I definitely want more women in pinball. I'm all about that!
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Quoted from gweempose:In general, they are. We made an exception in this case because the topic of diversity as it relates to pinball is an important one for our community. Unfortunately, some people have used this opportunity to extend the discussion beyond the intended topic. This thread was not supposed to be a catch-all discussion of systemic racism and inequality. There are plenty of other sites available where you can have that conversation. I am asking everyone to please bear this in mind as you continue to participate in this thread.
The only reason there isnt more diversity in pinball is because its mostly white males that enjoy the hobby. White males arent stopping anyone from playing. I wish it was a female dominated hobby trust me, that would be awesome. You can't make people like pinball. Also the reason pinball isnt more diverse damn sure isnt because white males wont allow different races and genders to play, you would have to be an idiot to think that.
Every guy that I know wants more women to play pinball, but the truth is it just isn't something that many women are interested in doing. Unfortunately theres not even many guys that like pinball these days. I have people over at the house and most people will play a few balls and walk away unimpressed. It's just not that popular. I wish it was but it's not.
Quoted from Inpw:We're just going to have to disagree. I think the only factor that influences the 'quality' of a community is the personality of the people involved, not their race, sexuality or gender. Ergo, a white male community is neither better nor worse than a purely black female or a mixed one.
Well, the fact that a separate panel seems to be needed to highlight the issue kind of tells me that it's not a development that comes naturally. If it were, nobody would feel inclined to talk about it. It just wouldn't be a topic.
Anyway, don't think pinball is intrinsically white any more than basketball is intrinsically black. It just happens to attract a certain demographic. If women or blacks discover it for themselves, great. If not, who cares.
This is pretty much spot on. People arent scared away from pinball because its dominated by white males. They don't play it because they simply don't want to. Most white males dont want to play pinball either.
I want there to be more men and women both in pinball because I want the hobby to grow. I'm not worried about the diversity of pinball, I'm far more worried about the survival of pinball.
Quoted from cait001:Sometimes when you're fighting for justice you have to just re-route around people that aren't ready to hear it.
May you have a blessed day.
No use in fighting for justice because the people who dont agree with you aren't going to listen to what you have to say. That's just life and it happens to all of us so stop crying about it.
Quoted from cait001:I don't need everyone to listen to me.
MLK was incredibly unpopular amongst white Americans when he was alive.
People that opposed equal marriage rights fought against the LGBTQ community with every dirty trick they could find.
and yet the fights for justice continue.
Why do you think there is a fight? Gay marriage is legal in Canada isnt it? What else os there to fight for?
Quoted from cait001:Take a look at that video I posted a few posts up to get an idea of how just a specific verdict is never the end of things.
I'm sorry I just cant listen to it because I dont agree with it. I am of the belief that we can all be successful if we work hard to achieve it, regardless of color, gender or whatever.
Quoted from bingopodcast:In this country, many times, we can. It's just harder for some than others. The video linked breaks down exactly why that is through historical context. It is worth a watch, even if you disagree.
Its definitely harder for some people to be successful than others, I wont disagree with that at all. That is never going to change I dont care what you do. I think that applies to most people on this earth but if you want to get out there and get it then you can be successful. Some definitely have to work harder than others and some have advantages because they are smarter, better looking, better educated etc than others. That's never ever going to change.
Quoted from bingopodcast:Do you think we shouldn't try to make it more equitable for all,
Of course I do, especially if something is blatantly wrong and unfair. Not sure I see anything that is that unfair though towards anyone in today's world. Nothing really stands out to me at least.
Isn't this a thread about diversity in pinball though rather than the worlds race and equality problems which SHOULD NOT be allowed to be discussed on Pinside?
Quoted from metallik:So did you watch the cop kneeling on Floyd's neck til he died? That didn't stand out as a bit unfair?
Yes I saw it and I am outraged by it just like every other American is black, white, brown, whatever.
Quoted from metallik:And why were you outraged?
Because nobody should be treated like that. Duh
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:Do you also understand that this kind of thing happens statistically more with black people? That there is definitely a bias against them?
To bring it back to pinball, let's take that same person that has been discriminated against their whole life, be it black, LGBTQ, etc... They think pinball is cool but all they see are middle age white guys that have typically been their oppressors.
Would you feel welcome? Would you even give it a chance?
Wouldn't it be nicer if those middle aged white guys stood up and said "You're welcome any time, and don't be afraid, we value you and your presence here."
To play Devil's advocate, let's pretend that you feel like you are already welcoming and that doesn't need to be said. What's the harm in saying it anyway? You might come off as a nicer person?
Just to answer a couple of your questions, there are more white people killed by the police every year than blacks. That is an absolute fact. Go ahead and downvote me for telling the truth.
