed and in bad shape.
You can check the CA3081 predriver for the transistor. See table in this post for which one corresponds and how to test: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/ca3081-pinout-drive-transistor-number-table#post-5677256

That was where i was going next but I wasnt quite sure how to proceed. Thanks for the resource!

I will test it and report back tomorrow.

#2460 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Also where can I get a replacement bracket for the drop target assembly? The top one is broken.

Commonly broken part. It's obsolete and the only place I found that sells a replacement is overseas and $20 each! I made my own with some angle iron and a dremel tool. Here's the link if you are looking to buy it.
They sell left and right hand parts.
https://www.shapeways.com/product/JQGC7NU2N/nut-spring-bracket-p-7939-1-left-modded

#2461 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Also where can I get a replacement bracket for the drop target assembly? The top one is broken.

How needed is that little nub that's busted? The important part is the spring mount. Obviously you want correct unbroken parts in a game but I'm not sure what the little tab would actually do.

#2462 3 years ago
Quoted from slochar:

How needed is that little nub that's busted? The important part is the spring mount. Obviously you want correct unbroken parts in a game but I'm not sure what the little tab would actually do.

The little tab keeps the drop target in the slot. Otherwise, when they pop up, they slip out of the slot and stay up. Bally could have avoided the need by making the drop target arm a couple of mm deeper so it stayed in the slot on its own.

#2463 3 years ago
Quoted from Nokoro:

The little tab keeps the drop target in the slot. Otherwise, when they pop up, they slip out of the slot and stay up. Bally could have avoided the need by making the drop target arm a couple of mm deeper so it stayed in the slot on its own.

This is exactly what happens. When the coil fires to reset the bank, the drop target arm gets pushed out of the slot, and the target gets stuck. No amount of force from the ball will drop it and it has to be reseated by hand. It's the first drop in the bank too, so it essentially makes the inline bank obsolete.

I will try to make one with angle iron and a dremel as suggested.

Going back to the solenoid, any other thoughts beside CA3081? I tested the transistor and got good readings. I've read the link posted, but I'm not quite sure how to test the chip. Any insight would be appreciated.

#2464 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

I'm not quite sure how to test the chip. Any insight would be appreciated.

Identify which transistor circuit in question then probe corresponding pre-driver on the correct chip (either U1,3 or 4).

Or let us know which “Q” and we’ll give you the leg numbers.

Meter on diode setting. Red lead on Base. Black lead separately on Emitter or Collector. Reading should be around 0.6-0.74 ish.

Edit- Downloaded the manual, lower right pop is solenoid no. 12

So test U3
Red lead on pin 10
Black lead on pin 9 and then 15

Compare results to same pins on U1 and U4

#2465 3 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Commonly broken part. It's obsolete and the only place I found that sells a replacement is overseas and $20 each! I made my own with some angle iron and a dremel tool. Here's the link if you are looking to buy it.
They sell left and right hand parts.
https://www.shapeways.com/product/JQGC7NU2N/nut-spring-bracket-p-7939-1-left-modded

I've looked into making this part as well, but it's just not cheap. It would end up being about $12-15 each. The originals were 0.062" thick. I'd make mine out of 0.074" stainless steel, to make it more robust.

#2466 3 years ago
Quoted from djblouw:

I've looked into making this part as well, but it's just not cheap. It would end up being about $12-15 each. The originals were 0.062" thick. I'd make mine out of 0.074" stainless steel, to make it more robust.

I wonder if 3D printing one would work, or if it would be too prone to breaking.

#2467 3 years ago
Quoted from Nokoro:

I wonder if 3D printing one would work, or if it would be too prone to breaking.

The product recommended above is 3D printed- https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-as-2518-club/page/50#post-6122851

#2468 3 years ago

Ha! Funny. I didn’t even look.

FatPanda If you get in a bind, I just got a 3D printer a couple weeks ago and have been learning to use it along with some CAD programs. I could make you a bracket free of charge if you can’t find one on your own or make one out of metal easily.

