(Topic ID: 202341)

SOLVED - Bally -35 MPU PROM/Won't Boot Questions

By wxforecaster

6 years ago


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    #1 6 years ago

    I've got a Bally -35 MPU board I'm trying to repair and use in my Black Pyramid. Based on the jumper settings, the board appears to be wired correctly for a 2532 at U2 and U6 based on http://www.actionpinball.com/tech/35_rom_mod.php

    However, what I see is a 2532 in U2 and windowsless "8212" chip in the U6 slot that contains a printed U6 and bally 1981 copyright. What is this chip? I have no idea what board this came from. Is this chip reusable or do I need to get another 2532 to get this board functional in this game.

    #2 6 years ago

    The "8212" is the date the chip was manufactured - 12th week of 1982.

    Does it look like the below?
    That chip is the Bally "E720-53 U6" system ROM. It's a 9332 PROM configured with the same pinout as a 2532 EPROM.

    The "E720-53 U6" is the correct version of U6 ROM for Black Pyramid.

    E720-53_U6.jpgE720-53_U6.jpg

    #3 6 years ago

    Yes it's exactly that chip (and socketed). So, sweet?! So all I need to do is re-burn U2 and, assuming the rest of the board is sound, I should have a booting game?

    #4 6 years ago

    Is your U2 chip missing/damaged/faulty?
    What failure symptom were you getting from your MPU board?

    #5 6 years ago

    It's completely untested. The game came missing an MPU so the seller sent me an untested spare. The U2 EPROM has a Bally copyright date of 1982 so I know it's not from BP since that was produced 2 years later. Was just going to erase it and burn the ROM I've got. R11 is cooked and I was going to put NVRAM on it. I just wanted to make sure I had good game ROMs before I attempted anything else.

    My question was whether that U6 chip was game-specific?

    #6 6 years ago

    The "E720-53 U6" system ROM was common amongst most Bally-35 games starting from Fathom (1981) onwards.

    The ROM at U2 however is game specific.

    1 week later
    #7 6 years ago

    To Followup, I burned U2 successfully over the existing EPROM. Cut out R11, CR5/CR7 and jumpered them and installed NVRAM at the 5101.

    I've now got a game that is SUPER close to booting. I get an attempt at attract mode with a second or so of light sequencing on the PF and backbox, which repeats indefinitely. LED is solid on. Voltages test good on the reset line, hail line, VMA line, suggesting I'd got a data/bus problem somewhere. Not surprised. There was some minor corrosion at the bottom of the MPU which I have resolved and replaced a few nearby components and tested continuity.

    I don't have an AID2 module like the Bally Repair Manual suggests. I do have a logic probe. Has anyone got Leon's test rom to function in a board that has a 2532 at U2 and the E720-53 PROM at U6???

    #8 6 years ago

    Is the signal that drives the MPU LED pulsing or stuck high? (pin 39 of U11 PIA).
    If it's pulsing, check the frequency out of the 555 timer at pin 3, U12. It should be around 320Hz. If it's excessivly high, the LED will appear to be stuck on and the game will bog down and crash having to service an excessive amount of interrupts before it can finish them.

    #9 6 years ago

    Isn't U12 a display control timer? Regardless, I do not have an oscilloscope.

    Pin 39 of U11 is stuck hi.

    What I did notice is that U9 pin 5 is erratic, given reading solid readings that vary between 2 and 4.5V at power on and/or hitting the test switch. Thinking the U9 6800 chip is bad? Will have to wait on a replacement.

    #10 6 years ago
    Quoted from wxforecaster:

    Isn't U12 a display control timer? Regardless, I do not have an oscilloscope.
    Pin 39 of U11 is stuck hi.
    What I did notice is that U9 pin 5 is erratic, given reading solid readings that vary between 2 and 4.5V at power on and/or hitting the test switch. Thinking the U9 6800 chip is bad? Will have to wait on a replacement.

    Try a new PIA at u11 if its CA2 (p39) port is stuck always high and you think the game is trying to boot up. Corrosion likes to mess up the u11 socket too so keep that in mind.