Also as far as pinball goes, I DO play pinball with black people and women. They have even been inside my home to play so why the fuck are you preaching to me about this shit for?
As far as gay people go I'm not sure if I've had any of them or not in my home, I would guess that I probably have but I didnt ask them. Maybe I should start asking men and women if they are gay when they come over you think?
Also nobody has to stand up and tell the black people and women "hey you guys are welcome to play pinball with us anytime you like" because they already know that they're welcome, they aren't f*cking stupid or anything. I think they understand that by people shaking their hands and talking to them and stuff and I guess the fact that they come back again and again proves that they feel welcome by us angry old white guys.
Edit: I forgot that I can confirm that I've had gay people in my home and even been to their home and out to eat etc with them. My old work partner of 36 years is gay. He never told me but I know for a fact that he is. We are great friends and always will be, kinda hard not to be with someone you spend 36 years of your life with. I'm sure there have been other gay people in my home too but I'm not going to do a gay check on all of my visitors because I could care less if they are gay or not honestly just like I could care less if someone is black or not. I think its actually YOU that has the problem Wolfmarsh.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:This is a fact, and true. But it requires some context.
There are WAY more white people in the US than black people. So it makes logical sense that more people would potentially be killed. When you look at the actual percentage of people however, black people are disproportionally more likely to be killed - almost * 3 TIMES * more likely.
This means, if there were exactly the same number of white people as black people in the US, and 100 white people were killed, * THREE hundred * black people would be killed.
Here's an NIH study which specifically looked at this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/
So is that privilege? I don't know. But it definitely means way more people are being killed per capita.
More white people but which group commits the most crimes? None of this matters and I really dont care so I'm not going to get into the race thing with anyone. This is a thread about why blacks, women, and gays dont play pinball and the answer is, because they dont f*cking want to. It's not because they arent welcome to.
Quoted from cait001:Have you never heard of per capita come on now, this kind of argument gets debunked by kids.
Not worried about it. We are here to talk about why more gay and black people dont play pinball. We already know the answer is because they dont like the hobby but you will never believe that I am sure.
Quoted from cait001:This article is from 2015
Gaming while black: Casual racism to cautious optimism
https://www.engadget.com/2015-01-16-gaming-while-black-casual-racism-to-cautious-optimism.html
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
No offense but that article is just really stupid and inaccurate.
Quoted from cait001:Specific to the video game industry, with perhaps some parallels to pinball
Video Games Owe Black Players More Than Just Talk
https://www.pcmag.com/opinions/video-games-owe-black-players-more-than-just-talk
Congratulations Cait, you have totally turned this into a racial thread rather than a pinball diversity thread. 
Quoted from poppapin:And what is wrong with an intelligent, conservative black woman? Sounds kinda racist to me.
I agree, I love Candice Owen's. She is a very very intelligent woman.
Quoted from GTO:I do have a few white friends who play, but mostly end up playing at home by myself.
Join the crowd. Even us white guys do the same.
Quoted from RyanClaytor:Hi mistermoberg ,
I appreciate your humility in not wanting to make this about you. There's certainly a different dynamic when it's in a public forum, too (I'd be happy to chat privately if you're interested), but I'm genuinely interested in the turn-about you've experienced.
Just as an example, I used to think that women's leagues were unnecessary, thinking, "Isn't that just a type of segregation?" But then I think it might have been Josh Sharpe who said something to the effect of, "Let's just ask women their opinion," which was a brilliantly simple solution that, regrettably, I'd overlooked. After listening to a lot of women's accounts and hearing about how women's events and Belles and Chimes chapters felt a lot more comfortable, it started to make a lot of sense to me. I guess I'm just curious if you had some similar thoughts, or if perhaps there was some different considerations taking place. Again, I'm not above learning, either. I'm trying to learn from you this time.
Regardless, if a public or private post is outside your comfort zone right now, no biggie. I (and others who have made themselves visible on this thread) will be here if you ever feel like reaching out.
Finally, to address your concern about this not being about you, I kinda think this is about all of us. So, in that way, it's about you, too. This can't work without everyone (or at least a majority) buying in. So, perhaps your thoughts could help us move that needle.
Thanks, again, for giving all this some consideration,
Ryan
I think he is trying to tell you nicely that it's none of your business. Leave the guy alone and stop trying to bait him into your trap. Your liberal tactics are disgusting.
1 month later
I'm with Cait. I get sick of going over to peoples houses and theres nothing there but a bunch of old white guys drinking beer, farting, and using foul language.
I want to see more hot chicks and NOOO not only white ones either. I want to see white ones, black ones, Asian ones, Spanish ones, whatever. Bring on the dancing girls!
Quoted from TreyBo69:It's because of toxic masculinity that has ingrained into society that men can't openly enjoy things like knitting.
