(Topic ID: 150214)

Bally 1970 Double-Up Minimalist Restoration

By Pecos

8 years ago


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  • 134 posts
  • 15 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Pecos
  • Topic is favorited by 18 Pinsiders

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There are 134 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 3.
#101 8 years ago

Nice!!! Congrats in tracking down that outlane problem! Looking forward to the rule set. That should help BorgDog with the virtual table, too. Good luck with the final fix!!!

#102 8 years ago

I forgot to thank BorgDog for the list of fonts used in his Double-Up visual pinball artwork. Thanks BorgDog! He is far too humble. His Visual Pinball X downloads have excellent ratings. Most are 5 star with a couple of 4 star ratings - all the more reason to look forward to his Double-Up download. This Double-Up game play and rule set should help complete his noble mission!

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Apologies for the small text.

#103 8 years ago

Nice write-up Alan, that will definitely be a big help!

#104 8 years ago

Holy poo! That's gotta be a better write-up than the manual! Fantastic work, Pecos! The visuals really help, too!

#105 8 years ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

Fantastic work, Pecos!

Thanks! I'm afraid my IT background is showing.

Quoted from RyanClaytor:

Holy poo! That's gotta be a better write-up than the manual!

Ha ha! Maybe I can get a job at Stern writing up their manuals! Of course, I would need each of their pinball machines 'in house' to fully learn the rule set!

#106 8 years ago

Tackled the Ball in Play advancing intermittently. I found a few strands of wire broken to the solenoid.

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I resoldered the wire thinking this would fix the problem, but no-go. I found the Score Motor switch for this solenoid and cleaned it with 500 grit sand paper. Problem solved - only too well! The Ball in Play would advance randomly during play. Readjusting the Outhole switch fixed this problem.

I have had issues, I think, with dirty switches even after cleaning TWICE with a burnishing tool up front. 500 grit sandpaper solved these problems. I still am leery about using fine grit sandpaper on EM switches and do so sparingly. Also, sandpaper should never be used on solid state pinball machines.

Wahoo!!!

The final major problem has been found and fixed! Using the schematic I noticed that the front Slam Tilt switch should be normally closed. I remember opening it because I had a Tilt problem - obviously a different Tilt problem. Oops! I closed and cleaned the Slam Tilt switch, turned on the machine and pressed the Start button. It was like magic! Everything suddenly worked!

After closing this switch:
The game now starts when pressing the Start button
The Credit Unit Step-Down Coil now energizes
The Ball Count Unit Reset Coil now energizes
The Coin relay hold works
The Game Over Interlock Relay now locks and Game Over lamp goes out
The Score Motor no longer stops short of 'Home' position

So many problems fixed because of one silly Slam Tilt switch. It's always such a wonderful feeling that can't be described with words when fixing these kinds of problems!

There are still a few issues to be resolved, fingers crossed, but I can now play a full game of Double-Up without having to lift the Playfield and manually close relays!

I am now a 'schematic convert' - at least for Bally pinball machines. I've been able to fix my Williams pinball machines without schematics but it would have taken me weeks more to fix the problems with my Bally Double-Up without a schematic. It is well worth the 15-20 dollars it costs to buy a clean, readable schematic on one page that you can lay out in front of you.

#107 8 years ago
Quoted from Pecos:

Using the schematic I noticed that the front Slam Tilt switch should be normally closed.

Been there, done that! I figure they have some NO and some NC just to mess with people.

#108 8 years ago
Quoted from Pecos:

I have had issues, I think, with dirty switches even after cleaning TWICE with a burnishing tool up front. 500 grit sandpaper solved these problems. I still am leery about using fine grit sandpaper on EM switches and do so sparingly.

I only use a metal point file on EM contacts. Regular points get a mild wipe and tungsten points get a hard file. This approach provides much more consistent results for me.

#109 8 years ago

After my successful Slam Tilt switch find, I played some games of Double-Up. I had some really good games and then some really lousy games. Double-Up giveth and Double-Up takes away. Just when you think you have mastered the doubling of the ups, it puts you back in your humble place where you belong.

I noticed that the Outlane Bonus that I had spent so much time fixing was no longer working! Rats! A half an hour later I realized that the spidey legs on the Hole Score Unit weren't making contact properly. A paper towel, a few swipes and the extra, now dirty, Super Lube was removed from the contacts and the Outlane Bonus came back to life. Take heed, when applying Super Lube, use a cloth or paper towel to remove most of it. It only requires the thinnest of layers to do it's job.

