Hi all. I am having issues with the MPU. its in a bally MR & Mrs pacman. The MPU is as-2518-35, I did Leon’s test rom and it seems fine. I rebuilt the solenoid board as well. I tested voltages on all boards, and all appear to be in spec. It appears to be at the end of the boot process and fails. I’ll attach 2 vids of what’s its doing. Any help is appreciated. I also have checked all of the tilts and they are all open and I cut the cap lead at the tilt bulb.
Of course the Pinwiki talks about the flashes and the boot process:
https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Bally/Stern#MPU_boot_issues
From the video it looks like you didn't get a 'Seventh Flash'.
This is usually due to missing +43V power due to connections on the power supply board, the fuse for the +43V, bad connectors (everywhere) but read through the wiki's section on this.
Let us know what you find!
I'm getting the 7 flashes. I might not got the flicker in the video but between the first and second flash there is a longer pause.
Oops, yeah.
Ok, the theory of operation is available in this manual:
https://arcarc.xmission.com/Pinball/PDF%20Pinball%20Misc/Bally%20Theory%20of%20Operation.pdf
I'm looking at PDF page 7 and beyond.
People who have had '7 flashes and stop' seem to have had a variety of solutions:
Bad Ram Chip
Bad sockets to PIA
Broken (cracked) solder connections to Eprom 1 and 2.
One poster said "VMA (valid memory address) signal pin 5 on the 6800 was not pulsing after the 7th LED flash" when the board was frozen due to bad connections to the Eproms) So you might check that signal for hints about what isn't working.
Finally, some people report that while the game doesn't go into attract mode the test switch will work, allowing tests. Does your board do that?
5v is always suspect when you have strange CPU operation (or non-operation). Measure the voltages at the chip.
For about a decade now I haven't looked too deeply at the CPU boards on these games... it's usually time-efficient to just buy the Alltek board. So I unfortunately don't have any further advice. I'm sure others here can help you with further troubleshooting.
Good luck!
Quoted from PinRetail:Oops, yeah.
Ok, the theory of operation is available in this manual:
https://arcarc.xmission.com/Pinball/PDF%20Pinball%20Misc/Bally%20Theory%20of%20Operation.pdf
I'm looking at PDF page 7 and beyond.
People who have had '7 flashes and stop' seem to have had a variety of solutions:
Bad Ram Chip
Bad sockets to PIA
Broken (cracked) solder connections to Eprom 1 and 2.
One poster said "VMA (valid memory address) signal pin 5 on the 6800 was not pulsing after the 7th LED flash" when the board was frozen due to bad connections to the Eproms) So you might check that signal for hints about what isn't working.
Finally, some people report that while the game doesn't go into attract mode the test switch will work, allowing tests. Does your board do that?
5v is always suspect when you have strange CPU operation (or non-operation). Measure the voltages at the chip.
For about a decade now I haven't looked too deeply at the CPU boards on these games... it's usually time-efficient to just buy the Alltek board. So I unfortunately don't have any further advice. I'm sure others here can help you with further troubleshooting.
Good luck!
Thanks, I'll look into the signals some more.
I did try to get it to the tests but that didn't work. I tried to ground pin 1 on J3 I think it was and still nothing. I should have added too that I'm getting no voltages on the coils. I have the voltage on the boards test points but that's it. I need to track that down also.
Thanks for the help!
I see all 7 flashes, flash-pause-6 more flashes. Have to think the MPU is booting.
On a Bally multiball game, the MPU will flash 7 times but the game will not boot unless it detects all the balls it's supposed to have after the 7th flash. However I'm pretty sure MMPM is not a multiball game so that theory would not apply unless I'm wrong about multiball.
I notice some gibberish on the Pac matrix, there are also some special considerations for the extra playfield display.
Try disconnecting the playfield from the game, switches, power, and the display and see if the game boots to the point the backbox displays come on.
For the benefit of others here, the O.P Troyster42 was discussing this problem in the Mr and Mrs PacMan club thread but it became obvious at the end the MPU board was crashing so I asked him to post a tech support thread here.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-mr-and-mrs-pacman-wants-al-to-play/page/5#post-7597305
On a normally working system, after the MPU board successfully boots the LED will remain dim indicating normal program execution.
