Backglass delamination sealing?

(Topic ID: 197911)

Backglass delamination sealing?


By PinballFever

1 year ago



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  • 67 posts
  • 14 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 months ago by ajfclark
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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#1 1 year ago

I've been reading posts and watching the videos about sealing your backglass with Krylon Triple Thick.

Some posts mention injecting Superglue or Triplethick or something similiar into the delaminated areas with a thin hypodermic needle.

The reason I ask this is I've seen it posted where the delaminated parts will come back up even if you TT the glass.

What do you Pinsiders do to ensure this doesn't happen?

I'm thinking of just laying one coat of TT then injecting (any recommendations?) into the delaminated parts after the first coat has set some but isn't hard yet then lay more coats to seal it. I can also use an exacto knife later to cut or chisel out the bad areas.

This is a one time shot for me because there aren't many of this glass and there's also the chance the spray will scatter some flakes if I'm not careful.

(This is a 1953 Williams backglass that has most of the artwork intact with some missing paint, cracks and some parts with delaminated flakes about 1/8 to 1/4 inch at the biggest)

Thanks,
Bruce

#4 1 year ago

Wayne, I'm afraid to try gluing the delamination too and I like your suggestion. Do you use small pieces of the glad wrap a bit bigger than the delaminated areas instead of doing the whole glass like I've seen done in some posts? Weigh or put something on the wrap for 24 hours?

I've also read that it's better to wait until the triple thick is somewhat set to prevent the loose paint from moving before applying the glad wrap and tampering it?

ForceFlow, I think Wayne's suggestion is the safest way to do this glass and I don't have a spare backglass to practice on.

Thanks,
Bruce

#7 1 year ago

ForceFlow, I don't have the steadiest hands and would rather not glue the delaminated areas first. I'm thinking I can use an exacto knife to cut out any bad or messed up areas after the triple thick has dried. I'm planning to scan/repair the bad areas in Photoshop Elements then print waterslide decals for the repair.

Wayne, it sounds like there would be less movement if you stretch the gladwrap across the glass. I'd think the flakes would shift if you tamp the gladwrap down while the triple thick is wet. Wouldn't it be better to wait say 30 minutes or so until the triple thick sets some but isn't hard yet to apply and tamp down the wrap? What about the wrinkles in the triple thick from the gladwrap? Would there be a problem with applying waterslide decals to the wrinkled areas? Can the wrinkles be smoothed out? Also wouldn't there be less wrinkles if you apply and tamp the gladwrap after the triple thick has set some?

I plan to leave the bg side as is even if it's dirty from the lightbox panel rubbing against it for the reasons you mentioned and thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll post pictures showing what it looks like after work today.

Thanks again,
Bruce

#15 1 year ago

I think there are too many small delaminated flakes to glue and that it would be better to just spray the triple thick then possibly apply gladwrap depending on what the triple thick looks like behind missing paint. I'm going to practice with a piece of clear glass first to get a feel of what it's like.

This may be a dumb question but better to ask and be sure. Do you apply the gladwrap and tamp while the triple thick is wet, Wayne?

Here is what I speak of. I think it's doable. My only concern is I want the areas missing paint to be clear, not showing wrinkled triple thick behind them or distorting the waterslide decals I'm planning to put behind them.

Bruce

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#19 1 year ago
Quoted from wayner:

Never a dumb question Bruce. Yes sequence is horizontal & vertical spray; then apply gladwrap across bg to affected areas; then tamp down; remove gladwrap + 24 hours.

Thanks Wayne, I'll practice this sequence on a piece of glass first to get an idea of how to do it.

Quoted from ForceFlow:

In this case, I'd consider it closer flaking, rather than delaminating (which usually implies larger pieces about the size of a coin or bigger). So yes, spraying would probably be easier here. Obviously, start with a gentle misting, so as not to blow the flakes out of place.

Agreed. I wasn't sure what to call it and I'll be careful when I spray the glass.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Use pieces of mylar cut to size. Easiest and most effective method for me.