My orders from PBR and Marco's arrived today.

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Included in this picture are some parts for Double-Up:

Fuse Holder
Yellow Mushroom Bumper Caps
White Posts
Red Single Sided Inlane Guide
Fuses

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More parts for Double-Up:
7/16" Rubber Rings
White Shooter Tip, I chewed up the old one lifting the playfield so many times
Leaf Switches
Springs

I decided to attack the Mushroom Bumpers first. This is my first pinball with Mushroom Bumpers so I was a complete novice about how they worked. I have been passing BorgDog pictures and scans of Double-Up and after sending him some Mushroom Bumper pics, he asked me if I was going to put rubber rings on the Mushroom Bumpers. Huh? What do you mean? They need rubber rings? The ones on Double-Up were long-gone. I did some quick research and found that, yes, these Mushroom Bumpers need rubber rings, one 7/16" ring for each.

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Before, badly cracked

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Mushroom Bumpers underside

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Mushroom Bumper parts

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Before cleaning

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After Cleaning. Notice the two holes. The Mushroom Bumper Body slips into the large hole. A small plastic piece fits into the smaller hole to keep the Mushroom Body from turning.

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The new Mushroom Caps use a different method of attachment. They are attached with a one-way clip. Not my preferred method. You can't remove them once they are on. Of course, I put the first one together wrong and had to cut the clip with wire cutters to reassemble properly. If there is a way to get it wrong, I will find it! And I DID find a way to remove that one-way clip!

#110 8 years ago

I think Double-Up has spent some time in the pyramids. It may have the of Curse of the Pharaohs put on it just like those archaeologists you see in those old movies who croak because they have disturbed the burial chambers. Maybe one of those gremlins I have heard about has slipped into this pinball machine. Two of the major problems I thought I had fixed have returned to haunt me. One thing is for sure. It's never a dull moment here at the Pecos' Palatial Pinball Parlour!

The Outlane Bonus step-up coil is not working on the Bonus Unit, again. I thought I had it fixed by cleaning the contacts. It worked for a short time. I found that when I pressed in on the Hole Score Unit spider, the coil worked.

Then I stood and watched in amazement as the Mushroom Bumper was activated with no scoring. The contacts were just cleaned and they were closing properly. I tried multiple times and no scoring. I then pressed the switches together manually and it began scoring again! And it continued scoring thereafter.

It was time to install the new fuse block that I had just received from PBR. I did this and the Outlane Bonus appears to be working again. I'm not counting any chickens yet; we'll have to see how long this works.

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As much as I wanted to keep 'as many original parts as possible', this fuse block was too important and too non-conductive to keep.

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New fuse block in place. Two of the holes on the mech board even lined up with the holes in the fuse block!

One major problem now fixed, AGAIN?!

The problems I thought I had fixed with the front door Slam Tilt are back - these problems:

The game does not start when pressing the Start button
The Credit Unit Step-Down Coil does not energize
The Ball Count Unit Reset Coil does not energize
The Coin relay hold does not work
The Game Over Interlock Relay does not lock and Game Over lamp stays lit
The Score Motor stops short of 'Home' position

I am going to permanently close the Slam Tilt with a wire jumper and have a look at the switches in the start-up circuit. It's possible that another switch, particularly on the Score Motor is not working. The start-up sequence is very complicated.

Somehow, I have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. This only makes me more determined to get Double-Up working 100%.

#111 8 years ago

I replaced the broken left Inlane Ball Guide and two red Posts with new parts from PBR. With the two new Mushroom Bumper caps the playfield is almost finished.

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With four fingers crossed, I believe the major problem that returned has now been fixed. It was either the contacts on the Slam Tilt not being parallel or the relays that were sitting on the mech board without being screwed in place - I'm guessing it was the latter. I fixed both of these issues and the problem has gone away.

Once again, Double-Up lives!

#112 8 years ago

Fingers and toes crossed, Double-Up is still working and all major problems seem to be fixed. I spent some time adjusting playfield switches, again, because they were too close. Also put a nut under one of the left long plastic's posts. The pinball was getting stuck under the plastic when it went past the Eject Hole.