@troyster42's video shows after the 7th LED flash, the LED flickers and turns off indicating the MPU board has crashed.
My vague memory of this issue tells me it's a problem with the 6810 RAM chip at U7 on the MPU board. Troyster42 I don't suppose you have a spare 6810 RAM chip? If not, the Squawk and Talk sound board in the game should have one which you can borrow from. The MPU board doesn't need the sound board connected to boot-up properly.
Quoted from Quench:For the benefit of others here, the O.P Troyster42 was discussing this problem in the Mr and Mrs PacMan club thread but it became obvious at the end the MPU board was crashing so I asked him to post a tech support thread here.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-mr-and-mrs-pacman-wants-al-to-play/page/5#post-7597305
On a normally working system, after the MPU board successfully boots the LED will remain dim indicating normal program execution.
Troyster42's video shows after the 7th LED flash, the LED flickers and turns off indicating the MPU board has crashed.
My vague memory of this issue tells me it's a problem with the 6810 RAM chip at U7 on the MPU board. Troyster42 I don't suppose you have a spare 6810 RAM chip? If not, the Squawk and Talk sound board in the game should have one which you can borrow from. The MPU board doesn't need the sound board connected to boot-up properly.
Sorry, been busy with non pinball stuff. I did swap the 6810 ram from the squawk and talk board and nothing changed. I did disconnect the play field yet but I did disconnect the maze and still nothing changed. I hope to look more into this tonight
Have you got the original 5101 RAM chip for U8 you could plug in and try?
Can you post a clear picture showing the lower left corner of the MPU board and also clear pictures around MPU U8 where the NVRAM chip is?
Do you have access to a logic probe or maybe oscilloscope?
Quoted from Quench:Have you got the original 5101 RAM chip for U8 you could plug in and try?
Can you post a clear picture showing the lower left corner of the MPU board and also clear pictures around MPU U8 where the NVRAM chip is?
Do you have access to a logic probe or maybe oscilloscope?
I know I have the original 5101 and some Chinese knock offs from ali. I thought I replaced it with the orginal 5101 but there was nothing different. I'll get pics later today of the MPU I do have a logic probe, love to have an O scope but not yet.
I guess side topic I have another non testes mpu that has the lower cap gone. I think its C36? I looked and not sure of a replacement but thats down the road
Quoted from Troyster42:I thought I replaced it with the orginal 5101 but there was nothing different.
Confirm if you can.
Quoted from Troyster42:I do have a logic probe
What activity if any are you seeing on:
pin 40 of U11 (Display interrupt generator)
pin 18 of U10 (Zero Crossing interrupt generator)
pin 4 of U9 (Interrupt request)
After the game passes boot-up, it transitions to attract mode and enables interrupts. It's around that time that your board is crashing.
Quoted from Troyster42:I have another non testes mpu that has the lower cap gone. I think its C36?
There's many capacitors on the board that are not *important* for function. C36 is one of them - if the board is ROM jumpered similarly or you're able to change it give the board a go.
So I finally got the time to check some things With the board and chips as is I am getting the following
Pin 40 U 11 Pulsing fast probe is saying High
Pin 18 U 10 Pulsing fast probe saying low
Pin 4 u9 Lo.
I put the original 5101 chip in and I am getting the same results.
I looked at the other MPU and the jumpers are diferent so I need to look at them and change before I try and test that one.
Quoted from Troyster42:Pin 4 u9 Lo.
Is pin 4 of U9 stuck low from the moment you power-up or does it get stuck low after the last LED flash?
It's the difference between being the cause of the problem and a symptom of the problem.
When this signal goes low it means either the U10 or U11 chip wants to interrupt the U9 CPU with some service that needs attention. This signal should then go high once the CPU essentially acknowledges it. Then some milliseconds this repeats.
Quoted from Quench:Is pin 4 of U9 stuck low from the moment you power-up or does it get stuck low after the last LED flash?
It's the difference between being the cause of the problem and a symptom of the problem.
When this signal goes low it means either the U10 or U11 chip wants to interrupt the U9 CPU with some service that needs attention. This signal should then go high once the CPU essentially acknowledges it. Then some milliseconds this repeats.
