(Topic ID: 120096)

Bally -17 (Mata Hari) power issue - runs then dies

By shimoda

9 years ago


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  • 24 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 years ago by shimoda
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#1 9 years ago

I have a Bally Mata Hari that I've done bulletproofing too, though I haven't replaced the 5 Volt Regulator. After being on for a while the score displays and MPU just basically stop working, anything driven by the MPU stops. If I switch the game off then back on, nothing unless I wait quite some time - I assume for something to cool off. However, if I short pins 39 and 40 on the CPU (6800) chip then the game resets and plays fine for a while, till it does its thing again. I've also replaced the transistors in the reset section but since that seems to work and power (5V) seems to be fine even when the game switches out I'm totally lost for what to do here. Otherwise I've had no issues and brought the game back to life from essentially a bunch of dead boards. Ideas? I might go ahead and replace the LM 323 but it doesn't seem to be failing - i.e. I get 5 V from it.

#2 9 years ago

Have you replaced the bridge rectifiers on the rectifier board?

#3 9 years ago

In your bulletproofing did you rebuild both sides of the connectors on MPU J4, right side of solenoid board and outputs of rectifier board?

#4 9 years ago

Yes to both of the above. All new pins on MPU and SDB and new pins for the connectors (at least on the MPU). I need to recheck whether or not I repinned the entire power connector. Power Supply is all new parts as I do that first when I get an older game like this. I just finished repinning the entire set of connectors for the MPU and SDB on my Flash Gordon, talk about twisted back and cut up fingers

j4 on MPU I just repinned last night.

#5 9 years ago

I want to say I have had numerous problems with the connector that feeds power (12V?) to the regulator to generate the +5V logic supply. If that connector so much as blinks open the system crashes.

It is always scorched on an unrepaired game.

I think it's one of those fat wires.

#6 9 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

I want to say I have had numerous problems with the connector that feeds power (12V?) to the regulator to generate the +5V logic supply. If that connector so much as blinks open the system crashes.
It is always scorched on an unrepaired game.
I think it's one of those fat wires.

The orange 12v ground return wire is what burns. Tying the negative lead of the filter cap to master ground helps this not happen.

This is the hardest issues to trouble shoot. I just had a 6800 CPU that would overheat and lock up. Took an hour or two of attract mode before it happened. I would exhaust power supply issues first though.

#7 9 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

The orange 12v ground return wire is what burns. Tying the negative lead of the filter cap to master ground helps this not happen.
This is the hardest issues to trouble shoot. I just had a 6800 CPU that would overheat and lock up. Took an hour or two of attract mode before it happened. I would exhaust power supply issues first though.

I've done that mod already. Not sure I have a spare 6800 but perhaps I'll see if I have one that is known working (other than my FG as I don't want to invite problems there) and try that out. Wouldn't surprise me but none of the chips feel particularly hot right after this happens.

#8 9 years ago

I just noticed the 5V regulator here is a 78H05. I know they used these but isn't the lm 323 rated higher? I'm going to repin J3 (the long one) on the SDB as I haven't yet done that, blerg, repinning...

#9 9 years ago
Quoted from shimoda:

I just noticed the 5V regulator here is a 78H05. I know they used these but isn't the lm 323 rated higher? I'm going to repin J3 (the long one) on the SDB as I haven't yet done that, blerg, repinning...

If the regulator is outputtting 4.8v to 5.25v, it is fine.

#10 9 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

If the regulator is outputtting 4.8v to 5.25v, it is fine.

What about AC ripple on the regulator output ?

#11 9 years ago
Quoted from JKnPA:

What about AC ripple on the regulator output ?

9/10 ripple on the 12v line is going to be a failure of the c23 cap, not the regulator. I suppose it could happen, and ripple is a really good thing to check tho. Meter on AC low volts. Check across the filter cap leads. Should be less than 0.25vac. There should be near zero ripple on the 5v line.

#12 9 years ago

I replaced C23 as I always do with these: ~0.16 VAC at the cap and about 0.009 VAC ripple on the 5V line. I pretty much replace both those caps first thing with Bally boards. Same with pins. I had a lot to repair on this SDB, 154, two CA3081s, few transistor/diode/resistors but got this running well. This has been the only issue. The 5V regulator can get pretty hot. I replaced the pin on pin 12 of the J3 connector in case it was too old/dirty/causing resistance. Game is in attract and running so I'm waiting to see if it craps out again. What is funny to me is that a power cycle won't bring it right back up but a reset jumping pins 39 and 40 of the 6800 does.

#13 9 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

9/10 ripple on the 12v line is going to be a failure of the c23 cap, not the regulator. I suppose it could happen, and ripple is a really good thing to check tho. Meter on AC low volts. Check across the filter cap leads. Should be less than 0.25vac. There should be near zero ripple on the 5v line.