With Double-Up now working 98%, I shot, edited and posted 'Double-Up - The Video' on YouTube. It shows me starting up the game, playing two games, one game when set to liberal (L) and one game when set to conservative (N) and a thorough discussion of the rule set.

#113 8 years ago

Excellent video and explanation!

#114 8 years ago

Congrats on the playable pin! Thanks for the video and explanation of rules. Sounds like a fun game! You've really done an honorable job with all the restoration and documentation, Pecos! Ted Zale would be proud!

#115 8 years ago

P.S. Good luck trouble-shooting that special/credit counter.

1 week later
#116 8 years ago
Quoted from MikeO:

I would recommend installing a mylar trim ring under the pop bumpers to protect the playfield.
Personally, I like the non adhesive Gottlieb version because it is removable. Others swear by the adhesive version used on later Bally and Williams games. In your instance I would still want this to be easily reversible.
Food for thought.

Some of you may think that I wasn't listening to your suggestions. Wrong! I did buy four Mylar playfield protectors without the stick-um. Thanks for the suggestion MikeO! It was a lot of work for little gain. But that is the negative side. Nothing but the best for Double-Up!

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The leads to the Thumper Bumper lamps had to be desoldered.

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I cleaned the area under the Thumper Bumpers and gave it two coats of Carnauba wax.

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When I laid out the Mylar on the playfield I noticed a problem. The Mushroom Bumpers were in the way.

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No problem. I cut out some notches in the Mylar.

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The final results. I hope this little extra care will lessen the playfield wear around the Thumper Bumpers. One thing I have learned. You MUST keep all dirt and grit out from under the Mylar or the playfield will wear faster, not slower.

#117 8 years ago
Quoted from Pecos:

Mylar playfield protectors without the stick-um.

Huh! Those look great! I like the fact that they're not wed to the playfield. Nice install. I might need to grab a few of these for some of my machines.

Although...

Quoted from Pecos:

You MUST keep all dirt and grit out from under the Mylar or the playfield will wear faster, not slower.

...this made me wonder if, perhaps, mylar WITH adhesive would work better at keeping the area under the pops clean and protected, as it would not allow dirt/movement/friction underneath the mylar.

Although (again), I guess you run the risk of your adhesive mylar becoming cloudy and not being able to remove it.

*sigh* Such a double-edged sword.

Does anyone have experience with both? Do you know how long it takes for adhesive mylar to wear? Do you have much trouble with the non-adhesive mylar tearing up the playfield surface due to dirt? How often do you clean the PF to keep the non-adhesive mylar trouble-free?

SO MANY QUESTIONS!

Thanks for the food for thought, Pecos.

#118 8 years ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

Does anyone have experience with both?

When I got my first machine I was advised to use the adhesive rather than the non-adhesive due to the trapping dirt underneath issue. Over 1000 games and they're still clear as the day I installed them. That being said I never installed any before I was born so whether they'd pull up the paint when removing after 40 years I couldn't tell ya

#119 8 years ago

I've used both and no longer use the non-adhesive type due to the dirt trapping issue. It is impossible to clean underneath the non-adhesive without disassembling the bumper.

#120 8 years ago
Quoted from polyacanthus:

I was advised to use the adhesive rather than the non-adhesive due to the trapping dirt underneath issue.

Quoted from bingopodcast:

I've used both and no longer use the non-adhesive type due to the dirt trapping issue.

Pecos! You're my play-tester! I'll be haranguing you for non-adhesive updates in the months to com.

#121 8 years ago

The biggest issue with the non-adhesive, aside from trapping dirt underneath, which will smash it into the playfield with each solenoid pull, will also become a bit cloudy over time. Irritating. The adhesive style doesn't do either of those things, though each time you rebuild the pops, you should remove the adhesive circles or replace the non-adhesive circles. A little heat will pull them up easily without paint loss.

#122 8 years ago
Quoted from polyacanthus:

When I got my first machine I was advised to use the adhesive rather than the non-adhesive due to the trapping dirt underneath issue.

Quoted from bingopodcast:

I've used both and no longer use the non-adhesive type due to the dirt trapping issue.

Thanks guys for the feedback. I plan to keep the playfield clean and waxed and wouldn't expect it to be a major issue for home use, but Double-Up will likely get more play considering it's novelty.

