Backglass delamination sealing?

(Topic ID: 197911)

Backglass delamination sealing?


By PinballFever

1 year ago



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  • 67 posts
  • 14 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 months ago by ajfclark
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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There are 67 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 1 year ago

I've been reading posts and watching the videos about sealing your backglass with Krylon Triple Thick.

Some posts mention injecting Superglue or Triplethick or something similiar into the delaminated areas with a thin hypodermic needle.

The reason I ask this is I've seen it posted where the delaminated parts will come back up even if you TT the glass.

What do you Pinsiders do to ensure this doesn't happen?

I'm thinking of just laying one coat of TT then injecting (any recommendations?) into the delaminated parts after the first coat has set some but isn't hard yet then lay more coats to seal it. I can also use an exacto knife later to cut or chisel out the bad areas.

This is a one time shot for me because there aren't many of this glass and there's also the chance the spray will scatter some flakes if I'm not careful.

(This is a 1953 Williams backglass that has most of the artwork intact with some missing paint, cracks and some parts with delaminated flakes about 1/8 to 1/4 inch at the biggest)

Thanks,
Bruce

#2 1 year ago

I glue the pieces down first, so you can position and lay the loose/delaminating pieces flat. Then use plastic wrap to press the pieces down flat and eliminate air bubbles. You only have a few seconds to do this before the glue starts to set.

It takes some practice, and the results won't always be perfect, but it's worked well for me so far on a number of backglasses I needed to put back together.

After that, triple thick the backglass. You can use it to even out any small ridges that may have formed from pressing down on the glue with the plastic.

I would recommend first trying this on a junk backglass that you might not care too much about.

#3 1 year ago

I would never go to the extent of trying 'to glue' the delaminated components mainly because I have never seen the need & it introduces an additional complication. I have found spraying the triple thick after masking score reels etc then glad wrapping and tampering the glad wrapping to push down any lifted sections does the trick. Remove the glad wrap in 24 hours & all good. I have never experienced any subsequent lifting. I have sealed approx. 12 backglasses using this method.

#4 1 year ago

Wayne, I'm afraid to try gluing the delamination too and I like your suggestion. Do you use small pieces of the glad wrap a bit bigger than the delaminated areas instead of doing the whole glass like I've seen done in some posts? Weigh or put something on the wrap for 24 hours?

I've also read that it's better to wait until the triple thick is somewhat set to prevent the loose paint from moving before applying the glad wrap and tampering it?

ForceFlow, I think Wayne's suggestion is the safest way to do this glass and I don't have a spare backglass to practice on.

Thanks,
Bruce

#5 1 year ago

I started out with just the triple thick and plastic wrap method, and loose pieces tended to shift from the spray, or from trying to seal the whole backglass at once with plastic wrap.

Gluing down small areas at a time works much better.

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballFever:

Wayne, I'm afraid to try gluing the delamination too and I like your suggestion. Do you use small pieces of the glad wrap a bit bigger than the delaminated areas instead of doing the whole glass like I've seen done in some posts? Weigh or put something on the wrap for 24 hours?
I've also read that it's better to wait until the triple thick is somewhat set to prevent the loose paint from moving before applying the glad wrap and tampering it?
ForceFlow, I think Wayne's suggestion is the safest way to do this glass and I don't have a spare backglass to practice on.
Thanks,
Bruce

For the area concerned Bruce I place a gladwrap strip across the bg & to the sides-that way you can get some evenness/ tension on the gladwrap. As ForceFlow indicates small/loose pieces are not in my experience satisfactory. No weights necessary. I place the gladwrap on straight after the spraying when the triple thick is still wet & tamp down the gladwrap/delam sections with either my finger or a soft tip blunt object. Again in my experience not too much to go wrong. One other issue I rarely 'clean' the bg side to be triple cleared particularly in delam areas. Any tampering to clean can make a bad situation worse! I am sure you will accomplish it successfully.

#7 1 year ago

ForceFlow, I don't have the steadiest hands and would rather not glue the delaminated areas first. I'm thinking I can use an exacto knife to cut out any bad or messed up areas after the triple thick has dried. I'm planning to scan/repair the bad areas in Photoshop Elements then print waterslide decals for the repair.