I was referring to C25....... 5Volt regular output.

#14 9 years ago

No ripple there.

#15 9 years ago

Your power supply is clean. Check on the MPU. Is R113 or R16 burned, bottom left corner, zero crossing circuit. Can you make the mpu crash or reboot by gently flexing on the ICs in scokets? The IC sockets in these -17 boards are pretty unreliable.

#16 9 years ago

I've replaced a couple of the sockets and pressing on them doesn't seem to affect the game, flexed the MPU quite a bit. Did finally get it to reset so I think I'll just go ahead and replace the sockets. Since I changed that pin for the 12V supply line the 5V regulator seems to be running less hot. But I'll just replace the remaining sockets I hadn't yet replaced and see if that fixes the issue.

#17 9 years ago

Same problem on this machine...problem #4

http://www.thepinballfix.com/matahari/mh_p2.html

I just happened to read it. Hope it helps.

#18 9 years ago

you may be barking up the wrong tree on this.
on the -17 MPU board, have you replaced the chip sockets? on every -17 board, and i do mean every one, the sockets need to be replaced. especially if it's those brown sockets (though the black closed frame ones are bad too.)

what happens is as the game warms up, the chips actually expand a bit and push themselves out of the old sockets. all you need is one millisecond of non-conductivity, and that will lock the MPU board.

you didn't say what you did to the MPU board itself, this is why i ask. Personally i run with a combo U2 2732 EPROM (so there's no need to change the U6 socket) on -17 chime games using an original -17 MPU board.

#19 9 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

you may be barking up the wrong tree on this.
on the -17 MPU board, have you replaced the chip sockets? on every -17 board, and i do mean every one, the sockets need to be replaced. especially if it's those brown sockets (though the black closed frame ones are bad too.)
what happens is as the game warms up, the chips actually expand a bit and push themselves out of the old sockets. all you need is one millisecond of non-conductivity, and that will lock the MPU board.
you didn't say what you did to the MPU board itself, this is why i ask. Personally i run with a combo U2 2732 EPROM (so there's no need to change the U6 socket) on -17 chime games using an original -17 MPU board.

+1 on recommending doing the single 2732 at U2, it is the ideal setup. One less socket to swap out, one less place to have a physical connection issue. The cut/jumpering is pretty easy for that setup as well.

There is not much documentation about doing so, but this single eprom at u2 works for all the stern mpu-100 games as well.

With the -17 MPU, from the factory you either have the closed from AUGAT sockets (crappy), or the close frame brown/orange socket(extra crappy). You can pull the housing off the augat socket, pull each pin one at a time, you can leave the paper in while you pull pins. The brown/orange sockets you need a good desoldering tool and take them off in one piece, it usually desolders well and falls out.

#20 9 years ago

Actually I have not changed the sockets on this one just yet. I will likely do the single 2732 mod for the -17 board but I am a bit confused about some of the steps. The wiki and Clay's guides have slightly different steps listed so it's hard to read the full list of what changes need to be made to the -17 board. I've done mods to other boards (35) but the changes seemed a bit more clear. I also need to order more eproms as I ran out quickly when I told people I bought a programmer.

#21 9 years ago

The pinwiki tutorial provides so much information it gets confusing. It could be reworded in a simpler fashion. Basically you cut 2 or 3 traces and make 3 or 4 jumpers.

Here are some old pics i have that are pretty clear. You can see i cut a trace around the e3 jumper.
20131128_222932.jpg20131128_222932.jpg

On the backside you can see where i cut a trace near my blue jumper wire.

20131128_222947.jpg20131128_222947.jpg

#22 9 years ago

If anyone gets around to verifying the list of actual changes to align a -17 with 2732 then I'll go with it. I have a -17 that came with my FG that was apparently modded (as it uses 2 2732s) but not sure it would be the same as one 2732. I'll go through the wiki and make a list to post here and see what you guys think. I might as well keep it simple.

UPDATE:

So here is what is on pinwiki for Jumper info. Would appreciate if one of you guys could verify that I'm putting this together correctly.

Bally1.PNGBally1.PNG

From the wiki:

