The comment from Hazoff is deplorable and precisely the reason why Pinside, unfortunately, gets a bad rep. @Robin, thank you for stepping in and saying something. I like Pinside for a great many reasons (getting help with my bonehead questions about fixing my games, poking through gamerooms pictures and inspiration from people all over the world, meeting new friends, and SHARING this great hobby), but blatantly racist posts like Hazoff's and the "here's an objectified female in front of a pinball machine" posts are the reasons why many people don't feel comfortable here, and that's a fucking problem. God bless cait001 for being one of the few females to continue to be Pinside-present and advocating for change. Cait, it's an important and necessary change and I'm an ally. The racism and chauvinism, blatant or passive, has no place here, or anywhere for that matter.

Let's everyone, especially all you white guys like me, take an active role in making pinball a safe and welcoming place for EVERYONE.

Amen. Great suggestion.

If the IFPA can form a women's advisory board, why not have a diversity advisory board on Pinside? I cannot speak for robin , but we all know he's gone above and beyond developing the Pinside ecosystem. I've never seen another message board infrastructure as robust, and we're lucky to have him at the helm. With that said, PERHAPS he would be willing to entertain such an advisory board for Pinside?

I can feel the strain of the volunteer group of mods buckling under this suggestion of potential extra work, but stay with me. Perhaps when you...

...MAYBE some of those questions could include something like,

"Would you be willing to serve on a Pinside Diversity Board in and advisement capacity to the website?"

>>>OR EVEN!!!<<<

"Would you consider applying to become a Pinside moderator?"

...and maybe, JUST MAYBE, we could turn the tides here a little in order to make this a more inclusive space. From some of the comments in this thread alone, it's obviously needed.

Hi Jodester

Thanks for chiming in on this thread. And thanks for being a mod, too. A thankless job if ever there was one. Volunteer work for not much in return. Impossible to please everyone. So...thank you...for showing up to this party.

If you don't mind, I'd like to take a moment to talk about a couple of things. You asked...

I have a difficult time with this argument when there are really ugly posts popping up saying things like:

...and...

hazoff (resized).png

It's like saying, "If Party A likes to spit in people's faces and Party B doesn't, then who's to say that we should keep Party A from spitting in people's faces?" The answer is not political, but rather common decency. It's also in the Pinside rules that you've volunteered to uphold. "Racism, name-calling, and discrimination..."

https://pinside.com/pinball/help/pinsidecom-community-rules

You also asked:

I'm glad you're asking questions. Sincerely. It's how we all learn. And believe it or not, there are a lot of suggestions being discussed, from top down approaches (manufacturers taking a financial risk on a theme with a primary demographic that is not white-male dominated) to bottom up, such as...

...but we could even focus on our group right here. Pinside. ...and you have some power in that regard, Jodester. You volunteered as a Pinside Moderator, but with that dose of power comes some responsibility. You actually have some power to make a difference here! For starters:

...then listen.

Like, really listen.

And then work to implement changes based on those suggestions.

While we're having an uncomfortable discussion here, there's another thing that came out of your keyboard that I'd like to chat about.

These "labels" you mentioned are merely facts. I don't understand why this is problematic when they are things that just ARE. Are you male? Are you white? If you answered yes to those two then you ARE the third as well. I fall into all of these categories. Based on your posts, I'd wager you are, too.

If I'm right, I have a little challenge for you tonight, to have a think. Like, a real, put-down-the-phone, lay-in-bed, stare-at-the ceiling, think.

When you're laying there, take a moment to think about how seldom you've been scared to walk to your car at night. Think about how rare it is that you fear being groped in a crowd. Think about how you've never thought your life hung in the balance when you've been pulled over. Think about how you probably haven't been afraid to be yourself since maybe high school. These are very real concerns that a lot of folks, that are not like you and me, are faced with daily.

Also-also, on the topic of having a good think...

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume I'm about your least favorite pinsider by this point, but I'm gonna add one more list item to your good think tonight. In the statement above, in a not very veiled way, you're saying that women, people of color and LGBTQ are poor. Not an okay generalization to make. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe those distilled words were not your intentions. But please read your statement again. The assumption is there.

Finally, I'm sure it feels icky to hear things like...

...but when you respond with things like...

...then you are part of the problem.

BUT HERE'S THE GOOD NEWS, and my god, Jodester, I hope you made it this far.

The GOOD NEWS is that you're not a bad person and you're not alone. You know why? Because we're all part of the problem. I am too. I've made plenty of fucked-up and ignorant mistakes in my life and stuck my foot in my mouth in very regrettable ways. But I'm doing my best to be inquisitive (LIKE YOU ARE...ASKING QUESTIONS!) and remain open-minded about our role in why this diversity conversation needs to happen and changes need to be made.

Hi again.

Hey Robotron. I'm gonna speak really sincerely here, which I know is seldom favored in a forum post, but here come my thoughts, without irony or snark.

I tried my best to educate in a diplomatic way when I mentioned a few things about Jodester 's posts that were really bothering me. I promise you I am not interested in having Jodester lose his Pinside volunteer position. In fact, let me clear things up right now:

Hey robin , I've been exchanging several private messages with Jodester in the past 24 hours and you know what, I'm actually pretty impressed with the guy. Please don't get rid of him on my account.

Also...

...I'm far from perfect. Thank you, DakotaMike , for bringing some of my own biases to my attention. Sincerely. Admittedly, we ALL have work to do. I promise I'll keep looking in the proverbial mirror during this conversation.

Also, while there are a lot of problematic sentiments in this thread, I'm heartened by statements like...

Yes!