#2469 3 years ago

Just read the link in more detail. He 3D prints in metal, which I can’t do, and claims plastic isn’t strong enough.

#2470 3 years ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Identify which transistor circuit in question then probe corresponding pre-driver on the correct chip (either U1,3 or 4).
Or let us know which “Q” and we’ll give you the leg numbers.
Meter on diode setting. Red lead on Base. Black lead separately on Emitter or Collector. Reading should be around 0.6-0.74 ish.
Edit- Downloaded the manual, lower right pop is solenoid no. 12
So test U3
Red lead on pin 10
Black lead on pin 9 and then 15
Compare results to same pins on U1 and U4

So based on this, U3 reads .139 on both pin 9 and 15

U1 reads .139 on pin 9 and .141 on pin 15

U4 reads .672 on pin 9 and .140 on pin 15

Its obvious that U4 is the odd duck here. What does it mean?

Also, it's a Stern SDU-100 if that makes any difference.

#2471 3 years ago
Quoted from Nokoro:

Ha! Funny. I didn’t even look.
fatpanda If you get in a bind, I just got a 3D printer a couple weeks ago and have been learning to use it along with some CAD programs. I could make you a bracket free of charge if you can’t find one on your own or make one out of metal easily.

I appreciate the offer! But as you said, its printed in metal and not plastic. PBR does have them, so I'll probably just get it from there.

#2472 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

I appreciate the offer! But as you said, its printed in metal and not plastic. PBR does have them, so I'll probably just get it from there.

If I ever need another, I might try printing one. I bet I could reinforce it enough that it would hold. Anyway, glad you found an actual one at PBR. Order a few!

#2473 3 years ago

I think resistor R30 is dead. It should read 330 ohms but only reads 1.3 ohms, whereas the others read .301 Kohms. I don't have any 330 ohm resistors on-hand so will have to order some. Any thoughts?

I've got 470 ohm resistors on-hand. Could I twist one on to test it or would that be a bad idea?

#2474 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

So based on this, U3 reads .139 on both pin 9 and 15
U1 reads .139 on pin 9 and .141 on pin 15
U4 reads .672 on pin 9 and .140 on pin 15
Its obvious that U4 is the odd duck here. What does it mean?
Also, it's a Stern SDU-100 if that makes any difference.

The only value that is right is the 0.672

I don’t have a solenoid driver in front of me but maybe the chip in the circuit gives a different reading.

I tested a 2n4401 and get 0.6x each reading base/collector and base/emitter. You can spot check other transistors on the chip per the diagram.

Is R30 in the Q12 circuit?

Might be time to page an expert...

E4CFB917-0C9B-43CE-AD13-F9EE5E23539B (resized).pngE4CFB917-0C9B-43CE-AD13-F9EE5E23539B (resized).png
#2475 3 years ago
Quoted from emsrph:

The only value that is right is the 0.672
I don’t have a solenoid driver in front of me but maybe the chip in the circuit gives a different reading.
I tested a 2n4401 and get 0.6x each reading base/collector and base/emitter. You can spot check other transistors on the chip per the diagram.
Is R30 in the Q12 circuit?
Might be time to page an expert...[quoted image]

Yes I was testing the same pins based on that picture, unless I'm seeing it wrong. R30 is in the Q12 circuit according to the schematic, again, unless I'm reading it wrong.

Screenshot_20210207-155749_Drive (resized).jpgScreenshot_20210207-155749_Drive (resized).jpg
#2476 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Yes I was testing the same pins based on that picture, unless I'm seeing it wrong. R30 is in the Q12 circuit according to the schematic, again, unless I'm reading it wrong.
[quoted image]

You are correct. That R30 resistor is involved there and will need replaced.

Not sure about using a different value. All components diode, resistor, capacitor, drive transistor (if tests bad), diode on coil should all be replaced at same time or may blow again.

