This is a great episode and it is always important to hear from diverse voices to learn ways to be a better human being - opening a small, inwardly-focused world like the pinball community to other perspectives is a good thing.

It was very interesting to hear the positive steps an organization like the IFPA is making as I don't follow that portion of the hobby very much.

Thanks for posting.

I heard a zero tolerance policy mentioned but no one spelled out exactly what that meant.

If that means kicking people out on every unsubstantiated allegation I’m against it.

Anyone going to listen to this crap?

Definitely. I would encourage you to listen instead of casting judgement. This is a great podcast and a great lineup of speakers.

I don't think that was meant to derail. It's a legitimate question.

Why is it crap? Do you have a racist sexist podcast? Is competition to your male white supremacy triggering you, snowflake?

Oh okay, my bad. It sounded like he was responding to something mentioned in the podcast so it seemed like a relevant comment/question. I stand corrected.

liberal progressives HAVE to destroy everything. always an agenda.

I listened great discussion... This thread though, stellar representation of the hobby guys... Stay classy

Destroy what? White supremacy? Sexism? This is the hill you want to die on?

What are you talking about?

It’s a podcast.

This is an interesting podcast and an important topic. I re-opened it for ON TOPIC discussion. If you don't like the subject matter, please DRAIN the thread. We don't need any HATE on Pinside so please leave that at the door. Please do keep in mind that politics are not allowed on Pinside so please keep that in mind while posting.

The thread is in audit mode for now, so all posts will be monitored for on-topicness etc.

Be nice to eachother!

Thanks,
Robin

I listened and agree, great episode. Thanks to all of the guests for being a part of it. If this conversation upsets you, it's possible you are a part of the problem. Let's all work to be a part of the solution.

When I stepped away from pinball some I went back to my first competitive love, the fighting game community. I press more buttons in Street Fighter than on pinball cabinets these days. Just a different facet of the arcade focus I've always had, I'm sure at some point something will excite me in pinball and draw be back in more again. Or not, see where the winds blow.

In the meantime one thing I really enjoy about the FGC is how incredibly diverse it is. It's really night and day going to a fighting game tournament vs a pinball tournament.

When we're facing off in a fighting game or taking turns on a pin I really don't care who you are. Love of the hobby and competition brought us together, and that's enough.

But when we're not competing, and just being part of a bigger community? It's awesome to have so many more different perspectives. The discussions and the community are so much richer for it. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I'm well on my way to becoming an old white man myself, I have nothing but love for old white men. But pinball would be a better scene if it was more than that. And even the old white guys would benefit from it, trust me.

I regret that a thread like this is so controversial that it had to be locked, and re-opened under this approval mode. It's a real discussion stifler. I honestly probably won't try and swim upstream against that, and I don't blame anyone else for not wanting to either. But if you are reading this, just consider that anything that brings more diversity into the hobby brings new life with it.

What things are you looking to enshrine?

i never ever went to an event and had a thought on the people that would be there. black, white, gay, male or female. i just go and get along with everybody. i dont have to split hairs on why certain people are not there playing thats the hill i am on.

In the interest of discussion, throw out a couple of the changes you think are impactful and let’s talk about them.

There's a couple things we can look at when it comes to your perspective.

First, your initial response was a lot more vitriolic, and claimed that people who were looking for more diversity were looking to "destroy" things. It's interesting that being more welcoming, and more inclusive would be seen as destructive, it implies you really want to protect a certain status quo. If you actually "get along with everybody" why does the prospect of everybody including more diverse faces seem to frighten you? You can see why that sounds confusing if you stop and think about it.

That really gets to the heart of the matter though, and this isn't just about you personally, you're just representing the viewpoint perfectly: If you're already benefitting from a system it's often hard to care about changing it.

Throughout history there have always been people who are in the club who don't care about the people outside who can't get in. You're comfortable, you already have a table, what's the problem?

This comes in a lot of flavors, from subtle to outrageous and ugly. Pinball doesn't have a Whites Only drinking fountain problem. There are no signs posted, and nobody is being turned away at the door.

There's also no denying that pinball is Hella White™. Pinball has been Hella Male™ for a long time too, and we're slowly seeing that change. More women playing didn't just happen by itself, it took outreach and effort and speaking up, and it's very much an ongoing process. Again, there weren't signs hung that said Men Only. But it's been well documented how women could often be made to feel uncomfortable or unwelcome at events and leagues.

