(Topic ID: 235100)

Bally 6803 Eight Ball Champ Display flicker

By newbieinKC

5 years ago


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  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Skidave
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#1 5 years ago

Yesterday, I suddenly lost all the "flashy" playfield lights. I diagnosed the problem as a bad pin connection on the power supply board. I re-flowed the pins (for a second time-my soldering equipment and skills have improved dramatically since last time I did it) and flashy lights are working solidly again.

However,
Now my displays are all dim and have a flicker. I had turned down the 190VDC (controlled by pot) to about 175VDC because a tutorial I read suggested that it would extend the life of my displays (which are hella-expensive BTW). My first adjustment down over-shot 175VDC and I got a similar flicker until I tuned it in to 175, at which time everything was bright and steady.

I know I should have already replaced the capacitors (especially the 160 uf 250V behemoth that smooths out the 230VDC), but does this sound like it is probably caused by the cap going bad? I bumped the 190VDC back up to 190VDC and it tests out good with my DMM on the test points on the board. I re- re-flowed the connectors that supply 190VDC to the displays.

I tested all of the diodes in the high voltage bridge rectifier circuit and they all test OK. D9, however, which is somehow related to +190VDC circuit, reads about 600mV one way and 1800mV the other. Looking at the wiring diagram, I suppose I could be getting backward voltage through Q1, as they are in parallel. I happen to have a 1N4004 diode, so I will go ahead and replace D9 (or at least remove one end and test it out of circuit). I am not an electrical engineer, but I am working on my ability to read a circuit diagram.

R2 was apparently replaced by a previous owner. I don't get anything near 200k ohms (much lower), so I suspect that might be bad as well.

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#2 5 years ago

Update: D9 is fine. I pulled one leg off the circuit board and it tested OK. In diode mode, I get ~1800mV across the 2N3584 in the reverse direction of the diode with the diode out of circuit.

Any idea how I can test the 2N3584 with a DMM? It is a transistor mounted to a heat-sink. It looks like it has been replaced from the looks of the thermal conductive paste smeared on the heat sink.

When I test R2 for resistance, it starts low and keeps rising slowly and if I reverse the leads, it starts negative and increases from there. Since R2 is in parallel with C2, I think I am really testing the capacitor and not the resistor. Since the resistor is so cheap (and the only thing on the board that looks a little bit haggard), I will replace that along with C2 and the other electrolytic caps. Updated schematic with what tests OK is attached.

Which brings me to my next issue: I have a hard time finding a "pinball" place that has all the solid state parts that I need. Local Shop/Marco/PBR/Great Plains don't have anything close to the 160uf 250V cap (or 220uf for that matter). I found them at Mouser (which seems to have almost everything solid state BTW), so I will probably end up going with them. I would rather support the local shop first and the really good online pinball folks second. It just makes it hard when the local guy seems to buy from the same places I can online and doesn't stock any of the stuff I want.

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#3 5 years ago

I would definitely start by replacing the caps and re-flowing connectors etc first and see where you stand. I believe this cap should work in place of your 160uf/250v, available at GPE: https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CEA-150uF-350V-RMD

The one I listed is a 150uf/350v axial electrolytic cap, which I believe is a suitable replacement. GPE stocks those specifically for early Bally and Stern solid state games. When substituting caps, you can go slightly above or below the capacitance rating, but you always want same voltage rating or higher. In this case, both values are close enough. I'm using those caps on 2 of my games for their HV sections and they originally had 160uf/250v like yours has.

I've found a number of times that the part I'm looking for at GPE won't be in stock there--but they may have a substitute in stock they can recommend. In some cases, the substitute is actually a better choice than the original part. Whatever the case, Ed is a super helpful guy, I'm sure if you have trouble finding a part at his site he'd help you locate it in his inventory.

#4 5 years ago

I know conventional wisdom for many years has been to turn down the display voltage to 'save the displays' - but at the expense of burning off more heat in the HV section. 190 is what the factory says to do, so that's what I do. When the plasma display dies that just tells me to either pull one from my backstock and replace it or to go ahead and get LED displays (previously, when replacement plasma tubes were $6, I'd just replace the tube..... ah, the good old days).

