Sounds like a massive scam lol an upstart with ZERO online presence and not known at any shows or anything? Not even once ounce of PR?

HARD PASS.

They have a Facebook page which was JUST MADE on April 21st! They claim they’ve done some zoom calls with Roger Sharpe. In 5 months we’re supposed to believe this out-of-the-blue company has any real capabilities of making “revolutionary, industry-changing games”

Clout-chasing as a substitute (i.e. excuse) for have any real credibility.

they were on Poorman's Man Pinball Podcast

- will be a Kickstarter at $10kUSD limited to 300 units to be launched was to be Oct 2021 and now around March 2022
- pay half to kickstarter = $5k USD and then $5k USD and then you have to pay shipping on top
- suggested to be space theme, non licensed like a Houdini type open license
- husband and wife team and don't think they own any games
- haven't built a pinball yet
- hasn't looked into sheds yet
- have a number of patents for new pinball tech in the process

http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/ols/auspat/quickSearch.do?queryString=ian+bartos&resultsPerPage=

Ballarama (resized).png

Hi Morgoth00 Isochronic_Frost swinks I thought I replied some time ago but it seems to have gone awol. We're real and looking to offer some new challenges. We're all socialed and webbed up so chat more here or book a video call on our Web page. Keep an eye open for developments. We're not going fast but we are progressing. Cheers

Will all 300 machines be built prior to the kickstarter? Otherwise.....

After everything with Skit-B, Zidware, Heighway, and Deeproot....and to a somewhat lesser but still troubling degree, Haggis....anyone would have to be an idiot to put money into your company at this point expecting to get a product. If you wanted us to fund your startup costs for your business, you should've been here about a decade ago.

Sell ownership shares in your company, let people take the actual risk, and benefit, of getting in on the ground floor. The pinball community has been screwed, intentionally or unintentionally, enough by guys that *think* or *wish* they could actually build product, and then never figure out how to make it happen. Tired of seeing my fellow collectors losing their money this way.

Hi Frax yes lots of bad news and sorry for everyone. That's the environment we have to work in. Only other choice is not to try.

I for one tried to reach out via email and was just steered to respond via webchat only as you felt this is the only way to get to know someone and you never acknowledged my ideas, tips and info given to you - which is alarm bells. You have to be open to using different mediums and have those discussions by whatever people feel comfortable with. I get you have some patents in progress and hence are protective of information and dare say you record video chats to protect yourselves.

I agree totally with Frax - kickstarters and people funding the business will not work - where is the guarantee of people's money.

My recommendation is design a game and reveal it and then launch your kickstarter if you must showing the wow, then try and gather support or build smaller numbers of games at your expense in a smaller workshop like Riot Pinball. But your price of $10k USD + freight is even more than Haggis pins and beyond JJP and other companies who are established companies. I think your product is already targeting the LE buyers and based on the interview you don't want to show much of the game just tidbits - you just won't get the support.

Why not design a game and get Haggis to build giving you a head start and get more self sufficient for game 2.

How about on Pinside and Facebook share with the community what games you own and some art samples etc.

Seriously guys - I don’t want to be a downer, but I’ve been in the hobby (and in business) for 35 years, and that podcast was the worst business proposal I’ve ever heard.

Just totally unaware of the previous 10 years history in pinball - all the failed startups and “we’re gonna” guys.

The alarm bells fell off their brackets when you proposed selling 300 games at $10,000 USD.

Haggis Pinball struggled to sell 250 Fathom Mermaids (an updated remake of one of the best pinball titles ever) for $8900 USD, shipped to the US. Dealer orders made up the last sales of that title. And that’s a proven package. I believe they sold 50ish of their first game, Celts, and it looks pretty fun and well built.

If you want to know how to do it, watch the Spooky Pinball documentary “Things that Go Bump in The Night” (free on Vimeo if you search hard enough).

If you can’t do it the Spooky way, I would suggest forgetting about it and moving on.

rd

You would be far better off designing a game for the P3 platform. At least then you can sell it in the $3k range.

Why?

It sounds like wishful thinking, rather than an actual, solid business plan.