I finally got the time to test the pin 4 on U9 again. From power up. It starts hi until flash 4 it then goes low and stays there until flash 6 it then goes hi for a fraction of a second and goes low, It then goes Hi on flash 7 for that same fraction of a second and then goes low again. I looked at the what the flashes mean could it be a bad U10? since it stays low until it checks u11? I think I'll swap a chip from the untested board for U10 and see if it changes.
Okay I swapped the U10 chip from the untested board and I got 3 flashes, bad chip? I then went and swapped the original chips( u10 To u11 and I'm still getting the same readings.
So the PIAs are generating interrupts and the CPU board is acknowledging them during the power on test.
Next thing to check is the ROMs. I know they are passing the ROM test, but it's not foolproof.
Can you either jumper the spare MPU board for these ROMs and plug them into that board to see what happens.
Alternatively, I presume you have an EPROM programmer. Can you read those EPROMs and tell me what the CRC32 hash for them is? The CRC32 will allow me to cross reference them.
I pulled the eproms. Actually when I got the boards they were missing them so I burned new ones with 2732 chips. The U2 chip is 0005CEFC U6 is 00071EFC. I got the images from IPDB. Since I had them out I verified them again and they passed. I did have an issue and found a thread about it too. When I was bench testing the roms would pass but when I put it in the game they would fail. I reburned them with other chips at a slower speed and that's where I am now.
Quoted from Troyster42:I pulled the eproms. Actually when I got the boards they were missing them so I burned new ones with 2732 chips. The U2 chip is 0005CEFC U6 is 00071EFC. I got the images from IPDB. Since I had them out I verified them again and they passed. I did have an issue and found a thread about it too. When I was bench testing the roms would pass but when I put it in the game they would fail. I reburned them with other chips at a slower speed and that's where I am now.
Quoted from Troyster42:I did Leon’s test rom and it seems fine.
This statement in your OP is a key symptom. It points to some rom sockets being ok and others not being ok.
If two sets of confirmed eproms have similar symptoms, it is more likely the ROM sockets.
Have you replaced any ROM sockets or are they all original?
What brand of sockets are we working with here?
-If they are original or "RN" type, they are total crap. If you need to replace rom sockets, you should also just go ahead and replace the 5101 socket if that has not already been done.
Number one killer of Bally/Stern MPUs is ALWAYS junk/corroded rom and ram sockets, followed closely by corroded board traces. Even if you have ZERO traces of corrosion, the sockets Bally used at the factory were designed to last a couple years. Thses days, sometimes they work and the next minute they don't. They are all crap and should be replaced, even if they currently work.
Quoted from Troyster42:The U2 chip is 0005CEFC U6 is 00071EFC.
Checksums are correct, but your programmer is seeing them well.
Quoted from Troyster42:When I was bench testing the roms would pass but when I put it in the game they would fail. I reburned them with other chips at a slower speed and that's where I am now.
Did you also program them multiple times *without erasing* between burns?
I presume your programmer is a GQ-4X ?
And also are your EPROMs ST brand?
If you plug this MPU board onto your bench power-supply, does the LED switch off after the 7th flash like it's doing in game or does the LED stay dim?
If the LED switches off, then do the following.
Perform continuity tests of all the address lines going to both the U7 RAM and the U8 NVRAM. An open address line signal on the RAM chips will still result in them passing memory tests, but once the game kicks into attract mode memory corruption will happen.
Thanks to all. I think I'm going to get a MPU from Weebly. Just to hopefully see if its the mpu or something else. I'll still continue to trouble shoot these boards. Its just me to try and pinpoint the issue. If the new board works mine have issues, if not there is something else going on. I'll update later.
Just as a reply I haven't replaced any sockets yet thet look okay and there has been no flaky issues.
Quoted from Quench:Checksums are correct, but your programmer is seeing them well.
Did you also program them multiple times *without erasing* between burns?
I presume your programmer is a GQ-4X ?
And also are your EPROMs ST brand?
If you plug this MPU board onto your bench power-supply, does the LED switch off after the 7th flash like it's doing in game or does the LED stay dim?
If the LED switches off, then do the following.
Perform continuity tests of all the address lines going to both the U7 RAM and the U8 NVRAM. An open address line signal on the RAM chips will still result in them passing memory tests, but once the game kicks i wento attract mode memory corruption will happen.
.