That said, I'm going to experiment on one thumper bumper to try to eliminate the dirt-trapping issue. I have some rubber cement that was drying out. I did some research and found that naphtha can be used to thin rubber cement. I added the naphtha and it worked reasonably well to thin out the rubber cement. I will glue some extra Mylar I have lying around under the apron to be sure it won't damage the playfield. I don't expect it to. Naphtha is safe and rubber cement is pretty stable stuff. If that goes well, I will try it under one of the thumper bumper Mylar protectors. That should keep the dirt and grit out and still allow the Mylar protector to be easily removed from the playfield when I want to, exactly what I am looking for. It's kind of like Post-It notes for pinball.

#123 8 years ago

Rubber cement will likely be unevenly aplied, due to its nature, and will therefore still have the undesired effect of trapping dirt. No idea how you plan to apply it, of course. And never tried it myself. Just a thought.

#124 8 years ago

For SCIENCE!

#125 8 years ago

I struggle with this adhesive vs non adhesive debate.

Gottlieb games came with non adhesive style and I have games where the art under the pops has survived tens of thousands of games with no wear.

I prefer to keep my games original.

I don't understand the aversion to non adhesive style with proper maintenance.

#126 8 years ago
Quoted from bingopodcast:

Rubber cement will likely be unevenly aplied, due to its nature, and will therefore still have the undesired effect of trapping dirt.

I'm gonna respectfully doubt this claim. You know I've got love for ya, BingoPodcast, but rubber cement is actually a really great FLAT adhesive for working with craft projects, like paper. Try gluing a couple substrates together with Elmers white glue and then again with rubber cement. With rubber cement you get none of that unsightly beading-up of the glue or worbling of the paper, like you get with the Elmers. Because of that, I'd IMAGINE (again, I've never tried it) that you could apply the rubber cement pretty thin and evenly (even without thinning it) and it would lay pretty darn flat. Now, I make no claims to it's transparency(would it look like you had a film of something in front of the artwork?), archival quality(would it do anything adverse to the artwork/playfield over time?), or ability to be removed without taking some screen-printed art along with it, but I have a feeling this rubber cement theory has a fighting chance of working-out.

Pecos, please keep us updated if you decide to move forward with this thought.

Quoted from polyacanthus:

I was advised to use the adhesive rather than the non-adhesive due to the trapping dirt underneath issue.

Quoted from bingopodcast:

I've used both and no longer use the non-adhesive type due to the dirt trapping issue.

Quoted from MikeO:

Gottlieb games came with non adhesive style and I have games where the art under the pops has survived tens of thousands of games with no wear.

This is so interesting. I'm genuinely curious about this issue, since I'll likely be forced into this same decision-making process soon. Poly and Bingo, have you ever experienced the non-adhesive dirt-trapping becoming an issue first-hand?

#127 8 years ago

I agree, originality is great in most instances. You're right: under proper care, probably not an issue. In the case of a free-floating piece of plastic on top of the playfield (and dirt and such), it stands to reason that it's going to be beating that stuff in with each thrust from the ring into the ball.

In a newly rebuilt mech, they are very fast and can therefore do more damage.

But! We are talking about the area under the pops, which is typically worn anyway.

Due to the nature of the pops and the fact that they obstruct so much of the surrounding area, it makes it difficult to clean properly. Most folks don't desolder and remove their pops every time they clean, and dirt is trapped under the sheet.

If you prefer to keep it clean, the adhesive works well. If originality matters, use the plastic sheets (if Gottlieb). If you don't care, use nothing. In the end it's up to the individual. I'm just sharing my thoughts and experiences.

#128 8 years ago

And yes, I've experienced non-adhesive dirt-trapping becoming an issue, or I would've just kept silent.

The only experience with rubber cement on a pinball machine that I have is attempting to use it to hold on passive bumper caps.

#129 8 years ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

Poly and Bingo, have you ever experienced the non-adhesive dirt-trapping becoming an issue first-hand?

I have not, but it stands to reason... Until you clean under the protector there will be dirt under there. If not, why clean under it?

When I got my first machine all that was left of the floating rings were discolored remnants that had been cut out of the original by the 60s metal skirts.

