Serious question here; I'm honestly trying to recall how Zach (Josh, actually) Sharpe was "gone after." Do you mind elaborating on what you thought was unfair in this conversation?

I'd also be genuinely interested in what you're classifying as...

We obviously have different perspectives on this, but I'm sincerely trying to better understand yours and what bothered you about the roundtable discussion.

I think he was referring to Zach from Flip-N-Out on Zach’s podcast but it’s been a while since I listened so I could be mistaken.

Ah! Same (been a bit since I've listened). Maybe that was it (Zach MENY). I guess since he wasn't part of the discussion, I'd put him out of my mind. Regardless, perhaps Gunnut40 can specify.

This thread has been on my mind a lot, lately. I keep wanting to chime in here to ask if Pinside has made any proactive moves toward a more inclusive and welcoming environment. I think we've got a few viable suggestions on this thread. Gentle reminder:

1. Polling Belles and Chimes chapters for their thoughts on Pinside and areas of improvement

2. Once that information is gathered, perhaps a follow-up to all participants asking about willingness to serve on a Pinside Diversity Board

3. Similarly, ask participants about willingness to become a Pinside moderator.

I'm guessing it would be a daunting commitment for one non-white male to make, jumping into a mod position. However, if this request follows a pro-active interest in making Pinside a more welcoming place AND there were several folks from underrepresented groups who joined all at once, it might feel more approachable.

Just some thoughts.

But?....
Well what if?....
Umm....

So now what???

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In what sense is pinside not welcoming and including?

I really dont see it as a problem aslong as the hobby or whatever it is welcomes everybody.
I dont see it as a merit trying to convince some kind of group to participate, just to get representation.

If there is a problem with certain groups not reaching and beeing able to try and get fond of a hobby like this, the thread should have taken another turn and being formulated in another and more constructive way. Now it´s oozing of who´s fault is it, instead of creative suggestions.

In what sense is it racist?
I think there is a real problem, that grows bigger, that white people really cant and wont interact with other ethnics groups, due to the feel, that it can only go wrong, and if that trend continues, we have a progressivly worse situation.
Granted my perspective probably differs, since beeing from sweden.

I'd also add the random pictures of sexy women that randomly show up in some threads. Seems better than it used to be and the NSFW tag helps. Sometimes the photos are relevant to a topic, but most of the time it's just bored posters who think of pinside as their boy's club.

It's not that there is anything wrong with looking at pictures of beautiful women, but there are plenty of better ways to do it then while you're trying to discuss/learn about the pinball hobby.

I agree

In all fairness I dont think you can call a flow chart depicting how boxed in our culture's way of thinking has become as a "Racist Meme"
Its more to show that pretty much race has become such an emphasis now that even when you try to do something from a good place there are definitions to show it comes from a place of racism. Its pretty sad.

The fact that "Pinside" allows this thread to stay open shows they are being inclusive and inviting by breaking their own rules. Whether you like it or not and this will sting, identity politics are still POLITICS. And we know the rules of Pinside about politics.

Thats the "Cultural Appropriation" block of the chart. Cant win man!

That's why there's sections of pinside like the basement. If you don't want to see pics of women, stay out of the basement.
Being an online forum, you can stay pretty anonymous if you like. No one knows if you're male, female, white, black, what have you.
Pinside seems pretty inclusive to me.

Well as an American, our racial relations have made huge strides the past few hundred years while still having a lot more to go to create a harmonious situation. Hundreds of years of slavery, institutional segregation, and limited opportunity for social and economic growth compounded over multiple generations is not going to disappear without a lot of time and effort. I don't know what the ethnic makeup of your area is like, whereas I live in an extremely diverse area.

Broadly speaking, if someone feels that they cannot interact with other racial groups because they are full of fear and doubt that they will somehow offend and be punished for a minor transgression, then that is an issue with that particular individual. It's a good sign that they are slightly aware that they can be offensive, yet they need to have the faith and trust in their fellow man that mistakes can be forgiven if the offender is willing to apologize and commit to self-improvement. No body is out to get you unless you are truly an unapologetic, ignorant ass.

This was a point I raised in a conversation with my brother the other day and basically the thought nowadays is "because you purposely are ignoring those factors makes you racist"
WTF How?!!!!

What a shit show.

Any thread aboot divorce

It’s a pretty erotic circle jerk of hate over there

The reputation as the largest pinball focused social media platform is one Robin should be proud of. People are as anonymous as they want to be here, so your accusation that Pinside specifically has a limited demographic can’t be substantiated. You just made it up because of your confirmation bias.

Many hobbies could be more diverse. Pinball isn’t an exception to that. Pinside reflects the diversity of the community as a whole.

With any large group there will be elements you don’t like. Deal with it. Robin provides some tools like draining posts, threads, sub-forums, and users.

Trolling Pinside reminding everyone how unwelcoming we are isn’t going to move the needle where we want it to go and is a violation as well.

Idk how it's trolling to have one or two threads dedicated to the topic. This one in particular seems condoned by the staff.

Further, if having the simple discussion to reflect on why the hobby is so white and has remained predominately male isn't going to "move the needle" then what will? There is nothing inherently wrong with a bunch of white dudes liking the hobby, but pinball should be fun for everyone and sometimes it takes self-reflection to figure out why this incredibly fun game isn't more popular with everyone else. (Cost of course is a big factor, but it doesn't explain everything)

I'm still trying to figure out why the local knitting group isn't more popular with all demographics... it's not the cost...

Go look at many hobbies/sports... are they as diverse as theoretically possible? Most aren't. Why? Because people associate around or gravitate to things for their own reasons - not just because something is 'exclusive' or 'inclusive'.