    For the display interrupt.... how was the corrosion in that area? Did you replace C16 and maybe accidentally put 0.01uF in??? that will slam the CPU with interrupts like quench mentioned above.

    If your DMM can measure frequency or Hz take a measure of the zero crossing (U10 Pin 18, 120Hz). Display interrupt time should be 320-360Hz (u11 p40)

    What you see on the VMA is probably a symptom of the board crashing, not the cause. I'd imagine the CPU is probably OK.

    #11 6 years ago

    U11, pin 39 is stuck hi. Pin 40 starts lo and then pulses.
    U9, pin 39 is lo, pin 40 is high.

    I'll post the other readings shortly. Corrosion was pretty minimal. I suppose I should remove the U11 socket to see as that is close to the battery. There was nothing around U12 at all. Nice and shiny. I do have strong pulse readings on all the address and data bus lines.

    The other abnormality I noticed is at the bottom of the board by the battery. The top part of CR44 measured 0V, but the button part (and TP6 measure just under 1V which seems like an unusual state). The schematics aren't clear as to what TP6 should read.

    FWIW, this is now on the bench, 5V is 5.04, gnd and 12V also applied.

    #12 6 years ago
    Quoted from wxforecaster:

    I'm sorry... and I'm sure this is key. Edited my post above. U9 39 is stuck LO not hi. U40 is hi (and doesn't change even when you power on).
    From other readings, the fluctuation at pin 5 is apparently normal??
    The other abnormality I noticed is at the bottom of the board. The top part of CR4 measured 0V, but the button part (and TP6 measure just under 1V which seems like an unusual state).

    VMA will be low when the board is in /RESET. During the power on self test routine it will be pulsing and changing frequency. Once attract mode hits it will be pretty stable frequency

    VMA problems are most likely going to be a symptom of a problem. Not the cause, so I wouldnt fuss over it as long as it pulses sometimes.

    U9 P39 stuck high or low is a problem. it should be HIGH while the board is in /RESET and then pulsing during the power on self test routine

    Are you sure the board is trying to boot up? Kinda sounds like it may be flat locked up to me. A lot of times you will get about four lamps on the PF turned on when the LDB decoders are parked waiting for something to happen (during the power on self test routine or just locked up).

    #13 6 years ago

    Please re-check my post above. I had U9/U11 crossed up.

    Anyways, I removed and replaced the DIPs for U8 and U11 as there was some corrosion underneath.
    My multimeter does have a Hz setting, but I got 0.000 at both pins above.

    Now I have a new behavior and power up. The LED light briefly flickers (after which TP6 reads ~11V) ). This behavior seems to remain consistent through pressing the test button, but occasionally will light solid.

    I pulled U10 and U11 and while U10 is clearly labeled 6821 with a manufacturer on top, U11 had no discernable marking on top and was labeled 3921X underneath.

    I think I'm going to test this back in the machine, as the flicker should be good??

    #14 6 years ago

    I guess the flicker is a positive sign, but nothing but GI when plugged into the board. When I apply power, I either get a bunch of stuck hi/lo address pins, or they pulse correctly. I'm not convinced at all that the reset circuit is behaving correctly.

    I have pinned out all of the U6/7/8/9/10/11 circuitry and it's perfect. Everything buzzes out where it should and no crossed up signals.

    To accommodate the NVRAM at U8, I took barakandi's advice from another thread, removing R11 and replacing CR5 and CR7 with 0 ohm resistors (jumpers).

    My next step is going to be to replace Q1 and Q5 although they are not in the corroded area. Q2 was, and was replaced along with the LED before I did any other work.

    #15 6 years ago

    do you have a logic probe?

    stick it on p40 of the CPU and power up the game. You should get the green LOW light briefly and when the LED "flickers" the cpu p40 should go high and stay high until power off. If it does that, don't bother replacing the reset transistors, they are fine. Also on the bench switching power supply will not reliably reset the Bally MPU as they are expecting a linear power supply. On a 6800 CPU you can bridge pin 39 and p40 together to force the CPU into /RESET and try to boot up again.

