(Topic ID: 271202)

Backbox podcast: Let's Talk About Diversity!

By cait001

3 years ago


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  • Latest reply 3 years ago by poppapin
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    Post #105 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Aurich (3 years ago)

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    #33 3 years ago
    Quoted from robotron:

    fyi i grew up hanging at chinatown fair in mott street. there were many many fights. there were groups of people that were not inclusive like you say they are. most were divided into asian, white, black groups maybe it was back in the day but the group of fighting community was not an utopia. btw the people that fight for equality seem to be the most divisive. look in the mirror. if people dont agree with the utopia you are trying to create we are called all type of derogatory names and insults. guess what there will NEVER be a star trek type utopia ever anywhere. forcing agendas turns people off. btw i dont have “privilege” i worked very hard for everything i ever had and it disgusts me when people say others have privilege. i grew up in the gutter in brooklyn and had many of irish cop kick my ass just for being on the corner dont speak to me about racial equality. you really come off as a condenscending person when people dont agree with your utopian views.

    Reminds me of the classic joke. You can call a white person whatever and not offend them. Except racist. That really upsets them.

    1 month later
    #361 3 years ago
    Quoted from cait001:

    If your question is coming from an angle of "how dare you denigrate pinside" after giving a thumbs up to a racist meme, then it's not a conversation we should even bother having because there's 8 pages of people trying to defend pinside's honour already.

    I'd also add the random pictures of sexy women that randomly show up in some threads. Seems better than it used to be and the NSFW tag helps. Sometimes the photos are relevant to a topic, but most of the time it's just bored posters who think of pinside as their boy's club.

    It's not that there is anything wrong with looking at pictures of beautiful women, but there are plenty of better ways to do it then while you're trying to discuss/learn about the pinball hobby.

    #364 3 years ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    I think there is a real problem, that grows bigger, that white people really cant and wont interact with other ethnics groups, due to the feel, that it can only go wrong, and if that trend continues, we have a progressivly worse situation.
    Granted my perspective probably differs, since beeing from sweden.

    Well as an American, our racial relations have made huge strides the past few hundred years while still having a lot more to go to create a harmonious situation. Hundreds of years of slavery, institutional segregation, and limited opportunity for social and economic growth compounded over multiple generations is not going to disappear without a lot of time and effort. I don't know what the ethnic makeup of your area is like, whereas I live in an extremely diverse area.

    Broadly speaking, if someone feels that they cannot interact with other racial groups because they are full of fear and doubt that they will somehow offend and be punished for a minor transgression, then that is an issue with that particular individual. It's a good sign that they are slightly aware that they can be offensive, yet they need to have the faith and trust in their fellow man that mistakes can be forgiven if the offender is willing to apologize and commit to self-improvement. No body is out to get you unless you are truly an unapologetic, ignorant ass.

    #371 3 years ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    Trolling Pinside reminding everyone how unwelcoming we are isn’t going to move the needle where we want it to go and is a violation as well.

    Idk how it's trolling to have one or two threads dedicated to the topic. This one in particular seems condoned by the staff.

    Further, if having the simple discussion to reflect on why the hobby is so white and has remained predominately male isn't going to "move the needle" then what will? There is nothing inherently wrong with a bunch of white dudes liking the hobby, but pinball should be fun for everyone and sometimes it takes self-reflection to figure out why this incredibly fun game isn't more popular with everyone else. (Cost of course is a big factor, but it doesn't explain everything)

    #374 3 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    I'm still trying to figure out why the local knitting group isn't more popular with all demographics...

    It's because of toxic masculinity that has ingrained into society that men can't openly enjoy things like knitting. It's that simple.

    But you're right to a degree, it's a product of the broader American culture. There was a lot of segregation in arcades, where they were placed, and how easy it was for different demographics to visit them (eg the "good mall" in the suburbs vs "the dangerous mall" in the city core). There are simply a lot of minorities that did not grow up with the game during the heyday, which was exacerbated by how few public locations were left to play at.