Wayne, it sounds like there would be less movement if you stretch the gladwrap across the glass. I'd think the flakes would shift if you tamp the gladwrap down while the triple thick is wet. Wouldn't it be better to wait say 30 minutes or so until the triple thick sets some but isn't hard yet to apply and tamp down the wrap? What about the wrinkles in the triple thick from the gladwrap? Would there be a problem with applying waterslide decals to the wrinkled areas? Can the wrinkles be smoothed out? Also wouldn't there be less wrinkles if you apply and tamp the gladwrap after the triple thick has set some?

I plan to leave the bg side as is even if it's dirty from the lightbox panel rubbing against it for the reasons you mentioned and thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll post pictures showing what it looks like after work today.

Thanks again,
Bruce

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballFever:

I'm thinking I can use an exacto knife to cut out any bad or messed up areas after the triple thick has dried.

I would not recommend that unless there is a large gap of at least 2mm. Otherwise, you will likely damage the paint during the process of cutting. I can't speak to what would happen if you tried to pry something off the glass if it has already been triple thicked.

Quoted from PinballFever:

Wayne, it sounds like there would be less movement if you stretch the gladwrap across the glass

Yes, that is why I don't use that technique. It's difficult to both hold things in place and lay down plastic wrap across the entire backglass.

Quoted from PinballFever:

Wouldn't it be better to wait say 30 minutes or so until the triple thick sets some but isn't hard yet to apply and tamp down the wrap?

It only takes a couple minutes to start setting. If you smudge the triple thick too much when that starts to happen, it will disturb/smudge/remove the masking layer where you smudged it. Also, if you start trying to shift pieces around, they will break apart very easily.

It is best not to disturb anything after a minute or two.

Quoted from PinballFever:

I plan to leave the bg side as is even if it's dirty from the lightbox panel rubbing against it for the reasons you mentioned and thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll post pictures showing what it looks like after work today.

It's a judgement call depending on how bad it is. Sometimes, I will start carefully cleaning with a damp q-tip to avoid additional damage. That approach takes time and patience.

#9 1 year ago

Question: Does this whole process of applying Triple Thick onto a backglass that has delaminated areas of artwork (but artwork is still in one piece and attached), allow the delaminated areas to re-attach to the glass? i.e. does Triple Thick wet through the artwork to 'glue' it back to the glass?

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

allow the delaminated areas to re-attach to the glass? i.e. does Triple Thick wet through the artwork to 'glue' it back to the glass?

Not really. The artwork is not porous. Some triple thick can leak/flow in around the edges of the lifted areas, which helps secure it, but that's about it.

You're mostly just securing the back side.

From the front, you will likely see air pockets in lifted areas.

With the superglue technique, the idea is to get some glue into those air pockets, then press down to spread it.

#11 1 year ago

Ah, ok thanks. I tried the old simple re-laminating car tint solution of using clear nail polish to reattach a small area of artwork on a backglass and it seemed to work well. But the slow drying time of nail polish meant I needed to press the artwork often over a 20 minute period to make sure it finally set attached. I have back glasses with large irregular lifted areas and was hoping there was an easier way.

#12 1 year ago

I have sealed about 8 or 10 glasses with TT. Results are usually good to excellent. Longevity varies. You are still not protected from wild temp swings as I had 3 glasses blister when the heat went out in my shop. Now I generally spot seal glasses with TT. The plastic wrap method works but the result on the back side of glass has never been smooth

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballAir:

I have sealed about 8 or 10 glasses with TT. Results are usually good to excellent. Longevity varies. You are still not protected from wild temp swings as I had 3 glasses blister when the heat went out in my shop. Now I generally spot seal glasses with TT. The plastic wrap method works but the result on the back side of glass has never been smooth

How cold did the backglasses get to cause damage? I've sealed many backglasses with Triple Thick, and it works really well in the majority of cases. You never want to use it on a humid day however. I spray it in direct sunlight, and it will dry to the touch within 20 minutes or so. I've never exposed a TT sealed glass to extreme cold. I've seen glasses sealed with CYG disintegrate in extreme cold, but that stuff is much thicker.