    If P22 (top left) of the 5101 nvram module has +5v and no resistance / voltage drop to the +5v test point you did the R11 out jump over CR5 / CR7 correctly.

    If you are now reliably getting just the flicker on every reset attempt, the ROMs are bad, the ROM sockets are bad, or the jumpers are wrong for the rom type used is the most likely situation.

    #16 6 years ago

    Yes I have a logic probe and have been using it extensively. I feel like I have a solid understanding of the circuitry at this point.

    The reset circuit works fine when shorting U39/40. Wasn't aware that a switching PS would factor into that. NVRAM tests fine (5V/0 ohms resistor to TP5)

    All sockets have been replaced. All pins verified with continuity. Nothing shorted and no traces cut. I've got a verified 2532 EPROM in U2, the 9332 in U6, a chip in U7, NVRAM in U8, 6800 in U9, 6821 in U10 and that unknown "3921x" chip in U11.

    I noticed that line A7 is not pulsing with the same frequency as the others. It sounds "weird". I also noticed that the R/W line upon reset pulses 2 or 3 times, then locks on high.

    So since I'm not getting any flashes after the flicker, I assume the ROM check is bad. This board was NOT from Black Pyramid (per original post). I erased/burned/verified the U2 ROM onto the 2532 from http://www.ipdb.org/search.pl?any=black+pyramid&search=Search+Database&searchtype=quick
    the filename says BLKP2732.U2. Should it not make a difference that I have a 2532 chip?

    But the U6 chip does not have a window to erase it (see original post). Do I need to do anything there?

    #17 6 years ago

    I'd buzz out A7 for an issue then. It should sound much like all the rest of the lower address bits. A7 will go to both PIAs P24, U7 RAM P 5, U8 NVRAM socket P7, U2 and U6 ROMS P1. Check for shorts to nearby traces like at the ROMs where they snake between two socket legs.

    If you think A7 has a problem its usually easiest to remove all the socketed chips except the CPU. The logic probe will give consistent results then and A7 should sound much like A8 and A6 does. If A7 starts to behave well with just the CPU. Add the U6 ROM and U11 PIA and try and boot. then add the rest of the parts back in one at time to see if say a bad PIA or RAM is locking up the board.

    If you replaced all the sockets, id double check all the work where A7 travels by. Might have splashed solder or left a track open up.

    #18 6 years ago

    Alright, NOW we're getting somewhere!

    Sure enough, at U9 found with a magnifying glass that one of the "in between" traces had lifted and was touching the A7 signal. Repaired that, tested with just U9 present. All good address signals. Put back in U6 and U11, good.

    Then we take an interlude where I'm a dumbass and start inserting the remainder of the chips while I had power applied.
    Screwed up the U2 EPROM, but thankfully it erased and reburned without issue.

    NOW I get solid 3 flashes. Which means U10 is screwed up. Not surprised since that's the one with no label and may not even be a 6821 chip. Hoping to borrow one from a friend...but have some on order with Jameco.

    #19 6 years ago
    Quoted from wxforecaster:

    Alright, NOW we're getting somewhere!
    Sure enough, at U9 found with a magnifying glass that one of the "in between" traces had lifted and was touching the A7 signal. Repaired that, tested with just U9 present. All good address signals. Put back in U6 and U11, good.
    Then we take an interlude where I'm a dumbass and start inserting the remainder of the chips while I had power applied.
    Screwed up the U2 EPROM, but thankfully it erased and reburned without issue.
    NOW I get solid 3 flashes. Which means U10 is screwed up. Not surprised since that's the one with no label and may not even be a 6821 chip. Hoping to borrow one from a friend...but have some on order with Jameco.

    nice work. sounds like you are in the home stretch.

    #20 6 years ago

    It lives!! Found u10 pin9 (an in between trace) connected to u10 pin31, which caused a bizarre signal on PA7. Literally a speck of solder under the DIP I added... took a high powered magnifier to find. Game boots for the first time and I have good displays and solenoids!

    Thanks for your help. Now onto cleaning up and shopping this mess

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