    I guess the thing is, I don't necessarily see it as a problem that needs to be "fixed" but rather something worth critical thought as to how the hobby ended up the way it has. And a vital part of keeping the hobby and industry healthy is finding more people to join the hobby, so knowing how the hobby got to this place can guide future decision making in keeping the hobby as open and broadly appealing as possible. It's not "fixing" a problem, it's ensuring that the hobby remains healthy and can be enjoyed by as many people as possible for generations to come.

    #379 3 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    But it's not a video gamers problem.. or even the game maker's problem that arcades were built around collecting quarters.. and not everyone could beg money from their parents to dump in the arcade every week. It's just a reality of the circumstances. It's an outcome - not an exclusion.

    Still I'd argue that the game maker have done little to try to get out of the niche and that they should be concerned with appealing to as many people as possible because it affects their bottom line. It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy when almost all games are aimed at the same core demographic. (White men aged 40-70)

    Quoted from flynnibus:

    Meanwhile... there are no masses waiting at the door who can't get in.

    And how does pinball attract those masses? By making the hobby more broadly appealing. That's more variety in themes, more welcoming locations to play, and more variety in how games play to accommodate various skill levels (kudos to co-op modes becoming a feature and easy ways to see unique wizard modes)

    #382 3 years ago

    Well at least 2/3rds of the population doesn't care about their product (and that feels like a generous estimate). Seems like a market worth going after...

    Like you agree that a one-size fits all approach doesn't work, yet that is what Stern does with their three to four games a year. They show little ambition in expanding the hobby to women and minorities based on the themes they select.

    I'd be one thing if Stern did try to branch out into other themes and they failed, but they don't even try to. They take the safest gambles and are extremely risk averse. Which is fine to a degree, they need to stay in business because they're the backbone of the industry. But it hurts them in the long run because they're very limited and hyper focused in their target to expand the hobby, the industry, and their potential buying base.

    At a certain point, a business has to be ok with losing some potential ROI in exchanged for expanding their market. This is true in any industry where the dominate player has cornered the market and has to find new ways to continue growth.

    #386 3 years ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    Grow up people for real and stop living in your racist and hate filled fantasy land!

    What is it that I'm saying that is so racist or hateful to you? You're the one who hates on a guy just because he might enjoy knitting...

    Anyhow, most people don't play pinball because they haven't had much of a chance to experience it, let alone decide their opinion of if they like it or not. And a lot of that is where games are available to play and what about the game might attract someone who hasn't played before (on top of other factors like how the game plays and the cost to play)

    #387 3 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    Again.. armchair thinking. # of people doesn't make a market. # of people WITH MONEY and INTEREST/NEED - makes a market.

    Maybe you're new to the hobby... but that's EXACTLY what Stern has been because they were so thin, one or two misses was enough to sink the entire company. That's what you seem to be missing... They live in the reality of selling and paying bills - not the armchair QB world of spending other people's money with nothing at risk.
    Gary is an accountant. They couldn't afford 'chance'. If someone wants to take a risk and prove a different market opportunity - they can do so. That's exactly what Jack G did when he started JJP. But to suggest Stern is missing out - without any real market analysis besides "hey, there is lots of people!!" is just foolishness.

    That was fine for Stern in 2008. Stern has had explosive sales year over year for several years in a row now. They sell them as fast as they can make them. Why not try a little more? That's all

    You can yell "business reasons" at me all you like. But fundamentally, you don't know jack more than I do about the inner workings of Stern.

    #390 3 years ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    Because the only people who give a rat's ass about racism or sexism are the ones that talk about it. Do you really think that anyone cares if they are in a bar playing pinball and a gay person or person of color comes in and starts playing pinball too? Nobody cares about shit like that. How the hell would I even know if someone is gay or not? I'm certainly not going to ask them.