If you're a man you might not even be aware of it unless it's explicitly pointed out to you. As cait001 says, that's privilege, when you're already comfortable, so you don't see how others might not be. I've been guilty of it myself, and have expanded my understanding by listening. And I enjoy having more women play, as far as I'm concerned we all win.

This doesn't make men bad. And it doesn't make white people bad either in this situation. You don't have to be defensive, nobody is trying to destroy you, or take anything away from you. As I said in my earlier post about the fighting game community, as white guy I benefit from greater diversity in my community. It's better for it. You shouldn't be looking at anything being destroyed. These conversations, while often awkward and uncomfortable at first, actually benefit everyone in the end.

You downvoted my post, so I don't really imagine you're listening. That's okay, I'm not here to change your mind. I don't actually get along with everybody like you claim to, I'm good with not spending my time with some folk. But maybe others are reading who find my thoughts on this interesting in some way.

fyi i grew up hanging at chinatown fair in mott street. there were many many fights. there were groups of people that were not inclusive like you say they are. most were divided into asian, white, black groups maybe it was back in the day but the group of fighting community was not an utopia. btw the people that fight for equality seem to be the most divisive. look in the mirror. if people dont agree with the utopia you are trying to create we are called all type of derogatory names and insults. guess what there will NEVER be a star trek type utopia ever anywhere. forcing agendas turns people off. btw i dont have “privilege” i worked very hard for everything i ever had and it disgusts me when people say others have privilege. i grew up in the gutter in brooklyn and had many of irish cop kick my ass just for being on the corner dont speak to me about racial equality. you really come off as a condenscending person when people dont agree with your utopian views.

Good lord.

It's a tough job, but we all gotta work hard for our privilege.

Reminds me of the classic joke. You can call a white person whatever and not offend them. Except racist. That really upsets them.

So what happened to the colorblind Robotron of two posts ago who gets along with everybody and is totally above concerns about peoples' races, genders, and sexuality?

Get that guy back here please, he seems a lot cooler.

See, no one ever said it was a utopia, just that it's more diverse, and that's a really nice benefit when it comes to community. You get more viewpoints and experiences. You're putting words in my mouth that I never said. There are some real jerks in the fighting game community. There are racists, and sexists, and homophobes. Just like any other large group of people, you get the good and the bad. Pinball has those too, it's just that most of them are white, only real difference. All human. The good outweigh the bad in both communities in my experience.

I have a lot of fighting game friends who came up playing at Chinatown Fair, they're good people. Your story about how they were all racially divided is a lie, sorry, sounds like you didn't know them very well. I could call up a bunch right now. Black, white, Asian, Dominican, all found each other through a shared love of play. All of them will have stories about fights and conflict, that's how arcade life was. None of them are out there scrapping now, they're raising families and grown up. Some people mature.

I haven't called you any names. I just said you were lying about Chinatown Fair, you picked the wrong place to try and prove your point, I have way too many homies from that place. But where are the derogatory names and insults? What's the forced agenda? We're just trying to have a conversation. I merely shared my point of view that I found benefits as a white person from being in a community with more diversity.

People with privilege often aren't even aware of it, it's a very common phenomenon. The first thing you see is how they find a way they've been wronged by life to prove that it doesn't exist. I might sound a little condescending to you, it's probably because you started the thread with "liberal progressives HAVE to destroy everything" and it made it hard to take anything you said all that seriously. Having privilege isn't something to be ashamed of, you don't get to pick how you're born. What matters is how you decide to live life and treat other people. Sometimes that means recognizing things that might make you uncomfortable.

And yet, I still believe you'd benefit from this idea that you're afraid of. Maybe you wished you could have played with the other guys at Chinatown Fair and were nervous about their races, I don't know. Could be you'd be a different person now if you'd been welcomed better, who knows? Be that person who welcomes others now, and be that better future for some young players.

Some people wake up each & every day and need to find something to be offended about. That certainly applies here. Listen to yourselves, you're embarrassing and undignified.