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballFever:

Wayne, it sounds like there would be less movement if you stretch the gladwrap across the glass. I'd think the flakes would shift if you tamp the gladwrap down while the triple thick is wet. Wouldn't it be better to wait say 30 minutes or so until the triple thick sets some but isn't hard yet to apply and tamp down the wrap? What about the wrinkles in the triple thick from the gladwrap? Would there be a problem with applying waterslide decals to the wrinkled areas? Can the wrinkles be smoothed out? Also wouldn't there be less wrinkles if you apply and tamp the gladwrap after the triple thick has set some?
I plan to leave the bg side as is even if it's dirty from the lightbox panel rubbing against it for the reasons you mentioned and thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll post pictures showing what it looks like after work today.
Thanks again,
Bruce

Bruce-I have set out my method over which I have had no problems. ForceFlow has a different approach & that is fine. It is all about the gladwrap stretch & dexterity of placing the gladwrap over the delam sections. I just cannot conceive the use of superglue as a forerunner but 'each to their own'. I do not propose to change my approach.

#15 1 year ago

I think there are too many small delaminated flakes to glue and that it would be better to just spray the triple thick then possibly apply gladwrap depending on what the triple thick looks like behind missing paint. I'm going to practice with a piece of clear glass first to get a feel of what it's like.

This may be a dumb question but better to ask and be sure. Do you apply the gladwrap and tamp while the triple thick is wet, Wayne?

Here is what I speak of. I think it's doable. My only concern is I want the areas missing paint to be clear, not showing wrinkled triple thick behind them or distorting the waterslide decals I'm planning to put behind them.

Bruce

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#16 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballFever:

This may be a dumb question but better to ask and be sure. Do you apply the gladwrap and tamp while the triple thick is wet, Wayne?

Never a dumb question Bruce. Yes sequence is horizontal & vertical spray; then apply gladwrap across bg to affected areas; then tamp down; remove gladwrap + 24 hours.

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballFever:

I think there are too many small delaminated flakes to glue and that it would be better to just spray the triple thick then possibly apply gladwrap depending on what the triple thick looks like behind missing paint.

In this case, I'd consider it closer flaking, rather than delaminating (which usually implies larger pieces about the size of a coin or bigger). So yes, spraying would probably be easier here. Obviously, start with a gentle misting, so as not to blow the flakes out of place.

#18 1 year ago

Use pieces of mylar cut to size. Easiest and most effective method for me.

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from wayner:

Never a dumb question Bruce. Yes sequence is horizontal & vertical spray; then apply gladwrap across bg to affected areas; then tamp down; remove gladwrap + 24 hours.

Thanks Wayne, I'll practice this sequence on a piece of glass first to get an idea of how to do it.

Quoted from ForceFlow:

In this case, I'd consider it closer flaking, rather than delaminating (which usually implies larger pieces about the size of a coin or bigger). So yes, spraying would probably be easier here. Obviously, start with a gentle misting, so as not to blow the flakes out of place.

Agreed. I wasn't sure what to call it and I'll be careful when I spray the glass.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Use pieces of mylar cut to size. Easiest and most effective method for me.

I was wondering about using a piece of plastic like mylar instead of the gladwrap. Maybe the triple thick would be flatter/smoother? The mylar won't stick to the triple thick?

Something else I was thinking of would be to use something like mylar on top of the gladwrap so the triple thick will be flatter and smoother instead of wrinkled. Would that work too? (apply the gladwrap then mylar or plastic on top of it or maybe pieces of the plastic)

Your responses are very helpful, thanks guys.
Bruce

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballFever:

I was wondering about using a piece of plastic like mylar instead of the gladwrap. Maybe the triple thick would be flatter/smoother? The mylar won't stick to the triple thick?
Something else I was thinking of would be to use something like mylar on top of the gladwrap so the triple thick will be flatter and smoother instead of wrinkled. Would that work too? (apply the gladwrap then mylar or plastic on top of it or maybe pieces of the plastic)

The reason for the plastic wrap is that it pretty much stays put when laid down, and comes off easily from the triple thick after it has cured. Plus it's cheap and easy to obtain. I haven't really thought about experimenting another material for flattening when using triple thick. I certainly wouldn't use something with an adhesive backing, though.