Have you tried to secure a business loan by presenting potential lenders with a business plan? You're talking millions of dollars in startup costs here. No kickstarter or preorder model is going to cover a venture like this. We've already seen multiple failures with this approach, and the pinball community is not a piggy bank. The community has been burned too many times now for that.

Once you have an actual working game with a solid business plan on how to build more, then people might start to take things a bit more seriously.

Or, you don't have to manufacture the game yourself--Stern, Spooky, (and it sounds like CGC, after @benheck's game) could potentially do a contract game.

Hi and thanks everyone for your comments. Yes it is a hard product to get started. A complex bugger. Don't write us off altogether though. At least be open enough to look at what we present as we go. If there's enough interest then everyone wins. We can't make you back development or order games. It's no loss to you, only our own development costs.

It is very easy to look at what can go wrong and we all know there's been some crap happening. For every negative though we feel we have much more positive support - and those supporters don't usually run out and comment. Go Spooky pinball - great success story. We plan to come through with the goods just the same.

The few people willing to fund something like this have ben burned, hard, over the last 10 years. Now everyone is scared and will not fund this.

With that company name, I though you might be local

I listened to the podcast and just heard red flags everywhere

https://poormanspinballpodcast.libsyn.com/episode-105-ian-and-barbra-join-drew

Why do people want to jump into incredibly complex manufacturing before finishing one personal homebrew game?

This isn't exactly Charlie putting his life savings into Spooky and not charging people till games were being prepped for delivery.

What?

... WHAT?

“Welp doing business the right way is hard so please fund everything and then we’ll try to make a game if we can, maybe. BUT we have super big ideas!!”

It sounds like you have 100% no idea what you’re talking about. Have you even spoken with other startup pinball companies and heard their horror stories of how many millions of dollars is needed to actually get a game into production?

At first I wrote you off as just a scam, but now it seems like you’re nearing grifter territory.

We have 2 companies this year already scamming people and talking massive game. deeproot had a genuine facility behind them and still crashed and burned.

This may seem like tough talk and very negative, even visceral reactions, but take a moment to actually ACCEPT AND UNDERSTAND the criticisms you’re receiving. Your “no, we’re different, don’t be mean” attitude comes off as arrogant and dismissive to the exact CUSTOMERS you are hoping will pay you $10k for a mythical machine.

Respect and understand this community, else face a spectacular failure before you even get off the ground.

Not intending to be arrogant at all sorry Isochronic_Frost I do hear all your comments and agree totally that there has been shit dealt out to the pinball community. I don't think it's too arrogant to keep working towards offering something new to the community. It's either that or stop. If you look at the numbers we're aiming to raise 4 million Aus $. We know we're doing something big. By all means keep on keeping people safe. Don't take an order spot from someone who wants one though. Choose a spot for a call on the webpage. Kick some ideas around.

Great!
So you have a design worked out, work space arranged, parts sourcing set up, shipping, delivery and support figured out, and figured the necessary labor costs.
And based on all that, you have a detailed business plan and production budget, which totals $4 million. Including taxes.

Now all you need to do is set up the funding through legitimate venture capital and/or business and personal loans or lines of credit.

During organization and set up, show off your prototype and early production games so we can see what the product is all about and form an opinion.

Then, when you have the first games built and ready to ship, let us know the cost - and maybe we'll buy.

I love a dreamer as much as the next person but stop dreaming with other people's money.

Agree, and based on the podcast:
- game sounds like concept, ideas & dreams,
- no game made yet,
- haven't looked at rental build space as was basing on looking around a few years ago - price and availability could be an issue
- and sounds like no one in the team experienced in mass manufacturing of large complex items like a pinball and basing production from knowledge in the door lock and handle industry.

I am struggling to see you Ballarama can cost a product and your production space, tooling when you have no production staff or knowledge in building a pinball game or mass producing a large complex product not to mention then electrical certification = delays, etc.

And for the buyer they have to add freight costs from Melbourne / Australia to around Aus or around the World on top of the $10k USD.

You either have alot of meat on the bone included in that $10k USD per game or alot of hope / positive thinking that you won't blow out.