The LED displays keep getting better and better and as long as the design takes into account the increased load on the +5 line, I'm ok with using them. It's nice when they are in different colors as well.

#5 5 years ago
Quoted from slochar:

I know conventional wisdom for many years has been to turn down the display voltage to 'save the displays' - but at the expense of burning off more heat in the HV section. 190 is what the factory says to do, so that's what I do. When the plasma display dies that just tells me to either pull one from my backstock and replace it or to go ahead and get LED displays (previously, when replacement plasma tubes were $6, I'd just replace the tube..... ah, the good old days).
The LED displays keep getting better and better and as long as the design takes into account the increased load on the +5 line, I'm ok with using them. It's nice when they are in different colors as well.

I didn't realize until recently that LEDs were an option for my game. I think I am going to go down that road soon. However, I have a big cap on its way, so I might as well see if that fixes up my HV section. My plasma displays were working OK, but there are a few burn spots and the 6-character credit lamp looked like it was on its last leg before I essentially disabled it by turning off credits and match in the registers. I was dreading having to replace the displays, which is why I turned down the voltage. Makes sense that there is a tradeoff and that being more wear due to heat in my power supply. LEDs seem like an awesome upgrade, especially when my plasmas finally give up the ghost.

Everything on my power control board has been reflowed. At this point, it makes sense to me that either one of the caps or the transistor is acting up. All parts to rebuild the HV section (except for resistors not named R2) are either on-hand or on a FedEx truck heading toward me.

When you say "increased load on +5 line", do you think the current required to run LEDs is way higher than what the plasma control boards consume from +5V normally? I would hate to fry my 6803 control board (which is nearly irreplaceable) to fix a problem with my power module (which has aftermarket options).

#6 5 years ago

Wayne from Pinitech has a very good analysis of the loading put on the 5 volt rail for his LED displays. It's in the thread https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/interest-check-diy-bally-led-displays-using-old-boards/

I use them and have not had any issues with my 5 volts. You can also search by Pinitech displays.

#7 5 years ago
Quoted from newbieinKC:

When you say "increased load on +5 line", do you think the current required to run LEDs is way higher than what the plasma control boards consume from +5V normally? I would hate to fry my 6803 control board (which is nearly irreplaceable) to fix a problem with my power module (which has aftermarket options).

Pretty much any aftermarket LED display is running off of the +5v power supply and will add additional current to the 5v regulator. For this type of display (Bally 6-digit or 7-digit displays) it'll be somewhere between 0.8-1.5A for a set of 5x displays in most cases. The nice thing is, the displays on Bally machines are multiplexed, so theoretically this load the regulator sees is "pulsed" and not a constant load. This is also worse-case with 8's lighting on each display (ie. all segments lit up). I wrote some technical stuff a few years back when I did load testing explaining the numbers more.. took a bit of time to get a good test setup, but gave me something to shoot for in my own display designs as I wanted to "play nice" with the 5v regulator.

The Pinitech UNO / Pinitech TRADITIONAL displays I'm selling light the displays plenty bright IMO, but are more conservative in current consumption than some of the other aftermarket display sets. What I found is "low current design" gets tossed around a lot in marketing & I wanted to ensure I could back it up if I listed that as a feature myself. As such, I chose to limit their max current to something that still lit them plenty bright, while also keeping them lower current than quite a few other aftermarket display sets. At max, displays I'm selling are going to be around 100mA current per display (0.5-0.6A per set). That's less than a number of other displays on the market. I figured why not. No reason to drive the LEDs hard, since at some point driving them with more current doesn't gain you a lot in terms of brightness. Plus, I can feel comfortable advertising them as a "low current design" this way.. even if someone's using 7x displays in $6MM

#8 5 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

As such, I chose to limit their max current to something that still lit them plenty bright, while also keeping them lower current than quite a few other aftermarket display sets.

That's kind of the rub there, "few other aftermarket display sets". All things are not created equal! A lot of times people buy this stuff based on price only and unfortunately, sometimes the cheapest ones are the worst in terms of current draw - and then you see a thread "my game is resetting".... with the usual .... "what have you changed lately"..... "the displays, but that CAN'T be the issue....." etc.