I was wondering about using a piece of plastic like mylar instead of the gladwrap. Maybe the triple thick would be flatter/smoother? The mylar won't stick to the triple thick?

Something else I was thinking of would be to use something like mylar on top of the gladwrap so the triple thick will be flatter and smoother instead of wrinkled. Would that work too? (apply the gladwrap then mylar or plastic on top of it or maybe pieces of the plastic)

Your responses are very helpful, thanks guys.
Bruce

2 weeks later
#22 1 year ago

Thanks Wayne and Forceflow. I've learned a lot from you guys and have a couple of questions.

1. How much time is needed to apply the glad wrap and do you use your fingers to do the tamping? I plan to practice with scrap glass first but would like to have an idea how much time I need.

2. I had an idea where I could apply the glad wrap to a piece of plexiglass making it smooth then applying the glad wrap/plexiglass to tamp down the bad areas but this could be problematic and it could complicate the process. It seems I would need to use two sheets of the glad wrap, to cover the top half and bottom half of the glass.
(Also do you only tamp down and smooth the bad areas and leave the other areas of glad wrap alone. Let it settle flat on the glass or tamp it all down?)

This is what I've learned from watching youtube videos and reading all the pinside articles plus Clay's tutorial. (Clay's tutorial is very good)

1. Practice first until you have experience laying down the coats you need before doing the glass itself. (and maybe have 2 cans ready in case one stops working because you need to work quickly.

2. You only have a little time (1 minute?) and have to work quickly to apply the glad wrap and tamp down the bad areas while it's wet.

3. I've read that spraying the triple thick when it's cooler like 60 degrees will slow down the dry time which seems like good advice.

That's all I can think of, anything else to add?

Thanks,
Bruce

#24 1 year ago

Wayne
Got it. Thanks again for your help.

Will do it hopefully this week and post the result.

Bruce

3 weeks later
#26 1 year ago

I'm planning to triple thick my glass this Wednesday and have a question about covering up the score windows.

After covering the score windows then laying down two coats, do you remove the covers before applying the plastic wrap? Use a razor around the edges to be sure it doesn't pull up triple thick/paint?

I'm thinking of cutting blue painter's tape into circles to cover the two circular score windows. (Replay and Points score reels)

Bruce

#27 1 year ago

Also what is the best way to move the backglass after you've triple thicked it? I would want to move it inside where it's warmer. Can I move it after a few hours?

Bruce

#29 1 year ago

I'm gonna experiment with a piece of plate glass to be sure.

Bruce

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

When I covered windows, I only pulled up the tape after the triple thick cured, and used an xacto knife to cut it free after. However, you're still left with somewhat of a ragged/visible edge.

Have you tried pulling up or removing the tape while the triple thick is still wet? Wouldn't that work? I'm concerned about the Glad wrap covering the tape and was thinking of removing the tape then laying down the Glad wrap. Another alternative would be to position the Glad wrap around the tape so it's easier to remove later?

I can also attach an exacto blade to my soldering iron to make a hot knife so I can easily cut out parts of the triple thick after it's cured.

I would prefer to cover the score windows with tape or something because there are score reels behind the two score windows and two bulbs lighting them up.

Thanks,
Bruce

#35 1 year ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Concerned about what? I don't see a problem with laying down plastic wrap over the tape. It won't adhere unless there is enough triple thick over the tape.

Ok that means I should leave it 24 hours then remove the plastic wrap and the tape? I could make a hot knife and cut the triple thick around the tape before pulling it off.

Bruce

#38 1 year ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Quoted from PinballFever:
Ok that means I should leave it 24 hours then remove the plastic wrap and the tape?
Yep.

Ok I'll try that.

Quoted from ForceFlow:

Quoted from PinballFever:
I could make a hot knife and cut the triple thick around the tape before pulling it off.
I haven't heard of anyone trying that before, so I have no idea what affect that may have.