Some people, like you, wake up every day and don’t think about being profiled, stalked, kidnapped, killed. That’s what privilege is. You have it. You’re unaware of it because you’ve never had to think about it. Try listening to the life experiences of other people. Have empathy and understanding. No one wakes up finding things to be offended about.

Privilege has nothing to do with your work ethic. It means you don’t have the extra systemic societal obstacles that women, people of color, and other marginalized people have to deal with on a daily basis. It’s not an insult when people talk about privilege. It’s just a statement of fact & something to be aware of so that perhaps you can have empathy for people who go through shit you’ve never had to even think about.

^^^ This is privilege.
“It doesn’t affect me, so who cares.”
“I’ve never heard of it, so I will belittle it as not relevant”.

It would really benefit a bunch of you to stop being stubborn and angry about a topic that’s asking nothing from you but to LISTEN to the life experience of other human beings & imagine what it’s like to walk in their shoes. Others sharing their experience is NOT an attack on you.

There are many places to discuss what privilege is, who has it, and why it’s bad.

What are some specific changes you want at pinball events?

Why does diversity scare you so much? Trying to make our hobby more inclusive for all is not a bad thing. You can still play pinball the same way you used to, that won't change. But don't tell us that we are "real fuckin stupid" for trying to make a positive change.

To reach a wider audience, I'd like to explain what is currently going on in the Chess community online.

Chess is reasonably inclusive... expect for one condition: you need(ed) to be a good player to be accepted. A little bit as if everyone was checking your IFPA ranking before deciding if anything you have to say is valuable on Pinside.

This elite, exclusive-club mentality is being shattered, in part because one of the best players, Hikaru Nakamura, started streaming. He was a bit unconventional but his most brillant recent move has been to ask famous streamers from other games to participate. And it worked ! Some of these bloggers / streamers got 45 millions followers (!)... and yet played and commented chess games. They're not great players (yet), but they are fun, they bring a lot of fresh air and young blood in a relatively dusty discipline. Some streamers are female (e.g. Alexandra Botez) in this relatively male-dominated community. A few games online involved two of these streamers facing each other after a few days of special training with their "Grand Master". It was fun watching online the GM trainers scratch their heads while they were playing.

So we need more people like Jack Danger - podcasts won't bring new players in.
If you can bring in younger people, many biases can vanish.

Pretty sure you just said "I'm a rich white guy and I don't want anyone else in my club".

I don't want that, and I don't want anyone to be told they are "fuckin stupid" for wanting that.

Come on man, that’s not really constructive. I actually find your post pretty awful. If you don’t have anything to add to the topic then pretty please just drain it and move on.

Hey remember that infamous "Pinside Purge" a few years ago? This thread is a good template if you ever want to look into that deeper.

Events are probably just fine, it's the culture behind them that matters.

It's good to remember that Pinside isn't all of pinball. Robin has built a big community here, through a lot of effort, but we really only represent parts of the hobby still.

That said, let's say you're a young black man or woman, out with some friends at a bar, and find a pin. You've never played before, you give it a try, and you get hooked. We all know that story. You want to know how these rules work, how to find more games, all the usual stuff.

You hop online to find out more, you find Pinside, and here's the diversity thread. You read the comments and come across "Its a hobby for well off white guys and that's not gonna change, nor does it need to." You read comments about how liberals are trying to destroy the hobby by just trying to have a discussion about diversity. It sounds like a good old boys white club.

Be real, would that make you want to attend a show? Does that sound welcoming?

It's not just a handful of people either who say these things too, it's a persistent undercurrent any time this topic remotely comes up. Anyone who's been here a while could predict these comments. There's a reason this thread is in "post approval mode" right?

So right now, while there are no events to attend anyways, I think the focus should start where the discussion is. Most people only go to a handful of events a year at most, but many are here every day or every week talking. Any new people to the hobby are going to start on the internet now, that's just the world at the moment.

Decide where you want to stand. You don't have to march in the streets, but you can be a part of the voices that reject those comments. Drown them out, be a positive force. Don't let it slide, not here, not on Facebook, not anywhere you're a part of things.

People should feel embarrassed to post something as dumb as "pinball should stay white", but it takes social pressure to create that environment. Clearly right now it's seen as an okay thing to say. I appreciate Robin's comment, but it takes the village sometimes.