FYI, you don't necessarily have to use glad wrap. I use the cheaper walmart "great value" brand instead.

Once you remove the plastic wrap, you can even out the ridges left by the wrinkles in the plastic wrap by spraying down some more triple thick and let it dry flat for about a half hour.

1 week later
#21 1 year ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

How cold did the backglasses get to cause damage?

It was freakin' cold.
There was a cold snap here in New England and I would guess my shop got to between 0*F and 5*F.
The glasses peeled in sheets.
Too bad, the reason I got the games was that the glasses were nice.

HOWEVER, they would have likely peeled anyway, TT or not.

1 week later
#22 1 year ago

Thanks Wayne and Forceflow. I've learned a lot from you guys and have a couple of questions.

1. How much time is needed to apply the glad wrap and do you use your fingers to do the tamping? I plan to practice with scrap glass first but would like to have an idea how much time I need.

2. I had an idea where I could apply the glad wrap to a piece of plexiglass making it smooth then applying the glad wrap/plexiglass to tamp down the bad areas but this could be problematic and it could complicate the process. It seems I would need to use two sheets of the glad wrap, to cover the top half and bottom half of the glass.
(Also do you only tamp down and smooth the bad areas and leave the other areas of glad wrap alone. Let it settle flat on the glass or tamp it all down?)

This is what I've learned from watching youtube videos and reading all the pinside articles plus Clay's tutorial. (Clay's tutorial is very good)

1. Practice first until you have experience laying down the coats you need before doing the glass itself. (and maybe have 2 cans ready in case one stops working because you need to work quickly.

2. You only have a little time (1 minute?) and have to work quickly to apply the glad wrap and tamp down the bad areas while it's wet.

3. I've read that spraying the triple thick when it's cooler like 60 degrees will slow down the dry time which seems like good advice.

That's all I can think of, anything else to add?

Thanks,
Bruce

#23 1 year ago

Bruce
I have never found time is an issue with the gladwrap-just work promptly & precisely.

If the flaking is in defined areas yes more than one sheet is ok.

I tamp with my finger or a prod but just a gentle tamp.

A can in my experience goes a long way. If its one bg & a full can no second needed.

#24 1 year ago

Wayne
Got it. Thanks again for your help.

Will do it hopefully this week and post the result.

Bruce

#25 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballAir:

It was freakin' cold.
There was a cold snap here in New England and I would guess my shop got to between 0*F and 5*F.
The glasses peeled in sheets.
Too bad, the reason I got the games was that the glasses were nice.
HOWEVER, they would have likely peeled anyway, TT or not.

I bought some games that were sitting in a guys shed here for years before I got them. The day I picked them up it was -40 Celsius. Didn't have any issues with backglass delamination...

3 weeks later
#26 1 year ago

I'm planning to triple thick my glass this Wednesday and have a question about covering up the score windows.

After covering the score windows then laying down two coats, do you remove the covers before applying the plastic wrap? Use a razor around the edges to be sure it doesn't pull up triple thick/paint?

I'm thinking of cutting blue painter's tape into circles to cover the two circular score windows. (Replay and Points score reels)

Bruce

#27 1 year ago

Also what is the best way to move the backglass after you've triple thicked it? I would want to move it inside where it's warmer. Can I move it after a few hours?

Bruce

#28 1 year ago

It usually is solid enough to move after about 2 hours....it will still be sticky though.

#29 1 year ago

I'm gonna experiment with a piece of plate glass to be sure.

Bruce

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballFever:

Also what is the best way to move the backglass after you've triple thicked it? I would want to move it inside where it's warmer. Can I move it after a few hours?
Bruce

I usually move it inside after about 15 minutes when it starts to set.