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1 month later
#130 7 years ago

I have finally gotten around to finishing the thumper bumper Mylar protector experiment. I had placed two test pieces of Mylar, Mylar side down on the playfield under the bottom apron. On one, I used Elmer's CraftBond Rubber Cement and on the other I used regular Elmer's Rubber Cement:

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They were there for about a month. I saw no damage to the playfield for either test strip so I got out the CraftBond Elmer's and began to put it under the thumper bumper Mylar playfield protectors.

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It took a lot more rubber cement than I would have guessed. I got the best results when I put the cement on both the playfield and the underside of the Mylar playfield protector. Then I slowly pushed the Mylar protector down toward the playfield until the rubber cement was evenly distributed under the playfield protector. Then I cleaned the rubber cement that was squeezed out from under the Mylar protector and onto the playfield.

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It looks great now. As you can see, the rubber cement is invisible. The rubber cement should act as a cushion each time the pinball hits the thumper bumper further reducing any playfield wear. The remaining question is how the rubber cement will hold up over time.

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#131 7 years ago

Neat!! Very interested to see results over time.

#132 7 years ago
Quoted from Pecos:

the thumper bumper Mylar protector experiment

Cool! Thanks for documenting this, Pecos!

2 months later
#133 7 years ago

I keep coming back to this thread, this title looks awesome. Hopefully you'll let me own this one day when you get tired of it.

Who needs "keepers", pffffffft...

2 years later
#134 5 years ago

I am continually trying to improve my restoration techniques. I wanted to update this thread to show you two new methods that I am using that make a huge difference in how well the restoration turns out.

The first is now the most important tool I use in an EM restoration. It should not be used on SS or newer pins! I am talking about the 'Magic Wand' that NicoVolta made famous. Using a Dremel tool and a #443 brush, the contacts are polished to a super smooth and shiny sheen. Clean the contacts with Q-Tips and Isopropy alcohol, then polish the contacts with the Dremel and brush. A final cleaning with Q-Tips and Isopropyl alcohol finishes the job. It doesn't take all that long and the results are amazing. I no longer use a burnishing tool - this is the tool for me.

I have found some #443 brushes on Amazon that are, I believe, just as or almost as good as the Dremel brushes. The big difference is the price. They cost about one fifth the cost of the Dremel brushes.

TEMO 10 pc Carbon Steel 1/4 inch (6mm) Pen Wire Brushes #443 with 1/8 inch (3mm) Shank fit Dremel and Compatible Rotary Tool:

https://www.amazon.com/TEMO-Carbon-Brushes-Dremel-Compatible/dp/B00H7Q9RDQ/ref=sr_1_1_sspa

I heard about Mother's Mag and Aluminum Polish here on Pinside. But I have never seen anyone use these on stepper unit contacts. Using a cotton pad and the Mother's polish, I buff the contacts on every stepper unit. The contacts are bright, shiny and as smooth as a baby's bottom when done.

Both of these methods should improve EM functionality and last for many tens of thousands of games. If you don't use these techniques, give them a try. I think you will find them as useful as I have.

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'Color Back' is no longer available. I am using 91% Isopropyl alcohol on playfields, mech boards and metal parts that need to be cleaned. WARNING! One playfield, a Gottlieb 'King Pin', I found that Ispopropyl alcohol dissolved the clear coat! It turns out that is exactly want I wanted to do to that playfield, but likely not you want to have happen to yours! Always test Isopropyl alcohol, or any chemical for that matter, in an inconspicuous spot before going whole hog with it!

Another word about Mother's Mag and Aluminum Polish: This stuff is amazing! I use it to polish most metals. It cleans up grungy bells beautifully and chromed metals and copper/brass to a bright shine. I put it on an old t-shirt instead of the polishing compound I used to use to shine up the heads of screws. Every screw that comes of the game gets polished by hand, waxed by hand and then buffed on a clean part of the t-shirt, by hand. That little round copper thingy that is part of the tilt bob assembly is always dirty. After some elbow grease and some Mother's Mag and Aluminum Polish on a cotton pad, it comes out gleaming. The ball-roll tilt and the total play meter are other parts that clean up nicely. It doesn't do rust. I use 500 grit paper first on any rust, then follow up with the Mother's.

Car enthusiasts like to pop the hood on their restored cars to show the clean engine compartment. I like to pop the playfield on my pins after restoration to show off gleaming metal parts!

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