Reference the left picture.
Verify that jumpers E6-E7 and E8-E10 are in place. Remove any jumpers at E1, E2, E3, E4, or E5. That is, remove all jumpers except E6-E7 and E8-E10.
Reference the center picture.
On the solder side of the -17 board, find U18 pin 4. Cut the trace close to pin 4 as shown below. In the picture below, a blue/black dot marks the cut made with a Dremel "ball cutter" bit.
Scrape the solder mask from the trace leading to pin 4.
Tack solder one end of a short length of wire (or resistor lead) to the bare trace. Solder the other end to U18 pin 5. This connects U18 pin 5 to U2 pin 18. You may choose an alternate method. Just be sure to connect the trace from the "trace through hole dot" to U18 pin 5.
Reference the right picture.
On the component side of the board, locate U2 pin 13 (top right hand corner of U2). Slightly higher and to the right is a via "trace through hole" with a trace running straight down. Cut this trace to separate the via from the trace. In the picture below, the blue/black dot marks the location to cut.
On the component side, jumper from the via noted in step 5 to pad E4 (red wire in picture below). This connects jumper pad E4 to U2 pin 21.
On the component side, notice the large GROUND trace that runs down the board just to the right of the ROM sockets. To the right of the U2 ROM socket, scrape the solder mask from this large ground trace and add a jumper wire from this trace to pad E3 (orange wire/white tracer in picture below. Note that in this instance, U3 was also removed and the ground pad of U3 is used as a jumper point). This connects U2 pin 20 to ground.
Use your multimeter to verify that continuity exists between jumpered points.

Then there are a few more pictures.

If I am reading this correctly, The correct jumpers are then:

E6-7
E8-10
Cut trace from U18 pin4 - then tack the trace side (not the U18-pin4 side) to U18 pin 5 (thus connecting U18p5 to U2p18.
Cut another trace close to U2 pin13
Jumper via from that trace cut to E4
E3 to gnd (thus connecting U2p20 to ground)

Considering here it doesn't sound like much but I don't want to cut the wrong things. I can always repair if I do but wouold rather get it right the first time. Unlike many of you guys I don't have spare old Bally MPUs sitting around (and if I did I'd probably spend too much time getting them all working for the heck of it. Speaking of that I need to order a few spare 6800s.

#23 9 years ago

you can use pinwiki, but frankly it's the king of confusion in my eye.
Here's the instructions for doing the single 2732 EPROM at u2 from my original notes and documents.

Mod2: Single 2732 at U2 on a Bally -17 or Stern M-100 MPU board.
Note this modification is an excellent choice for -17 and M100 MPU boards because it uses a single 2732 EPROM at U2 instead of two ROMs at U2 and U6. This is especially helpful because these boards often need their chip sockets replaced, so using one chip instead of two means less sockets to deal with. This modification combines the two original 9316 ROMs at U2 and U6 into one single 2732 EPROM at location U2. This works only for the early 1977 to 1979 games using 9316s at U2/U6. (Six games which include Black Jack, Night Rider, Mata Hari, Bobby Orr Power Play, Evel Knievel, Eight Ball, plus some Stern M100 games.)

Note this mod still allows the use of Leon's Test 2716 EPROM at U6 without any adaptor (just plug the 2716 directly into U6).

To combine the original 9316 (or 2716) U2 and U6 ROM computer files into a single 2732 U2 ROM file, use the following DOS command:

COPY /B U2ROM.716 + U6ROM.716 U2COMBO.732

Make sure you use the "/B" option in the copy command, as shown above. This binary copy command will combine the two files into one. Or you may just download the Bally -17 2732c Zip file with all these conversions for the six Bally games already done. Stern M100 software is already formatted for a single U2.732 in this Stern M100 2732c Zip file

In addition to the jumpers listed above (6-7, 8-10), you must also make the following cuts and jumps to the -17 or M100 board to use this configuration.

1. Make sure jumpers E6-E7 and E8-E10 are in place.
2. Remove any jumpers at E3-E4, and E1-E2.
3. On the solder side of the board, cut the trace leading to U18 pin 4.
4. On the solder side of the board, run a jumper from the via above U3 pin 6 (that had its trace cut in the prior step) to U18 pin 5. This connects U18 pin 5 to U2 pin 18.
5. On the componet side of the board, find U2 pin 13 (top right hand corner). Slightly higher and to the right is a via ("trace thru dot") with a trace going straight down. Cut this trace to separate the via from this trace.
6. On the component side of the board, run a jumper from the above via ("trace thru dot") to jumper pad E4. This connects jumper pad E4 to U2 pin 21.
7. On the component side of the board, notice the large GND trace that runs to the right of the ROM sockets. To the right of the U2 ROM socket, scrape the green solder mask from this large GND trace and jump a wire from this GND trace to the jumper pad E3. This connects U2 pin 20 to ground.

Text copyright by [email protected]

1 week later
#24 9 years ago

Thanks for posting that again Clay.

I almost converted to two 2732s so I could put in home roms. Looks like it takes 2-2732s to do home roms. I went ahead with the one-2732 chip setup described here. I might redo the board so I can put in home roms but I'll wait for now. Board seems to be staying on without issues now. I replaced chip sockets with both leaf style and sip machined sockets. At first I had a locked-on LED but retraced my steps for the previous 9316-2716 rework and had missed one cut trace I had to reconnect. The main reason I might not do double 2732s to add the Home roms would be that I'd again have to go back and recheck all these changes. Nonetheless, the original issue appears to be fixed.

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