Quoted from PinballFever:After covering the score windows then laying down two coats, do you remove the covers before applying the plastic wrap? Use a razor around the edges to be sure it doesn't pull up triple thick/paint?
I'm thinking of cutting blue painter's tape into circles to cover the two circular score windows. (Replay and Points score reels)

When I covered windows, I only pulled up the tape after the triple thick cured, and used an xacto knife to cut it free after. However, you're still left with somewhat of a ragged/visible edge.

I changed to just spraying triple thick over the score windows. The trick is to spray it very thick in order to get a glass-like smooth surface. It still won't be 100% level, though. You can use novus to knock it down a bit if you need to. It looks fine for digital displays, which are mostly dark, so I'm not sure if the triple thick would be to wavy and noticable when backed by white reels.

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

When I covered windows, I only pulled up the tape after the triple thick cured, and used an xacto knife to cut it free after. However, you're still left with somewhat of a ragged/visible edge.

Have you tried pulling up or removing the tape while the triple thick is still wet? Wouldn't that work? I'm concerned about the Glad wrap covering the tape and was thinking of removing the tape then laying down the Glad wrap. Another alternative would be to position the Glad wrap around the tape so it's easier to remove later?

I can also attach an exacto blade to my soldering iron to make a hot knife so I can easily cut out parts of the triple thick after it's cured.

I would prefer to cover the score windows with tape or something because there are score reels behind the two score windows and two bulbs lighting them up.

Thanks,
Bruce

#32 1 year ago

I have sprayed both as display windows and em score display windows rather than masking. I think it is unnoticable.

#33 1 year ago

I keep my games in the basement at a lakeside property. It is not heated in the winter and I remove the backglasses and store them at my house.
I have noticed that the glasses are beginning to lift after they are at my house. I suspect the change in humidity is the issue. I am back to full triple thick instead of spot spraying.

#34 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballFever:

ave you tried pulling up or removing the tape while the triple thick is still wet?

No. However, I have noticed that disturbing the triple thick while it's curing with mess with the masking layer of paint.

Quoted from PinballFever:

I'm concerned about the Glad wrap covering the tape and was thinking of removing the tape then laying down the Glad wrap.

Concerned about what? I don't see a problem with laying down plastic wrap over the tape. It won't adhere unless there is enough triple thick over the tape.

#35 1 year ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Concerned about what? I don't see a problem with laying down plastic wrap over the tape. It won't adhere unless there is enough triple thick over the tape.

Ok that means I should leave it 24 hours then remove the plastic wrap and the tape? I could make a hot knife and cut the triple thick around the tape before pulling it off.

Bruce

#36 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballFever:

Ok that means I should leave it 24 hours then remove the plastic wrap and the tape?

Yep.

Quoted from PinballFever:

I could make a hot knife and cut the triple thick around the tape before pulling it off.

I haven't heard of anyone trying that before, so I have no idea what affect that may have.

#37 1 year ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

I changed to just spraying triple thick over the score windows. The trick is to spray it very thick in order to get a glass-like smooth surface. It still won't be 100% level, though. You can use novus to knock it down a bit if you need to. It looks fine for digital displays, which are mostly dark, so I'm not sure if the triple thick would be to wavy and noticable when backed by white reels.

I have sprayed the Triple Thick right over the clear openings for the score reels many times. If you spray the TT in the right conditions most people would not notice the TT on the Score openings. You have to get real close, like to with in a foot, to notice the layer of the clear coating.

Also like to make sure that the edges of the glass are also coated with TT, to help seal the artwork to the glass.

#38 1 year ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Quoted from PinballFever:
Ok that means I should leave it 24 hours then remove the plastic wrap and the tape?
Yep.

Ok I'll try that.

Quoted from ForceFlow:

Quoted from PinballFever:
I could make a hot knife and cut the triple thick around the tape before pulling it off.
I haven't heard of anyone trying that before, so I have no idea what affect that may have.

I've seen posts about using a hot knife here. http://www.seriousviewers.com/atwpin/atwbg.htm

Quoted from Darcy:

I have sprayed the Triple Thick right over the clear openings for the score reels many times. If you spray the TT in the right conditions most people would not notice the TT on the Score openings.