Maybe someone will chime in with other tests if they feel the issue may be more complicated and /or check things further upstream in U2?

#2477 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

PBR does have them, so I'll probably just get it from there.

Wow...that's good to know. They didn't have them when I checked last year. I may stock up! How much are they?

#2478 3 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Wow...that's good to know. They didn't have them when I checked last year. I may stock up! How much are they?

They're around $10 each. Apparently there's a left side and right side.

#2479 3 years ago
Quoted from emsrph:

You are correct. That R30 resistor is involved there and will need replaced.
Not sure about using a different value. All components diode, resistor, capacitor, drive transistor (if tests bad), diode on coil should all be replaced at same time or may blow again.
Maybe someone will chime in with other tests if they feel the issue may be more complicated and /or check things further upstream in U2?

I ordered new resistors, the only thing that I wouldnt have are the capacitors. I have everything else on-hand (but the handful of things that I tested, test good). I could potentially replace everything in one shot if I ordered new capacitors?

#2480 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

I ordered new resistors, the only thing that I wouldnt have are the capacitors. I have everything else on-hand (but the handful of things that I tested, test good). I could potentially replace everything in one shot if I ordered new capacitors?

If you already placed your parts order there is possibly an unused solenoid circuit on the board you could borrow a capacitor from. Does Viking use all the available solenoids?

Edit- per manual, one spare circuit Q19

FYI- thread with similar problem same Q12 so testing pin numbers will be the same https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/harlem-globetrotters-globe-saucer-solenoid-not-firing#post-5870817

#2481 3 years ago
Quoted from emsrph:

If you already placed your parts order there is possibly an unused solenoid circuit on the board you could borrow a capacitor from. Does Viking use all the available solenoids?
Edit- per manual, one spare circuit Q19
FYI- thread with similar problem same Q12 so testing pin numbers will be the same https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/harlem-globetrotters-globe-saucer-solenoid-not-firing#post-5870817

I'll take a look at that post. I ordered from Ebay so I can easily place another order if I need to, but I have no problems scavenging unused parts either!

#2482 3 years ago

Ok, so his solution from that thread was to replace the pre-driver transistor, driver, transistor, and diode and it resolved his problem. So that means Q12, CR12 and the diode on the coil?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/harlem-globetrotters-globe-saucer-solenoid-not-firing#post-6004062

"Didn't want to leave this post hanging! Replaced the pre driver transistor, driver transistor, and diode in circuit all at once and got it firing. Replacing one at a time seemed to just cause more problems, but HG is good to go now"

Screenshot_20210207-155749_Drive (resized).jpgScreenshot_20210207-155749_Drive (resized).jpg
#2483 3 years ago

He replaced U3 (the predriver), Q12 (driver), CR12 (diode in circuit), diode on coil. You also have a known spent resistor (R30).

#2484 3 years ago
Quoted from emsrph:

He replaced U3 (the predriver), Q12 (driver), CR12 (diode in circuit), diode on coil. You also have a known spent resistor (R30).

Strange thing about the resistor is that when I took it off of the board and tested it, it tested good. I've ordered new resistors and will replace it anyway. I will have to order a new U3.

#2485 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Also, it's a Stern SDU-100 if that makes any difference.

The difference is the Stern solenoid driver boards have the CA3081 chips upside down and your readings reflect this. You need to redo these measurements on the correct pins. i.e. pin 1 is bottom right corner not top left like Bally.

Quoted from FatPanda:

I think resistor R30 is dead. It should read 330 ohms but only reads 1.3 ohms

1.3 ohms is effectively a short circuit. Uncommon for resistors to fail in this way, usually (but not always) they go more towards open circuit. I would suspect the low resistance reading being affected by something else. Unsolder one leg of R30 and lift it out of circuit. Remeasure its resistance to verify if it's good or bad.