YES!!

yesyesyes.gif

This open-minded, inquisitive, empathetic outlook is exactly the type of attitude I'd like to see, on this thread, in pinball, and in life. None of us are perfect, but a willingness to learn, to be educated, and to be kind, rather than reactionary, is something for us all to strive for. Looks like we've already seen a couple of reasons to keep this thread live. ( Wolfmarsh SNES )

Thanks, robin and mods for not shutting this conversation down.

Dang it. Right as I was about to point out...

...that Rarehero beat him to the punch by about 20 posts.

Hey, I've been getting some private messages from a few folks and it's come to my attention that there have been threatening PinsideMails being sent to participants in this thread.

I'm really troubled by this. That is the exact opposite of what we're trying to accomplish with this discussion. I don't have much more information than what I mentioned above, so I don't care what your opinion is (if it aligns with mine or not), stop doing that.

We're not going to tolerate harassment.

spoiled
adjective
1. harmed in character by being treated too leniently or indulgently.

In comparison to people who have been systematically oppressed, I'd say that word is pretty fitting.

We are part of the problem, moreso if we don't acknowledge that. And there is also a disparity that exists. Both are true, not mutually exclusive.

Hi flynnibus

Thanks for being a part of our conversation. I know this thread is ballooning pretty quickly, so in case you missed it...

I include myself in this statement you take issue with. So, I do have some insight and background knowledge about myself. Ha-ha! But when you say...

...it feels like you're being dismissive of the white male role throughout history and the years and decades and centuries of systematic oppression of non-white males.

I know that statement you take issue with is difficult to hear. It was difficult for me to hear. It's still difficult for me to fully own. But I'm trying.

Let's think about how we can be more welcoming.

yancy RWH

Please please please, let's drop this one and keep this a...

begging.gif

Hey RWH ,

I just wanted to send a quick note of public thanks for your participation in this thread. We may not share the same opinions, but you've remained pretty measured in your posts. I appreciate that, and your involvement here. I'd also like to echo bingopodcast 's sentiments of gratitude for your service to our country.

Sincerely,
Ryan

I know this was so thirty-something posts ago, but I just watched this video ( thanks cait001 ) and, much like solarvalue , I learned some things, too. Essentially it answers questions such as:

While the video is about topics of race in the states, rather than discrimination against the LGBTQ community in Canada, I have a feeling you'll be able to draw some parallels, and perhaps better understand some more viewpoints in this thread.

This is awfully big of you, @mistermoberg and wanted to recognize it publicly. Thank you for coming back and posting as much.

If you're willing, I'd be curious what brought about your change of heart.

Hi @mistermoberg ,

I appreciate your humility in not wanting to make this about you. There's certainly a different dynamic when it's in a public forum, too (I'd be happy to chat privately if you're interested), but I'm genuinely interested in the turn-about you've experienced.

Just as an example, I used to think that women's leagues were unnecessary, thinking, "Isn't that just a type of segregation?" But then I think it might have been Josh Sharpe who said something to the effect of, "Let's just ask women their opinion," which was a brilliantly simple solution that, regrettably, I'd overlooked. After listening to a lot of women's accounts and hearing about how women's events and Belles and Chimes chapters felt a lot more comfortable, it started to make a lot of sense to me. I guess I'm just curious if you had some similar thoughts, or if perhaps there was some different considerations taking place. Again, I'm not above learning, either. I'm trying to learn from you this time.

Regardless, if a public or private post is outside your comfort zone right now, no biggie. I (and others who have made themselves visible on this thread) will be here if you ever feel like reaching out.

Finally, to address your concern about this not being about you, I kinda think this is about all of us. So, in that way, it's about you, too. This can't work without everyone (or at least a majority) buying in. So, perhaps your thoughts could help us move that needle.

Thanks, again, for giving all this some consideration,
Ryan

Aaand just to avoid ending on that note...Ha-ha!...I thought I'd thank everyone here who participated in this discussion. I think it's healthy to keep these types of discussions open and ongoing. Without them, progress is (more) difficult. So, for that, thanks to robin and the mods for keeping this thread open. Also, cait001 , thanks for starting it in the first place, as well as staying active and level-headed. You're a saint. If anyone feels like reaching out to discuss any of this, you're welcome to PM me.

Before this thread withers away, I'd like to make a sincere query to robin to see what you think about cait001 's idea about polling the Belles and Chimes chapters to...

This is a sincere question about an actionable item for making Pinside a more welcoming place for ALL pinheads.

Serious question here; I'm honestly trying to recall how Zach (Josh, actually) Sharpe was "gone after." Do you mind elaborating on what you thought was unfair in this conversation?

I'd also be genuinely interested in what you're classifying as...

We obviously have different perspectives on this, but I'm sincerely trying to better understand yours and what bothered you about the roundtable discussion.

Ah! Same (been a bit since I've listened). Maybe that was it (Zach MENY). I guess since he wasn't part of the discussion, I'd put him out of my mind. Regardless, perhaps Gunnut40 can specify.

This thread has been on my mind a lot, lately. I keep wanting to chime in here to ask if Pinside has made any proactive moves toward a more inclusive and welcoming environment. I think we've got a few viable suggestions on this thread. Gentle reminder:

1. Polling Belles and Chimes chapters for their thoughts on Pinside and areas of improvement

2. Once that information is gathered, perhaps a follow-up to all participants asking about willingness to serve on a Pinside Diversity Board

3. Similarly, ask participants about willingness to become a Pinside moderator.

I'm guessing it would be a daunting commitment for one non-white male to make, jumping into a mod position. However, if this request follows a pro-active interest in making Pinside a more welcoming place AND there were several folks from underrepresented groups who joined all at once, it might feel more approachable.

Just some thoughts.