I erased the ROMs between burning. I do have the GQ-4X I'm not sure what you mean about ST brand. I did a double burn with them at a slower spread. I checked before hand to make sure they were blank. I didn't do the trick to make it think the solenoid voltage was there . Still looking into this. I'm hoping a new board will let me know if it's the board or something else.
Quoted from Troyster42:I'm not sure what you mean about ST brand.
See the ST brand logo on the EPROM below? Are those the EPROMs you have?
You're not interested in jumpering the spare MPU board you have for the EPROMs you've programmed?
Quoted from Troyster42:That looks like what I'm using I'll post a pic too.
That EPROM is a Chinese remark. Most have been good in my experience, but I use better programmers with long program times.
Quoted from Quench:That EPROM is a Chinese remark. Most have been good in my experience, but I use better programmers with long program times.
Thanks, I think I have some pulls I got a year ago from a guy at Pinfest I just need to get to them.
I did do the jumpers to the untested board and found out that U18 is bad, it has a piece missing on the chip.Its a 4049B, I thought I had something but I don't and started to look where to order. It used to be so nice when GPE was around. I should be getting the new board soon also and will post if that fixes anything.
Quoted from Troyster42:found out that U18 is bad, it has a piece missing on the chip.Its a 4049B
Have a look on ebay.
Quoted from Quench:Have a look on ebay.
Thanks, I have looked there and Amazon, but they are listed with other I don't know it buffered (B) or unbuffered (UB) or anything else would make a difference. Heres a link for ones from Amazon. Most Ebay orders are from Chine and will take weeks. Do you think these would work?
https://www.amazon.com/DBParts-CD4049BE-CD4049-4049BE-CD4049UBE/dp/B07ZR8W39H/ref=pd_lutyp_d_rtpb_sccl_3_3/145-2982578-3811562
Quoted from Troyster42:I don't know it buffered (B) or unbuffered (UB) or anything else would make a difference.
You should get the unbuffered version because U14 is also a 4049 and using a buffered chip there causes problems. Looking at two MPU boards here and both U18 and U14 are UnBuffered.
U14 tends to fail more often.
The part number should have a 'U' in it - i.e. xx4049UBx where x is manufacturer codes that aren't important. i.e.
MC14049UB
CD4049UBE
etc.
I don't live in the US so don't see the price on the Amazon listing plus it's ambiguous. Are they shipping CD4049BE or CD4049UBE?
These are some ebay ones in the US:
ebay.com link: itm
ebay.com link: itm
Quoted from Quench:You should get the unbuffered version because U14 is also a 4049 and using a buffered chip there causes problems. Looking at two MPU boards here and both U18 and U14 are UnBuffered.
U14 tends to fail more often.
The part number should have a 'U' in it - i.e. xx4049UBx where x is manufacturer codes that aren't important. i.e.
MC14049UB
CD4049UBE
etc.
I don't live in the US so don't see the price on the Amazon listing plus it's ambiguous. Are they shipping CD4049BE or CD4049UBE?
These are some ebay ones in the US:
ebay.com link: itm
ebay.com link: itm
I ordered the chip and it should be here Wed. I have the board ready. You said earlier that C36 wasn't needed to boot. I haven't replaced that at this point either.
I did recieve the new board and tried it. It boots ups and I can start a game but the only coils that work are the flippers. Thats another problem, atleast I know theres issues with the orginal MPU and not something else.
no coils working, look under the playfield for a fuse holder with a yellow wire one side and a brown wire the other side, this should be a 1A slow blow fuse.
remove it and test for continuity.
Quoted from Rikoshay:no coils working, look under the playfield for a fuse holder with a yellow wire one side and a brown wire the other side, this should be a 1A slow blow fuse.
remove it and test for continuity.
Thanks. I rechecked fuse and its still good. When I started trying to get it to boot I checked all of the fuses but you never know if something it wrong and it blows one.
Quoted from Troyster42:Thanks. I rechecked fuse and its still good. When I started trying to get it to boot I checked all of the fuses but you never know if something it wrong and it blows one.
I forgot its actually booting with that board. I went in to test the solenoids and the first 4 fired (saucers mainly) then nothing. I'm pretty sure its just a wire that needs resolderd on the chain.
Quoted from Troyster42:I ordered the chip and it should be here Wed. I have the board ready. You said earlier that C36 wasn't needed to boot. I haven't replaced that at this point either.