I've seen posts about using a hot knife here. http://www.seriousviewers.com/atwpin/atwbg.htm

Quoted from Darcy:

I have sprayed the Triple Thick right over the clear openings for the score reels many times. If you spray the TT in the right conditions most people would not notice the TT on the Score openings.

I'm aware this can be done. I would prefer to cover the score windows but will consider spraying over them. I guess another option would be to cut out the triple thick over the score windows with a hot knife afterwards?

Quoted from Darcy:

Also like to make sure that the edges of the glass are also coated with TT, to help seal the artwork to the glass.

Noted, thanks for the tip.

Bruce

#39 1 year ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Quoted from PinballFever:
Also what is the best way to move the backglass after you've triple thicked it? I would want to move it inside where it's warmer. Can I move it after a few hours?
Bruce
I usually move it inside after about 15 minutes when it starts to set.

How do you move it? Do you wear gloves? Avoid touching the edges or is it safe at that time?

Bruce

#42 1 year ago
Quoted from hailrazer:

Then just lift them off, easy peasy.

Do you lift them off immediately after spraying the triple thick while it's wet? Seems it would be easier than using tape.

Is there a chance of compromising the triple thick's integrity if there's holes in it after curing?

Bruce

1 week later
#44 1 year ago

I sprayed it this afternoon when I had the time and it was a clear low wind day.

The two round score holes were covered with pennies then immediately removed after spraying before I applied the wrap.

I had to spray closer than a foot to try to get good coats. I think there was a slight wind deflecting the spray when I tried from further away.

I wasn't able to get all of them tamped down because of the bubbles underneath the wrap but I got most of them. Will remove the wrap tomorrow after work and post a photo of the result.

Bruce

1953 GC BG Triple Thicked (resized).jpg

#45 1 year ago

I slowly and carefully removed the wrap.

The bottom half is good. The top half has some bubbles around a half inch or so in diameter underneath the triple thick.

Do you suggest puncturing the bubbles with a pin to let the air out then spraying a couple more coats?

Thanks,
Bruce

#46 1 year ago

Or maybe use a syringe to draw the air out of the bubbles? What do you guys do with the bubbles under the TT after removing the wrap?

Also I didn't cover the front of the BG so there's a light spray of TT there. Can I remove/dissolve it with naptha?

Bruce

#47 1 year ago

Here is the glass.

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#49 1 year ago

I'm able to carefully stick a needle in from the side in the bubble then press the bubbles flat releasing the air.

Will do that with the rest of the bubbles after work today then spray another couple coats to seal it further.

Bruce

#51 1 year ago

The bubbles seem to be between the triple thick and glass/paint. I need to flatten them and sticking a needle in to release the air seems to be doing the trick. The bubbles are soft. Not brittle or breakable (yet). Will they become brittle in time? I think I need to do this while they're soft before it's fully cured.

Do they go down by themselves? I kind of doubt they do.

I'm also thinking of covering them with wrap and putting something like a book on them to keep them flat.

First photo shows the bubbles and second photo shows three bubbles I stuck the needle in and was able to flatten.

Bruce

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#53 1 year ago

I stuck a needle in all the bubbles I could find and flattened them.

I'm thinking of putting wrap on after work today and putting books on to make sure they're all flat before I spray a couple more coats. Is there a chance of the wrap sticking to the TT or will it come off easily now? What do you think about the book idea?

Thanks,
Bruce

#54 1 year ago

The bubbles were from air trapped under the wrap. I've punctured and flattened them.

One last area I overlooked that's still a problem. (It's hard to see where the bad areas are after the wrap is down.)

That area in this photo is covered with TT but the flakes are still the same.I'm thinking of putting down wrap and putting something flat like a book to flatten them for a day before spraying a couple thick coats to seal it for good.

Bruce

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#55 1 year ago

The TT bubbles were because air was trapped underneath the wrap. I first tried gently pressing one of them down while they were soft and saw a bit of paint pulled so I carefully punctured the bubbles with a needle to release the air then tamped them flat.