    I disagree. I'm happy when I see anyone play on location. I love pinball and like to see other people enjoying it. You not wanting to talk to other people playing pinball says more about you than anything else.

    And you didn't really answer the question. What did I say that was so racist or hateful to you? It's not racist/sexist to simply talk about racism/sexism existing and the way it influences society on a large and small scale.

    edit: also this is a thread about diversity in pinball....what did you expect people to talk about if not racism and sexism

    #397 3 years ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    I do talk to people when I'm out playing pinball but 90% of the talk is about pinball. I dont say things like "hey dude you gay?" or "hey buddy, how come black guys dont play pinball?"

    Yeah, no sane person would

    But if I was playing next to some dude and we're chatting about pinball, and suddenly his boyfriend walks up, I would probably say "Oh, is this your partner? Nice to meet you"

    You can be nice and not be a weirdo at the same time.

    #398 3 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    You don't need to know the interworkings of Stern to know that the basics of sales and production still hold true.
    Irony - you say I don't know what they can tolerate.. but without any inside knowledge you use 'explosive sales' as justification to know what they can tolerate.
    Revenue is only one piece of the story.

    It's not inside knowledge that Stern is doing gangbusters. Someone like George Gomez is thrilled to tell you stuff that sales are up 30% over last year and that they've shipped games to 100 different countries or whatever.

    #404 3 years ago
    Quoted from Grandnational007:

    A bit of a scattered rant, so bear with me...
    Why would a mall in a city be any more dangerous compared to one in the suburbs? What makes it dangerous? If I think I get what you are saying, wouldn't that just be perpetuating what you are saying you are against? This is confusing to me. Seriously.
    Back in my day, the city malls around my parts ALWAYS had the best arcades, with the latest games, and that usually meant us younger folks had to wait for the older people or kids to move on to another game so we could play. Conversely, the arcades in the 'burbs always had the older or less popular games.
    Perhaps you are suggesting socio-economic barriers to pinball?
    I guess at the end of the day, people are tribal; they like to do what they are familiar with, with those they are familiar with. People generally like to conform. This cuts across all races, backgrounds, classes...it's literally instinctual.
    Small examples, but examples nonetheless:
    My wife's parents (who happen to be a mixed race couple, but that's not what I'm getting at...) happen to be of a religious persuasion that like to (annoyingly) knock on people's doors to tell them about it. They tend to socialize with other "door knockers".
    A neighbor of mine is a proud Italian. He is what most would call a "paison"; in fact, if he likes you, he calls you a "paison" as well. Guess what he does literally every Saturday? He plays cards in the back of a fellow Italian immigrant's barber shop with other Italians.
    I like to play pinball. Guess what I do every Monday night when covid isn't in town? I play pinball with other pinball people! And it's a pretty fun, and welcoming to ALL that show up. And it's a diverse crowd, pretty much the entire gamut of the the human condition (gay, straight, trans, liberal, conservative, black, white, short, fat, ugly, pretty, rich, redneck, bougie, extrovert, introvert, poor, etc., etc., etc.) Maybe it's like cats and dogs getting together, but we all have a good time, and we even bust each other's chops too! Crazy!
    Maybe the "scene" is different up here in the Northeast, but pinball might actually be one of the most people "diverse" things I do!
    Pinball not welcoming? I haven't seen it...not saying that YOU haven't, but most people I talk to tend to agree.
    Maybe I just wasn't looking, but I didn't see a group of nazi's/black panthers/mafiosos/etc. out in front of Pinburgh last year trying to scare people off.
    I'm well aware of of all the world's tragedies, but I find that if you do what's right, treat others with respect, and generally not be an asshole, it gets you pretty far.
    I'll probably regret hitting "post", but I come here to ESCAPE from the world and discuss pinball, with like minded pinball people. But here I am. I guess I just take for granted the disproportionately large amount of kind people I've met in this hobby. From ALL walks of life. Or maybe I just like to type. I don't know. I'm out.