#2486 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

The difference is the Stern solenoid driver boards have the CA3081 chips upside down and your readings reflect this. You need to redo these measurements on the correct pins. i.e. pin 1 is bottom right corner not top left like Bally.

1.3 ohms is effectively a short circuit. Uncommon for resistors to fail in this way, usually (but not always) they go more towards open circuit. I would suspect the low resistance reading being affected by something else. Unsolder one leg of R30 and lift it out of circuit. Remeasure its resistance to verify if it's good or bad.

I will check it with the chip "upside down." I just ordered a CA3081, so if it tests ok, then I will have one on-hand I guess.

I took R30 out to swap it with a known working (left pop bumper) and when it was out, it tested at 330 ohms or so, which was why I though it was strange. Swapping in the known good resistor didn't help, and that resistor also read funny (read low) in-circuit.

#2487 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

I took R30 out to swap it with a known working (left pop bumper) and when it was out, it tested at 330 ohms or so

R30 is directly across the base and emitter pins of the Q12 transistor. Note, this should have shown up as a bad reading when you were testing Q12.

Disconnect the J5 connector from the solenoid driver board so we don't lock any coils on during the following test.
Measure the voltage on the banded side of diode CR12 while you ground pin 10 (2nd top left pin) of U3. Then measure the voltage on the non-banded side of CR12 while grounding U3 pin 10. You should measure about 1.4 volts and then 2.1 volts respectively.

#2488 3 years ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Might be time to page an expert...

Quench for the win

#2489 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

The difference is the Stern solenoid driver boards have the CA3081 chips upside down and your readings reflect this. You need to redo these measurements on the correct pins. i.e. pin 1 is bottom right corner not top left like Bally

Ok, did it with the chip "upside down" and both pins 9 and 15 read .72. U1 and U4 read the same.

#2490 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

R30 is directly across the base and emitter pins of the Q12 transistor. Note, this should have shown up as a bad reading when you were testing Q12.
Disconnect the J5 connector from the solenoid driver board so we don't lock any coils on during the following test.
Measure the voltage on the banded side of diode CR12 while you ground pin 10 (2nd top left pin) of U3. Then measure the voltage on the non-banded side of CR12 while grounding U3 pin 10. You should measure about 1.4 volts and then 2.1 volts respectively.

Ok here's my setup. I have a feeling that I'm not doing what you're asking? For the purposes of taking pictures, I'm doing one thing at a time, but to test, I'm doing both.

Based on these pics, there are no changes when I ground pin 10 on U3. The diode reads .119V both ways with the black and red leads.

20210209_164417 (resized).jpg20210209_164417 (resized).jpg20210209_164435 (resized).jpg20210209_164435 (resized).jpg

#2491 3 years ago

as per a few posts above the drop target brackets are printed in metal and very strong, my GB target brackets take a pounding. The original metal brackets crack and break so a plastic one will not hold. Here is the range of reproduction parts

https://www.shapeways.com/marketplace?q=swinksreproduction&sort=newest

#2492 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Ok, did it with the chip "upside down" and both pins 9 and 15 read .72. U1 and U4 read the same.

With those readings I suspect your pre-driver chip is good but Q12 and diodes are blown.

For your voltage testing, I think it’s black lead on ground and red lead on the diode (two readings- banded and non-banded separately).

#2493 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

I have a feeling that I'm not doing what you're asking?

You're close, but connect the black meter probe to ground for both tests and measure the voltage on each side of the CR12 diode with the red meter probe.

#2494 3 years ago

Is it possible for power or something else that contributes to the burning out of bulbs or is this just coincidence?

I've got three SS Bally pins (EBD, Mata Hari, and Black Jack). In these three pins, I run LEDs for the inserts and incandescents for GI. In the last 6 months, I've changed 19 burned out GI bulbs in the Black Jack (44's). I run the same 44's in Mata Hari and in the same time span, I've replaced 1 bulb. In the EBD (555's), I've replaced none.