That said nothing wrong with dreams, goals and positive thinking, but there has to be some realism in there and then believe in yourself enough = mortgage everything you have to support the venture not just rely on everyone else's hard earned cash. It also can't be viewed as a CAPEX venture where the shed, tooling, wages is all paid off with the build of one game x 300 in a 2 year period.

Awesome comments.. Great discussion. Thanks all!

Ballarama, if you're looking for a designer, I heard JPop is looking for work.

Well we're all used to working remotely these days! (Laugh) Its been pretty hard in Aus, my first night out to pinball yesterday! Friggin Yea!

It must be the drugs i am taking for a pinched nerve in my neck, but am i hearing this right, no game experience, no product and wants $4 Million to set up a company, go to the bank and ask them, put your own money on the line, Tell you what i will start you off with $500k and put a mortgage on your house, that will keep you honest

Honestly, this is a great way to get into creating pinball. All the hard work of the system is done, you just need to design your upper playfield module and software. Multimorphic will support you all the way and there is a whole community of people out there to help you as well.

When I first read this I thought it was called Ballerpinball, after the somewhat infamous Big Baller Brand.

I think you need to send a DM to Iceman, he’ll invest in anything.

I one time sent away $5k to get a virtual pinball machine. It never came. This guy was building the best machines there were at the time. Actual shipping product. Now being paid back at $100 every few months (the 50 year plan as I call it).

I don’t enjoy bashing on fellow entrepreneurs, but “I like pinball and we are going to do some cool things if you give us some money” is not exactly a great sales pitch to anyone. Optimism is needed in any new venture, I get that. But you are coming on to this community that has been burned multiple times and say “well that’s too bad but we are different”. Won’t show how you are different. Generic website with stock pictures of pinball, no prior experience making a pinball, obligatory head shots, not even a sketch concept.

Put yourself in our position. Why on earth should any of us believe you will ever ship a product of any kind whatsoever that we would actually want ?

You have to prove yourself in some way other than “I have an idea”. If you have run any other business before you should know that. And really if all it is is “I have an idea” and no experience to back it up then it’s gonna be self funded for a long time yourself on your own sweat equity until you can convince anyone else they have any reasonable chance of every seeing product or their money back.

I say this like everyone above as a simple dose of reality. You are going to trip so many times on your way to anything out the door you would not otherwise believe it. So many things will go wrong you didn’t plan for you won’t believe that either. Challenges you couldn’t even dream up will arise. And if none of this is wringing a bell right now then it is indeed arrogance and foolhardy at that for both yourself and everyone else that puts money into this.

Good luck. I mean it. Spend 6 months and make a prototype of what you are dreaming up and then maybe both you and we will have a better idea of what you can do and what it’s ultimate chance of success is.

Translation: Thanks for the advice guys but we are going to do what we think is best despite it being a bad idea.

There is only ever one recipe for success: execute. The implied corollary is: deliver something of value. Do those and nobody cares how you got there.

The problem so far has been almost entirely on execution. If you don’t execute at the scale for which people gave you money then it’s all over for your customers, investors, and founders.

Any startup has to have an amount of optimism mixed with insanity behind it because the risk of failure is so high. But optimism isn’t gonna float the boat if you don’t know how to build a boat.

Sorry to say but this one is a hard pass and should be for everyone. I hope they succeed, but I strongly suspect the business ends at the website and advances no further

I don't even know why Ballarama is thinking so small. Why not just build a time machine and kickstart that?

You haven't made a single game. You aren't a manufacturer. This is complete BS.

ballarama bs (resized).png

Palmer says... Thanks for the advice guys but we are going to do what we think is best despite it being a bad idea.

A bit harsh mate. We hear you all loud and clear. One great way to appease you all would be to say - ok, we're not going ahead. The other extreme would be to say - we're going to stump up with everything alone and only surface again when we have 300 fully boxed games ready to sell. I reckon somewhere in between is where we'll end up. We will gauge interest as time goes by and work towards wherever it is we have to be. Admittedly we haven't quite worked out where that point will be yet. We haven't finished planning and completing our offering yet. But when we do offer games for sale, it will be because we know we can deliver. We couldn't live with ourselves not coming through. And looking back on our careers, there's no times we didn't finish what we started.