    I certainly don't disagree with what you said, I just don't understand what the exact message you are trying to convey is

    It's fine that people want to share certain things with people like them. I'm not saying it's wrong to find like minded individuals. I'm saying pinball as a whole has some issues that don't really get addressed and tend to be swept under the rug. It has an issue with attracting people in general, and of the people it does attract it's not a very diverse group.

    I personally think it's valuable to have a diverse group of people in any hobby. And it's fine if someone disagrees with that (no one is going to change my mind and I won't change theirs). It's reasonable that certain hobbies are fundamentally limited in appeal. Of course a bunch of non-Italians aren't going to be as interested in hanging out with some dudes who want to Italian-it-up or whatever. I simply don't think pinball is necessarily that sort of hobby.

    It's great that your neck of the woods is so inclusive and has a diverse group of players. I wish I could say the same around my neck of the woods.

    #406 3 years ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    Well I wouldn't say that because I just dont care enough to say that. What if the guy said "hell no asshole I ain't gay" and then he beat the hell out of you? Better just to keep your mouth shut and play pinball in my opinion.

    Because in my hypothetical example they are clearly gay?

    I'm not going to just randomly ask someone if they're gay. But if it's obvious that it's their partner with them, I'm not going to act like I don't see that they're a couple.

    #410 3 years ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    I think the point trying to be made is, why does it have to be treated as a spectacle and acknowledged. I think its fair to say we all want to be treated equal, so why treat the difference like its a miracle accomplishment.
    Anyone that purposely points it out as a negative should be called out but not acknowledging it doesnt make you a bad person:
    Person A: "Hey Im gay"
    Person B: "Ok so? Whats that have to do with locking the 3rd ball for multi?"
    Person A: "Well I think there needs to be more gay people in pinball"
    Person B: "Dude can you stop thinking with your dick for 3 seconds and focus on hitting that scoop you're about to GC this machine! I dont care who you're banging"
    Person A: "I knew this hobby was full of closed minded people! I dont feel welcome!"
    Person B: "Just hit the scoop!"

    You guys make the weirdest hypotheticals to prove some sort of nebulous point

    #411 3 years ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    Why? It's none if your business if they are a couple or not. It may offend them of you try to talk to them about it. He may think you are trying to hit on his boyfriend or something. You never know what is going to offend someone these days so that's a conversation that I think is best off to avoid.

    Fine, live in fear

    #444 3 years ago

    People say they don’t care if someone is gay, but they really don’t want to hear about it

    If a guy is with his boyfriend, and I say hello to their partner...then to some Im getting too personal, I risk getting my ass kicked for assuming someone is gay despite it being very obvious that they are, and I’m somehow reducing a person to a single character trait because apparently I can’t talk about anything other than their queerness.

    At the same time, if a guy was clearly with his girlfriend and I stonewall her and ignore her entire presence, then I’m a complete social dweeb and rude.

    Do people really not see the double standard being applied to just being friendly to strangers next to them on a pinball machine?

    #449 3 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    You're twisting things into what they are not. You're assuming there is going to be some conflict over the gay discussion... even to the point of physical assault.
    People keep telling you that they don't care... yet you keep telling them how they are going to react differently.

    I did not just make up the example of physical assault. That was a response by someone else that I responded to

    Quoted from TreyBo69:

    But if I was playing next to some dude and we're chatting about pinball, and suddenly his boyfriend walks up, I would probably say "Oh, is this your partner? Nice to meet you"

    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    Well I wouldn't say that because I just dont care enough to say that. What if the guy said "hell no asshole I ain't gay" and then he beat the hell out of you? Better just to keep your mouth shut and play pinball in my opinion.

    And if I just ignored a man's girlfriend, it would be weird. And you can talk to some guy's girlfriend without "chatting her up" because men can be friends with women.

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