I'm aware this can be done. I would prefer to cover the score windows but will consider spraying over them. I guess another option would be to cut out the triple thick over the score windows with a hot knife afterwards?

Quoted from Darcy:

Also like to make sure that the edges of the glass are also coated with TT, to help seal the artwork to the glass.

Noted, thanks for the tip.

Bruce

#39 1 year ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Quoted from PinballFever:
Also what is the best way to move the backglass after you've triple thicked it? I would want to move it inside where it's warmer. Can I move it after a few hours?
Bruce
I usually move it inside after about 15 minutes when it starts to set.

How do you move it? Do you wear gloves? Avoid touching the edges or is it safe at that time?

Bruce

#40 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballFever:

How do you move it? Do you wear gloves? Avoid touching the edges or is it safe at that time?
Bruce

I normally put the glass down on some 2x4's, spray it, let it sit for 15 minutes or so, then lift it up (like a pizza) on the glass side, rather than the edges.

Then I have some 2x4's inside that I put the backglass on. This prevents any newspaper or cardboard from sticking to sprayed areas after putting it down to cure.

#41 1 year ago

I cut out small blocks of wood the exact size of the score windows. Lay them over the windows and spray. Then just lift them off, easy peasy.

#42 1 year ago
Quoted from hailrazer:

Then just lift them off, easy peasy.

Do you lift them off immediately after spraying the triple thick while it's wet? Seems it would be easier than using tape.

Is there a chance of compromising the triple thick's integrity if there's holes in it after curing?

Bruce

#43 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballFever:

Do you lift them off immediately after spraying the triple thick while it's wet? Seems it would be easier than using tape.
Is there a chance of compromising the triple thick's integrity if there's holes in it after curing?
Bruce

I've done it both ways and it didn't make a difference. After it dried I just had to wiggle them a bit to get them to pop off.

1 week later
#44 1 year ago

I sprayed it this afternoon when I had the time and it was a clear low wind day.

The two round score holes were covered with pennies then immediately removed after spraying before I applied the wrap.

I had to spray closer than a foot to try to get good coats. I think there was a slight wind deflecting the spray when I tried from further away.

I wasn't able to get all of them tamped down because of the bubbles underneath the wrap but I got most of them. Will remove the wrap tomorrow after work and post a photo of the result.

Bruce

1953 GC BG Triple Thicked (resized).jpg

#45 1 year ago

I slowly and carefully removed the wrap.

The bottom half is good. The top half has some bubbles around a half inch or so in diameter underneath the triple thick.

Do you suggest puncturing the bubbles with a pin to let the air out then spraying a couple more coats?

Thanks,
Bruce

#46 1 year ago

Or maybe use a syringe to draw the air out of the bubbles? What do you guys do with the bubbles under the TT after removing the wrap?

Also I didn't cover the front of the BG so there's a light spray of TT there. Can I remove/dissolve it with naptha?

Bruce

#47 1 year ago

Here is the glass.

IMG_20171113_174303492 (resized).jpg

#48 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballFever:

I slowly and carefully removed the wrap.
The bottom half is good. The top half has some bubbles around a half inch or so in diameter underneath the triple thick.
Do you suggest puncturing the bubbles with a pin to let the air out then spraying a couple more coats?
Thanks,
Bruce

I'm not the expert on back glass repair but if you leave a bubble underneath the lifting paint and the TT you still have an area with no paint or ink adhesion so you are left with a bubble which can spread. I just sold a Bally that someone had done TT to a long time ago. There was a bubbled area that was completely blown out.

#49 1 year ago

I'm able to carefully stick a needle in from the side in the bubble then press the bubbles flat releasing the air.

Will do that with the rest of the bubbles after work today then spray another couple coats to seal it further.

Bruce

#50 1 year ago

Where exactly are these bubbles? between the glass and the paint, or embedded in the triple thick?

I wouldn't advise flexing the triple thick after it's cured. It may crack and damage paint.

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