I recommend the box up 300 games first approach

Bringing vonnie d to mind.

Seriously, Kickstarter is not the way to go on this. Take the advice being given here - it is solid advice. Come back in 5 years with boxed machines

I'm genuinely interested to see how you go.

I agree with a lot of above....I think the best option is to see some models in the flesh ready to go before launching.

The thing I've come to realise...it's all about people. Resources come second I feel.

And people don't generally get on forever.

So you need to tick all boxes by yourself....theme, art, sound, design...the whole box and dice.

I don't know anyone capable of this currently in Australia anyway., regardless of how cashed up you are.

All the best with it.

THIS ^ A few good capable organized passionate people are what make a company work (at least at the start). Every failure we have seen thus far is a failure to execute, no matter the resources. Spooky did it on $50K because they were competent. Deeproot failed in $40M because they were not. I’m not saying this is possible on zero capital, but sweat equity goes a long long way towards proving oneself out. The fact this company would go on posting how they are 1 of 2 pinball manufacturers in Australia should be a huge red flag right there. One claims things when they have been accomplished, not before. And one takes money when machines have been accomplished not before. I don’t care much whether they can live with themselves or not. I care my money results in a machine being delivered to my door. Stern as boring as they may be accomplish that on a continuing basis. Thus they get my money

Thanks KJS We sure don't expect complete positivity. A little leaning towards a possible positive outcome is rewarding.

While I like the sentiment, having done about 70% of a prototype, your about 0.05% there. Posting a video of unboxing basic parts like rubbers just shows the lack of very basic knowledge of pinball manufacturing.

What are you using for a boardset?

Who is manufacturing your parts?

Who's coding it? Have they coded pinball before?

Whose designing the rules? What experience do they have?

What machines do you own? Which ones inspire you?

Where is your at least partially functioning prototype?

These are just a small portion of questions that should already have clear answers posted somewhere. Even if they were, you likely wouldn't get any investors short of the Pinsider Iceman.

on their facebook page they say one of their sources for parts is in Taiwan
they do have one person on their team that has made a nice quality homebrew machine

Grants first homebrew battle pin looks sweet and and his next homebrew Get Smart has loads of potential but the concerns are more the manufacturer to be

- I saw he invested in a set of Cobrapin Board Set
- if he is sourcing parts from Taiwan then I reckon it will be Homepin parts
- the issue is people are trying to engage but there is no discussion back which doesn't go well in a forum (a place of discussion).
- the podcast was done too early and come across more like - we have got dreams.
- your Facebook / Instagram are to focused on buzz words and getting followers but reckon that a very small percentage of those are actual pinheads - so build a awesome game and show it off then do your hype - do not concentrate on media at this early stage as the pinheads want to see build results not chatter about horse themed pins and other random stuff.
- look at Damian he documented building a game before switching to launching a company and that built up a following

This is all very confusing… if you are gonna make a product show it… I might be interested but too many unknowns right now.

What’s the homebrew battle pin?

and this is the cone of silence mech for his Get Smart game

Battle pin looks fun! Very joust like , but looks like you can attack your opponent maybe with stuff like reverse flippers?

Basically half way there

FF753819-7EC4-4AB1-9D46-32B4A806A0BD.gif

Where do I send my $10K to??

Here's some advice: Fire your marketing person. She's bilking you of whatever money you have. Nobody wants to see you take parts out of a box.

Build a prototype, come back in two years, and then we can talk.

To gather funding for our innovative projects, we have chosen to do this over a crowdfunding platform Kickstarter.

To answer some of your initial questions you might have, here are some pros and cons of us as a small business using a Kickstarter.

PROS: Everything for us
CONS: Everything for you
Screen Shot 2021-11-13 at 6.54.41 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-11-13 at 6.54.52 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-11-13 at 6.54.58 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-11-13 at 6.55.05 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-11-13 at 6.55.11 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-11-13 at 6.55.22 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-11-13 at 6.55.28 AM (resized).png