I'm just going to put this out here right now, to all of my Male friends.....if you enjoy knitting please lose my number right now lol.....no seriously please do!
Here is what you people arent smart enough to understand. The only reason people of any race or gender don't play pinball is because THEY DONT WANT TO!! The sad truth is most women do not like pinball and that's why they dont play, just like most women do not enjoy working on cars or watching certain sports etc. They simply dont want to or they would.
I am going to guess that "most" African Americans dont like pinball or they would be playing it more. I mean theres nothing stopping them from playing so that's obviously the reason that alot of them dont play. We are all different and we like different things. That is never going to change in a million years so get over it and quit trying to force something that isnt there.
Every person in this country is free to enjoy the things that they want to enjoy, doesnt matter if you are white, black, brown straight or gay. Nobody gives a shit as much as you think they do, it's all in your racist and sexist little heads trust me. If you are gay I will play pinball with you, just dont pinch me on the ass while I'm playing and we will be fine. You got that Gunnut40? 
Grow up people for real and stop living in your racist and hate filled fantasy land!
Quoted from TreyBo69:What is it that I'm saying that is so racist or hateful to you?
Because the only people who give a rat's ass about racism or sexism are the ones that talk about it. Do you really think that anyone cares if they are in a bar playing pinball and a gay person or person of color comes in and starts playing pinball too? Nobody cares about shit like that. How the hell would I even know if someone is gay or not? I'm certainly not going to ask them.
Quoted from TreyBo69:You not wanting to talk to other people playing pinball says more about you than anything else.
I do talk to people when I'm out playing pinball but 90% of the talk is about pinball. I dont say things like "hey dude you gay?" or "hey buddy, how come black guys dont play pinball?"
Quoted from cait001:it's like the previous 8 pages of this thread never happened.
just amazing.
Cait I know that you don't understand it and you don't want to accept it but the truth is nobody really cares about the agenda that you are trying to push on everyone. I dont mean that in a rude way either but nobody cares.
White males are not fighting to keep gay people or people of different races out of pinball. I'm not going to fight to bring them in but I'm not going to fight to keep them out either. I will play pinball with anyone that wants to play pinball but the minute they pull their political, racist or sexist BS on me I will no longer want to play with them anymore......and yes that has happened to me personally.
Quoted from TreyBo69:if I was playing next to some dude and we're chatting about pinball, and suddenly his boyfriend walks up, I would probably say "Oh, is this your partner? Nice to meet you"
Well I wouldn't say that because I just dont care enough to say that. What if the guy said "hell no asshole I ain't gay" and then he beat the hell out of you? Better just to keep your mouth shut and play pinball in my opinion.
Quoted from cait001:Ok this thread has run it's course, shut it down. hurt feelings of white men rule the day.
Nope I want to play pinball with you Cait. Let's do it and then we can come back here and talk about how it all went.
Quoted from TreyBo69:if it's obvious that it's their partner with them, I'm not going to act like I don't see that they're a couple.
Why? It's none if your business if they are a couple or not. It may offend them of you try to talk to them about it. He may think you are trying to hit on his boyfriend or something. You never know what is going to offend someone these days so that's a conversation that I think is best off to avoid.
Quoted from mrm_4:I think the point trying to be made is, why does it have to be treated as a spectacle and acknowledged. I think its fair to say we all want to be treated equal, so why treat the difference like its a miracle accomplishment.
Anyone that purposely points it out as a negative should be called out but not acknowledging it doesnt make you a bad person:
Person A: "Hey Im gay"
Person B: "Ok so? Whats that have to do with locking the 3rd ball for multi?"
Person A: "Well I think there needs to be more gay people in pinball"
Person B: "Dude can you stop thinking with your dick for 3 seconds and focus on hitting that scoop you're about to GC this machine! I dont care who you're banging"
Person A: "I knew this hobby was full of closed minded people! I dont feel welcome!"
Person B: "Just hit the scoop!"
Lol that was pretty funny!
"Hey I'm gay"
"Who gives a shit, hit the scoop dumbass!"
Quoted from semicolin:If any of those posters were truly indifferent to someone's skin colour, sexuality, gender, religion, whatever- they wouldn't need to create a hypothetical argument or fanciful situation unprompted. We just want to play pinball too, but being used as a prop argument in a discussion about the reasons why communities lack diversity is one of the reasons why people don't chime in. You don't hear it, because on the *extremely rare* occasion that we show up and say "Hey, that's kind of a weird thing to say" we get told alternately that we're dick waving or that we're flaunting it. Both have occurred in this thread. Both have occurred in IRL as well, so it's not like anyone is making a novel argument here.
That's the simple point I'm trying to make.
Just play fucking pinball.
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