The Mata Hari and the EBD both are using Alltek Lamp Boards. The Black Jack is using the original Bally Lamp Board with anti-flicker PCBs on the three lamp connectors. All the bulbs are the EiKO's from Marco's. I was thinking of swapping lamp boards between the Mata Hari and Black Jack and then see if the Mata Hari bulbs start going out at a higher rate.

Not a huge issue, but I found it curious that my Black Jack goes through bulbs at a much, much higher rate than the other two pins.

#2495 3 years ago
Quoted from Mathazar:

All the bulbs are the EiKO's from Marco's.

Newer bulbs suck they burn out quickly - 10-20% failure rate out of the box. I save old bulbs from old playfields and as long as the bulb isn't silvered, it's fine for another 40 years.

#2496 3 years ago

Ok, here's my "new" setup. Pin 10 is grounded with the yellow wire. Black lead has an alligator clip to ground. J5 disconnected. Machine is plugged in and off.

Red lead on non-banded side of CR12= .119V
Red lead on banded side of CR12 = .000V

20210210_155618 (resized).jpg20210210_155618 (resized).jpg
#2497 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Ok, here's my "new" setup. Pin 10 is grounded with the yellow wire. Black lead has an alligator clip to ground. J5 disconnected. Machine is plugged in and off.

Red lead on non-banded side of CR12= .119V
Red lead on banded side of CR12 = .000V

When you ground pin 10 of U3, it releases pin 9 which should then go up in voltage thanks to the pull-up resistor at R29 that's connected to 5 volts.
But this isn't happening. Sure you're making good contact of that yellow wire on pin 10?

Please do the same with the yellow wire grounding pin 10 and the black meter lead also on ground, but this time measure the voltage with the red meter lead on each side of resistor R29 which is just above CR12. One side of R29 (probably top leg) should read 5 volts, the other leg should read around 2.1 volts.

Next, while pin 10 is still grounded, measure the voltage at pin 9 of U3. Should read 2.1 volts.
Lastly take the ground jumper off U3 pin 10 and measure the voltage on pin 10. Should read 0.85 volts.

#2498 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

When you ground pin 10 of U3, it releases pin 9 which should then go up in voltage thanks to the pull-up resistor at R29 that's connected to 5 volts.
But this isn't happening. Sure you're making good contact of that yellow wire on pin 10?
Please do the same with the yellow wire grounding pin 10 and the black meter lead also on ground, but this time measure the voltage with the red meter lead on each side of resistor R29 which is just above CR12. One side of R29 (probably top leg) should read 5 volts, the other leg should read around 2.1 volts.
Next, while pin 10 is still grounded, measure the voltage at pin 9 of U3. Should read 2.1 volts.
Lastly take the ground jumper off U3 pin 10 and measure the voltage on pin 10. Should read 0.85 volts.

DMM is in diode mode. The yellow wire is grounded and black meter lead is grounded.

I am confirming that the yellow wire is firmly pressing against pin 10 (upper left second from the top) of U3.

The red lead on the top leg of R29 reads .052V
The bottom leg reads .119V

Pin 9 of U3 reads .119V with pin 10 grounded.

The voltage at pin 10 reads .722V without the ground jumper.

I feel like I'm still not doing something right? I've tried to explain my method clearly in case I'm doing something incorrectly.

#2499 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

I feel like I'm still not doing something right?

Umm, I probably should have mentioned in the beginning to set your multi-meter to DC voltage and to perform these voltage measurements with the machine powered ON.

Please redo the diode CR12 and resistor R29 voltage measurements accordingly.

#2500 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Umm, I probably should have mentioned in the beginning to set your multi-meter to DC voltage and to perform these voltage measurements with the machine powered ON.
Please redo the diode CR12 and resistor R29 voltage measurements accordingly.

Figures I would do something like this! I will perform the checks again.

I will start a new thread also, so as to not clog this thread up with my specific problem and will repost it here for anyone that wants to follow.

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