#9 5 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

Pretty much any aftermarket LED display is running off of the +5v power supply and will add additional current to the 5v regulator. For this type of display (Bally 6-digit or 7-digit displays) it'll be somewhere between 0.8-1.5A for a set of 5x displays in most cases. The nice thing is, the displays on Bally machines are multiplexed, so theoretically this load the regulator sees is "pulsed" and not a constant load. This is also worse-case with 8's lighting on each display (ie. all segments lit up). I wrote some technical stuff a few years back when I did load testing explaining the numbers more.. took a bit of time to get a good test setup, but gave me something to shoot for in my own display designs as I wanted to "play nice" with the 5v regulator.
The Pinitech UNO / Pinitech TRADITIONAL displays I'm selling light the displays plenty bright IMO, but are more conservative in current consumption than some of the other aftermarket display sets. What I found is "low current design" gets tossed around a lot in marketing & I wanted to ensure I could back it up if I listed that as a feature myself. As such, I chose to limit their max current to something that still lit them plenty bright, while also keeping them lower current than quite a few other aftermarket display sets. At max, displays I'm selling are going to be around 100mA current per display (0.5-0.6A per set). That's less than a number of other displays on the market. I figured why not. No reason to drive the LEDs hard, since at some point driving them with more current doesn't gain you a lot in terms of brightness. Plus, I can feel comfortable advertising them as a "low current design" this way.. even if someone's using 7x displays in $6MM

Sold. You should see my PayPal in your inbox. Can't wait to get them. My son and I will have a fun time finishing the DIY.

#10 5 years ago
Quoted from newbieinKC:

Sold. You should see my PayPal in your inbox. Can't wait to get them. My son and I will have a fun time finishing the DIY.

Shipped out today! If you have any questions once you get everything, LMK!

I recommend just assembling one display initially & verify it works in your game. That does two things -- first, it gives you something to model the others displays you build off of & once you see it light-up in the machine, it provides A LOT of motivation to finish the entire set

#11 5 years ago

Life is good again with the plasma displays. I re-built the HV section of my power board today, but that wasn't the problem. I had a cold-solder joint left over from the first time I re-flowed the connectors. It took some time (and a couple of power board removal cycles) before I developed problems.

When I get the LED displays working, maybe I will offer them up in the marketplace to help subsidize the upgrade. The 7-digit displays are pretty solid, while the 6-digit has a couple of burn spots. If anybody needs some used 7 digit displays, let me know. I will take video of them before I replace them.

#12 5 years ago

New LED displays are in! (Note that the "flicker" in the first photo is from my camera shutter speed being too fast. There is no perceptible flicker in the displays. I took a pic with all white and ROY G BIV (clockwise from top left: Red, Plasma Orange, Yellow, Green, and Blue).

Sorry if you can't a certain 1980's tune out of your head. Seemed appropriate to show off my 80's era machine.

DIY from the Pinitech kit was straightforward and I was 5/5 for first-try assembly without any rework or defective parts. I wouldn't say it was a simple endeavor, but I enjoyed the labor and improved my soldering technique at the same time. There is somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 solder points for each display.

I am trying to figure out now if I just keep my old displays that work well but who knows for how long...

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#13 5 years ago
Quoted from newbieinKC:

I took a pic with all white and ROY G BIV (clockwise from top left: Red, Plasma Orange, Yellow, Green, and Blue)

Looks nice! Seeing a picture of the multi-color in EBC, I really like it!!

Here's why..

  • It fits a pool theme since in pool you have to take turns & you can associate the color to which player you are.
  • Pool balls are different colors, so it makes sense for the theme there too.
  • Livens up the backglass!

I honestly wasn't sure what I'd think of it but even with the backglass graphics, it doesn't look out of place at all. There's a display in different areas of the scene, making them tie into the backglass graphics as well. Pretty cool idea!

Quoted from newbieinKC:

I am trying to figure out now if I just keep my old displays that work well but who knows for how long...

Definitely get those tossed up in a classified ad if you don't think you'll need them for another game anytime soon! Nice 7-digit displays I'd think $35ea or so as long as they're bright, lighting digits uniformly, no burn marks, etc. Should be able to recoup a good bulk of the cost of the LED set!

