(Topic ID: 221516)

bally 35 first flash

By BarryMulvihill

5 years ago


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  • 14 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Quench
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 5 years ago

i have a bally -35 mpu that at power on, only gets the first flicker. if i jump pins 39 and 40 of cpu, usually it resets and proceeds with all of the flashes and boots properly.

any idea what makes it sometimes boot normally and sometimes stop after the first flicker?

thanks in advance.

#2 5 years ago

Is this happening in game or on a test bench with powersupply?

When you say it "usually resets" manually resetting the CPU, do you mean it properly resets every time or only sometimes?

Can you check the voltage across the 8.2V zener diode at VR1 (bottom left of the MPU board). If it's less than about 7.8V the reset circuitry on powerup is releasing too quickly so you should try replacing it.

#3 5 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Is this happening in game or on a test bench with powersupply?

happens on both the bench and in game. im not certain tho if my bench power setup requires a manual reset of board because of its initial power speed, or if its the board.
i should mention driver board capacitors are new.

Quoted from Quench:

When you say it "usually resets" manually resetting the CPU, do you mean it properly resets every time or only sometimes?

most times, but not everytime. and also since first post, i replaced U2 socket hoping somehow that was the issue, and it booted up twice in game fine. then it started stopping at two flashes. i switched out U8 and U19 (they are both already socketed), it booted up fine a couple times, but now it wont get past initial flicker, even when i jump cpu pins.

Quoted from Quench:

Can you check the voltage across the 8.2V zener diode at VR1

ill check that asap. i replaced all the reset components a few months ago, while attempting to get this board to flicker, i think i still have some extra components i got extra of. i may have another VR1.

thanks for responding.

#4 5 years ago

Usually a faulty or low voltage VR1 will only exhibit unreliable powerup sequence (it's essentially used as a power good detector on powerup) - a manual reset will work every time. But check the voltage across it anyway.

I have to ask the usual question - what's the state of battery corrosion (if any) with this board?

#5 5 years ago

its actually very pretty clean looking. no real signs of corrosion. a small amount of green paint has been sanded off both lower corners but components dont look affected.

i recieved this board in a game as untested. its replacement battery is one of those disk capacitor looking things. im not familiar with those yet.

all but the U16 chip are socketed. repair work looks fine. not sloppy.

This is the second board to unreliably boot in this game. but both boards are in questionable shape so im not really sure at all if its the boards or something in game creating the unreliability.

i found more VR1s, ill replace it tomorrow just to make certain its not that.

#6 5 years ago

And post a picture of the board.

#7 5 years ago

Yes, pictures would be nice.

If zener diode VR1 measures over 7.8V then there's no need to replace it especially when you say manually resetting the CPU doesn't always get the board to boot. VR1 plays no role when you manually reset - your issues are elsewhere.

#8 5 years ago

if these are not high enough resolution, I can take them again with my wifes iPhone this evening...

IMG_20180721_094953261 (resized).jpgIMG_20180721_094953261 (resized).jpgIMG_20180721_095059491 (resized).jpgIMG_20180721_095059491 (resized).jpgIMG_20180721_095319 (resized).jpgIMG_20180721_095319 (resized).jpg
#9 5 years ago

The corrosion might have been a bit deeper than expected.
Has the bare copper been lacquered? I always retin it with solder to protect it which also puts more meat on the bones.

Try flexing different areas of the board and then also put pressure on socketed chips. If it affects boot-up reliability in a repeatable way, you might be looking at a slightly suspect joint/connection?
If not, your random symptoms are possibly indicating a suspect chip. Have you successfully tested the ROMs, RAMs, CPU and PIAs in another board?

Someones installed a super capacitor to replace the battery. If left un-powered it should hold settings/audits for a month or so.

Also, check transistor Q5 - it might just be the angle on the picture but the outer legs look close together at the base and may be touching the centre leg.

#10 5 years ago

thanks for inspecting pics.

bare copper is bare. I can tin it tonight.

you could be onto something with the chips. ive switched out most of them when working on my other -35, and that board boots up unreliably as well.

roms are newly burnt, and other chips were from a reputable vendor as a bally 35 mpu set. so i didn't expect them to be wonky. ive replaced most of the sockets, but not all. so possibly issues from one i haven't replace yet?

is there any possibility of the super capacitor creating issues after being totally empty for a long time?

ill check q5 tonite, but fairly certain its the angle of pic.

if it is a wonky chip or socket, would i be correct to assume its not U6 U9 or U11 because i do get a flicker reliably?

again, thanks for the help

#11 5 years ago
Quoted from BarryMulvihill:

you could be onto something with the chips. ive switched out most of them when working on my other -35, and that board boots up unreliably as well.

Yeah might be time to swap chips with/onto a known good working board.
.

Quoted from BarryMulvihill:

is there any possibility of the super capacitor creating issues after being totally empty for a long time?

Not really.
.

Quoted from BarryMulvihill:

if it is a wonky chip or socket, would i be correct to assume its not U6 U9 or U11 because i do get a flicker reliably?

When the MPU board is first powered on, the LED defaults to ON.
After the reset line is released, the CPU reaches out to the U6 ROM and starts executing code. The first bit of code switches OFF the LED via the U11 PIA chip.
This is the very first flicker you see on power-up. After the LED is switched off, the U6 ROM code then starts performing a ROM checksum on U6 and U2. If the checksum result is zero, the ROMs are presumed good and then code gets the LED to flash ON for half a second then continue onto the next tests.

Pay attention to how quick the initial flicker is. If it's consistent then its a good sign that U6, U9 and U11 *might* be ok.
If the first flicker is sometimes noticeably longer, it could be the CPU initially reaching out to the wrong area of ROM, the CPU receiving wrong data from ROM or other and essentially taking time to reach meaningful code to switch off the LED.

#12 5 years ago

I sadly don't have a third board to switch with (time to get another project lol), but do have other chips. I will switch out what I can, and also replace any remaining sockets I did not replace myself.

ill post back with any updates, hopefully positive news.

thanks for the info, I have some good leads to go on now.

#13 5 years ago

alright, so when i got to the board today, it was consistently booting on the bench. That made me wonder if it was a power issue. In the game, I checked all test points on driver board and mpu, and they were all correct. i connected the rest of the cables, and the game booted up correctly, but then crashed after about a minute.

I then replaced VR1. the one i took out read 0 volts in both directions.

Game was then consistently getting the first flicker, but would not get the first flash, even when jumping the cpu pins.

I burned a new U6, and now it boots up correctly. i got it into attract mode multiple times, and played for about ten minutes. turned it off, and back on and it went to attract mode again.'

holding my breath but it seems okay now.

@quench thanks a lot for the leads. i really appreciate it.

#14 5 years ago

Great stuff - good to hear you sorted it out!

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