If you lift the wrap ANYWHERE after it *touches* the wet triple thick, the paint will peel RIGHT off with the TT/wrap. Fortunately it was at the edge of the glass and I was able to tamp that paint back down successfully.

There was very little loss of paint or damage after doing all this and it seems the TT/paint is stable/sealed at this time. Almost all the damage and loss you see was already there before I triple thicked the glass.

I plan to spray a couple more heavier coats this weekend to seal it for good.

Bruce

First photo shows the current state of my backglass and the second photo shows it before triple thick was applied.

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#58 1 year ago
Quoted from pacmanretro:

Almost looks like a super thick layer was sprayed down (which softened original paint), then had plastic wrap smashed ontop of it and pulled back off; causing the softened original paint to pull up off the glass leaving new bubbles and mess. No?

No. It was actually a couple thin wet coats of triple thick. The wrap with the bubbles underneath it was never pulled back off once applied until 24 hours later. I think the air bubbles became embedded in the triple thick like ForceFlow asked.

Quoted from pacmanretro:

As far as how to address large paint bubbles that are there to start with...well, I don't have any better an answer. Mine were kind of already flaky, so I sprayed to keep it from getting worse as best I could.

There weren't paint bubbles to start with. These were air pockets accidentally trapped underneath the first sheet of wrap that I applied to the top half causing the bubbles. The second sheet of wrap was successfully applied over the bottom half of the glass without air bubbles under it.

Quoted from pacmanretro:

Have had bubbles on a couple more modern BG and I didn't pop or flatten them. I sprayed over them which means they won't flake off, but if you pressed them, they would probably crumble. Does concern me leaving a bubble like that as I have wondered if the bubble could get bigger without being stuck to glass

I was concerned about that too. I wanted to flatten them while they were soft before they became brittle. They're flat now as you can see.

My next plan is to spray a couple more coats to fill in the ridges and depressions. I think that should seal it for good.

Bruce

#60 1 year ago
Quoted from pacmanretro:

Interesting...I wonder if the air pocket between the paint and wrap traped some fumes. Maybe that caused paint to soften and come up like that.

The thin bubble films looked clear with the paint still flat on the glass that I could see. Look at the closeup photo of the bubbles. It is possible the paint formed bubbles but it didn't look that way to me.

Quoted from pacmanretro:

Best wishes on the final outcome, sincerely. I know how frustrated and nervous working on those older/rarer glasses can be...

Thanks. I think it could have been much worse. It's all flat and stays down with a thin film of cured triple thick over it with almost no paint loss or damage. I can touch it anywhere and it stays. There may be issues in the future after this but the alternative was to leave it as is with the paint peeling, cracking and falling off...

Bruce

#61 1 year ago

I was planning to spray a couple more coats and took "before" photos at an angle for comparison "after" photos at the same angle but it's too cold to spray at this time. I'll post the "after" photos when it's warm enough to spray again.

The wrinkles are from when I tamped down the wrap all over the glass so I wouldn't miss a spot.

Bruce

IMG_20171118_143426077 (resized).jpg

IMG_20171118_143227387 (resized).jpg

4 months later
#62 10 months ago

Spring is coming! I'm planning to repair this backglass which I'll start a new topic for.

In the meantime here is a photo of the glass lit up BEFORE I removed it from the backbox for TTing. The damage was quite extensive but the artwork was still good which makes me think a repair CAN be done. (You can see the lightboard showing through the damaged sections. When get a chance I plan to take photos of the same areas lit up for comparison)

As a gallery artist turned tech support (which paid much better), I have an eye for color matching. My plan is to repair the damaged sections with waterslide decals then lay the finishing coats of TT to smooth the wrinkles and ridges out.

Spring is coming! (at least it is coming here!)
Bruce

1953 GC BG lit up (resized).jpg

#64 10 months ago

Thanks for the suggestion. Will do that before I start the repair.

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