#14 5 years ago

If I keep it this way, I am going to pump up the red and green intensity a bit. I left the potentiometers at stock level and it seems like the plasma orange filter results in a little bit lower intensity than the originals. Seems fine to me, but if someone is going to try to match one display they would probably have to play around with the intensity to get a close match. I am sure they will be able to make the match.

I don't care much for the yellow, but I think I will try to add a smoke filter to see if that improves my opinion. I think I like the green best, but there is already too much green in the artwork and inserts on EBC.

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from newbieinKC:

If I keep it this way, I am going to pump up the red and green intensity a bit. I left the potentiometers at stock level and it seems like the plasma orange filter results in a little bit lower intensity than the originals. Seems fine to me, but if someone is going to try to match one display they would probably have to play around with the intensity to get a close match. I am sure they will be able to make the match.

Yep, after I test them to verify millamp current output at high brightness end of the potentiometer range I also test the pot functions correctly and display dims down nicely. Then I just turn the pot horizontal. You'll likely want to turn up brightness depending on color. Easy enough for people to dial it in as they wish I don't get technical with setting any color any specific way.

#16 5 years ago

No offense, but the original HV displays look better.

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from jj44114:

No offense, but the original HV displays look better.

I welcome anyone try an orange digit led display to see what it looks like in-person. You can mix the orange digit led displays with plasma and they don't stick out like many led displays would. I think that's a pretty awesome thing to have achieved. Of course, if you're talking about other colors in games, many people like customizing the look of their games and aren't hung up on orange/plasma for long. Judging things from pictures is also tough, as displays do look a bit different in-person due to camera speeds and multiplexing, as well as lighting conditions, etc.

But, I won't have to speak much about these for long. Enough people are trying them that plenty more feedback and comments on the look of them will come in over time. So no worries, to each their own. Buy what you like.

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from jj44114:

No offense, but the original HV displays look better.

It is actually quite a bit less offensive to me if you just said "I think the original HV displays look better."

#19 5 years ago

Ok, I think they do. And for me, its cheaper to buy used HV displays, fix em and good for ever in home use. Nothing against the LED's but as a kit I spend less time and money fixing up the old HV's. I have them in all my machines. When I cant find original displays non-working for 10 bucks each, I ill buy the led's. They do look good, but I like to keep the games original. I'm not saying the led's are not good, and some day that is all that will be available.

#20 5 years ago

Its all good. I am not concerned about maintaining my machine like it was when built 30 years ago. We have a difference in opinion and I respect yours.

Many people go spend hundreds of dollars modding their pins with the latest LED playfield lamps, powder coated legs, fancy backglass toppers, premium cup holders and a variety of other whoosie-whats-its. I am not in that camp, but I don't mind making a mod that appeals to me. This particular mod allows me to come very, very close in appearance to the original plasmas if I want, but also gives me the ability to change things up. Plus, my son and I got to geek out with the DIY kit for several hours. We really enjoyed assembling the displays, beyond the saving a few bucks versus pre-assembled. The ground outside is frozen solid here (and yesterday I could not ascend my cul-de-sac without ice boots or chains on my vehicle), so going golfing is not exactly an option. It has been legos and board games here for two snow days straight.

All this, and my almost 15-year old son who helps me work on my machine thinks the new displays are "cool".

#21 5 years ago

When I started offering these custom digit displays last year, I fully expected to not be able to satisfy EVERY die-hard plasma display fan. I knew there'd be a certain small percentage that regardless if you 100% matched everything, just KNOWING it was an LED display, they wouldn't like it. My bet is I could go to a pinball show, throw window tint over a plasma glass display (with a different style comma than the others), call it an LED display.. and have some people say it didn't look as nice as the originals because they in-fact believed it was the "new led display". That's what it amounts to for some of that crowd, and I'm okay with that!

My goal was to satisfy the other 90% of the people that have been looking for displays that matched plasma displays better. Personally, I think I'll have achieved that goal, but again, I'll let others be the judge. That's the fun part for me, seeing what other people think as they see these in-person.

#22 5 years ago

I like the new displays. Wasn't sure about the different colors, but I think it works well in this game.

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