I did receive the new board and tried it. It boots ups and I can start a game but the only coils that work are the flippers. Thats another problem, at least I know threes issues with the original MPU and not something else.
Chips are here but now I have an other issue with the untested board. It had work before me and for some reason the U18 was replaced but never did a socket. I put a socket there and tested the pins to make sure no loose solder was making a connection. I found pins 7 and 8 are connected some how. My other MPU has no continuity with them so I'm sure its an issue. I used a desolder wick over all of the points and nothing worked. I just cant find the issue, I'll send pics later
I think I'm going backwards with this one. I lost the 6.4 V from the rectifier board in the bottom of the machine. The BR1 is shot. I went an ordered a DIY board from Weebly. In the mean time I'll be looking for wear the the 2 pins are making connection at on the untested board. That board had more work on it before than I thought it did. The one board that fails at the end of the boot process I'm going to hook up the PS on the bench and runs some more checks on it.
Okay seems more backward progress. I installed the new Rectifier board, checked voltages before I hooked it up and all were good. It now blows the high voltage fuse. In the solenoid test only the knocker fires and still no GI.
In lamp test mood both the GI flasher and the Solenoid expander lights flash. I have an untested aux lamp board and swapped it out and still no GI. I also used to get some red lights in the maze but now there's nothing.
I have read different ways to test the SCRs, one is with a DMM one you ground the heat sink on the scr 106 and see if the if the bulb lights. I'll reread them and go from there.
Quoted from Troyster42:I installed the new Rectifier board, checked voltages before I hooked it up and all were good. It now blows the high voltage fuse.
Is it only blowing the HV fuse with J3 connected on the rectifier board or also with it disconnected?
Quoted from Troyster42:In the solenoid test only the knocker fires and still no GI.
Check the 1 amp Slow-Blow fuse under the playfield near the flipper mechs.
Quoted from Troyster42:In lamp test mood both the GI flasher and the Solenoid expander lights flash.
If the G.I. flasher is flashing then the problem is downstream, not on the lamp driver board. You need to look around the Triac that switches the G.I on the power panel next to the rectifier board in the cabinet.
Quoted from Quench:Is it only blowing the HV fuse with J3 connected on the rectifier board or also with it disconnected?
Check the 1 amp Slow-Blow fuse under the playfield near the flipper mechs.
If the G.I. flasher is flashing then the problem is downstream, not on the lamp driver board. You need to look around the Triac that switches the G.I on the power panel next to the rectifier board in the cabinet.
Thanks Quench, I found most of the problem and it was self inflected. When I was soldering the connectors on the rectifier board I got the 2 9 pin plugs backwards, one is male and the other female. I had them in the wrong spot so the connection was wrong. I was hurrying to much on this. I have them in the correct places now and the controlled lights are working, even in the maze. All of the coils are firing in test mode. At first the GI was off I tried this morning and it was on, so it might be a bad some wire but at lease I know what its not now. I haven't tried the high voltage yet but after looking at the schematics I think the wireing was the reason it blew. This is still running the new MPU once its all working I'll go back to the orginal and try and get that working.
An odd thing in the schematics I keep seeing a 10 amp fuse mentioned in the GI line. I don't see any 10 amp fusses anywhere.
Thanks for the help, it feels good to actually make progress with this one.
Quoted from Troyster42:An odd thing in the schematics I keep seeing a 10 amp fuse mentioned in the GI line. I don't see any 10 amp fusses anywhere.
Where are you seeing this fuse in the schematics?
I do see the playfield schematics list two 10 amp fuses but they are for the feature lamps, not G.I.
Quoted from Quench:Where are you seeing this fuse in the schematics?
I do see the playfield schematics list two 10 amp fuses but they are for the feature lamps, not G.I.
I messed up, its was for the Controlled lights. I have the print out from online and when it went to the new page I went with the wrong line. I think its getting the best of me lol. Over the weekend I think I am going to try with the board that was almost booting and check it out again. Thanks for all of the help I'm sure I'll have more posts later.
Okay, I have the machine booting up and only a few minor issues. I tried the sound boards (have 2) I replaced the pots on both and one sounds good the other the sounds are a lot lower than the voice and a strange noise in the background. I have cap kits coming in.
So no back to the original problem with the original mpu. I swapped out the chips that were on the good sound board with it and I'm still getting 7 flashes and fail to boot. I plan on bench testing it again to see if I can track the problem down.
At the end of the Power On Self Test (after the 7th LED flash), the system code then:
Initialises the two 6821 PIA chips
Reads the DIP switches for game config
Clears the memory stored switch matrix state
Switch all lamps, displays and coils off
Enable interrupts
Initialise the game specific state and transition to attract mode.
Until this point:
The U7 RAM and U2 ROM haven't been used much, they can pass their respective tests even though they have issues with address line connectivity.
External interrupts from the two PIA chips were ignored. They will now generate moderate and critical use of the RAM stack in U7.
Quoted from Quench:Perform continuity tests of all the address lines going to both the U7 RAM and the U8 NVRAM. An open address line signal on the RAM chips will still result in them passing memory tests, but once the game kicks into attract mode memory corruption will happen.
Do this ^^^ and also on the U2 chip.
Quoted from Quench:At the end of the Power On Self Test (after the 7th LED flash), the system code then:
Initialises the two 6821 PIA chips
Reads the DIP switches for game config
Clears the memory stored switch matrix state
Switch all lamps, displays and coils off
Enable interrupts
Initialise the game specific state and transition to attract mode.
Until this point:
The U7 RAM and U2 ROM haven't been used much, they can pass their respective tests even though they have issues with address line connectivity.
External interrupts from the two PIA chips were ignored. They will now generate moderate and critical use of the RAM stack in U7.Do this ^^^ and also on the U2 chip.
So I'm finally finished tracing these down. I didn't find anything that was open or seemed out of the ordinary. I haven't got to the test rom yet. I wanted to do this first. This board looks clean and no work has been done besides some jumpers.
So I have the original board back on the bench with the test rom installed. I am getting a steady flash with the led on the board and the led installed from leg 15 on U9. I checked with a logic probe each leg on U10 and U11. With both chips the following legs are pulsing in sync with the leds. Legs 2-17, 19,24, 39.
The rest of the legs are as follows, if its Pulsing its faster than the leds.
U10
Pin 1 Low
Pin 18 high
Pin 20 high
Pin 21-23 pulse
Pin 25-33 pulse
Pin 34 high
Pin 35-36 pulse
Pin 37 high
Pin 38 high
Pin 40 high
U11
Pin 1 Low
Pin 18 low
Pin 20 high
Pin 21-23 pulse
Pin 25-33 pulse
Pin 34 high
Pin 35-36 pulse
Pin 37 high
Pin 38 high
Pin 40 high pulse
I’m not sure why pin 40 on U11 is pulsing that way, its high but very fast pulsing.
I haven't did the jumper to simulate the 43 volts yet but thats next. If there is anything else that should be checked let me know.
Quoted from Troyster42:I’m not sure why pin 40 on U11 is pulsing that way, its high but very fast pulsing
Pin 40 is hooked up to the output of the 555 timer chip at U12. It should be predominately high with low going pulses which it sounds like you're seeing. The question is what frequency is it at. Do you have any frequency counters, maybe as a function of your multi-meter or those cheap Chinese multi device testers?
Quoted from Troyster42:I haven't did the jumper to simulate the 43 volts yet but thats next. If there is anything else that should be checked let me know.
This should get pin 18 of U10 pulsing.
All your other pin results look ok.
I've written code to do comprehensive ROM and RAM tests. I just have to polish something with it and hopefully tomorrow it should be ready. If you want to try it, PM me your email address and I'll send it to you. You'll need to program the code into two 2532 or 2732 chips that will go into U2 and U6.
I jumped the 2 resistors and I'm getting the 7 flashes and pin 18 on U 10 is pulsing. I did notice after the 7th flash it starts to come back on low but it just goes off. I looked at the old video I did and its the same.
My meter does have a frequency test on it but do I put the red lead on the leg and black to ground? But it does seem like you said it predominately high.
Quoted from Troyster42:My meter does have a frequency test on it but do I put the red lead on the leg and black to ground? But it does seem like you said it predominately high.
With the meter in Hz mode, black meter probe on ground and red meter probe on pin 40 of U11. You should read about 420Hz. If not try the red meter probe on pin 3 of U12 (small 8 pin chip next to U11).
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