Some have historical basis that carry across generations. Example: segregation and how that impacts how many african americans approach swimming today. It doesn't mean swimming today isn't inclusive or has a race problem - its carry-over from how prior generations grew up and how they in turn raised their kids.

People often are molded by their surroundings and peers... what they are conditioned to appreciate... or what they push for. If that doesn't point to your hobby - why is it your hobby's problem to fix?

Be there with open arms - not make it your mission to go and 'fix' it so people magically want to participate now.

Having a diverse group helps reduce fears for someone who is different from joining in... but having some measuring stick of just 'how diverse' you are supposed to be is an artificial construct in itself.

It's because of toxic masculinity that has ingrained into society that men can't openly enjoy things like knitting. It's that simple.

But you're right to a degree, it's a product of the broader American culture. There was a lot of segregation in arcades, where they were placed, and how easy it was for different demographics to visit them (eg the "good mall" in the suburbs vs "the dangerous mall" in the city core). There are simply a lot of minorities that did not grow up with the game during the heyday, which was exacerbated by how few public locations were left to play at.

I guess the thing is, I don't necessarily see it as a problem that needs to be "fixed" but rather something worth critical thought as to how the hobby ended up the way it has. And a vital part of keeping the hobby and industry healthy is finding more people to join the hobby, so knowing how the hobby got to this place can guide future decision making in keeping the hobby as open and broadly appealing as possible. It's not "fixing" a problem, it's ensuring that the hobby remains healthy and can be enjoyed by as many people as possible for generations to come.

But it's not a video gamers problem.. or even the game maker's problem that arcades were built around collecting quarters.. and not everyone could beg money from their parents to dump in the arcade every week. It's just a reality of the circumstances. It's an outcome - not an exclusion.

If you were writing a history documenting and not speculating.. I'd agree. But these threads have not been about history... they have been about what change to drive to reach some artificial constructed utopia of what they think the hobby SHOULD look like... and calling out the current state of the hobby as an issue. That is 'seeking a fix'. People look at the population at an event and believe it is wrong because it doesn't line up with some percentages they believe it should be.

Meanwhile... there are no masses waiting at the door who can't get in.

I'm with Cait. I get sick of going over to peoples houses and theres nothing there but a bunch of old white guys drinking beer, farting, and using foul language.

I want to see more hot chicks and NOOO not only white ones either. I want to see white ones, black ones, Asian ones, Spanish ones, whatever. Bring on the dancing girls!

Sounds good too me.

Still I'd argue that the game maker have done little to try to get out of the niche and that they should be concerned with appealing to as many people as possible because it affects their bottom line. It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy when almost all games are aimed at the same core demographic. (White men aged 40-70)

And how does pinball attract those masses? By making the hobby more broadly appealing. That's more variety in themes, more welcoming locations to play, and more variety in how games play to accommodate various skill levels (kudos to co-op modes becoming a feature and easy ways to see unique wizard modes)

This is like if I said "there are millions of fish in the sea" and you said "prove it, count 'em." It's just obvious.

Sorry - this is activist thinking - not business thinking.

A business identifies who they think their customers will be - or who they will try to recruit as customers, and build products for that. That's business reality. It's incredibly rare to be "one thing that fits everyone" - especially if you are an entertainment or preference product. "should be concerned with appealing to as many people as possible" is armchair quarterback talk with some rose glass ideal that "more potential customers has to be better..". You can't be everything to everyone... unless you are something utilitarian like... toilet paper.

Your marketing will be tailored to a target audience...
Your features will be focused on a target customer...

This isn't exclusionist - it's how you build and sell stuff! Don't waste time and money on people who aren't your audience. Ensure your product has a target and that it addresses their needs.

If the customer base is fractured or devisive... decide if you need other products to fit the different needs. You don't try to make 'My Little Pony' fit every type of customer... you decide if you want another product to speak to the other customer types out there.

If Stern or someone decides their limited capacity should be focusing on the white men 40-70 as you call it... that's a business decision on what they believe will sell. If someone wants them to build product aimed at urban 12-18yr olds... make the business case to them that it will work. Not simply preach "reach more people" - They are in the job of selling stuff - not evangelizing.

Sure when companies get big enough, and they have enough resources to diversify into other less profitable, or higher risk ventures, it's great that they do so. But don't think for a minute you can goto any business owner and say "You really need to be marketing to a wider audience... because... diversity!"

Money talks.

If they aren't going to be the people buying the product, or the customers driving the business of the people buying the games... Why should they care?

You gotta make a case there is a market there before you advocate there needs to be product there. And simply arguing "lack of diversity" is not a business case to show that those other demographics are eager to be your customer.

Well at least 2/3rds of the population doesn't care about their product (and that feels like a generous estimate). Seems like a market worth going after...

Like you agree that a one-size fits all approach doesn't work, yet that is what Stern does with their three to four games a year. They show little ambition in expanding the hobby to women and minorities based on the themes they select.

I'd be one thing if Stern did try to branch out into other themes and they failed, but they don't even try to. They take the safest gambles and are extremely risk averse. Which is fine to a degree, they need to stay in business because they're the backbone of the industry. But it hurts them in the long run because they're very limited and hyper focused in their target to expand the hobby, the industry, and their potential buying base.

At a certain point, a business has to be ok with losing some potential ROI in exchanged for expanding their market. This is true in any industry where the dominate player has cornered the market and has to find new ways to continue growth.

I'm just going to put this out here right now, to all of my Male friends.....if you enjoy knitting please lose my number right now lol.....no seriously please do!

Here is what you people arent smart enough to understand. The only reason people of any race or gender don't play pinball is because THEY DONT WANT TO!! The sad truth is most women do not like pinball and that's why they dont play, just like most women do not enjoy working on cars or watching certain sports etc. They simply dont want to or they would.

I am going to guess that "most" African Americans dont like pinball or they would be playing it more. I mean theres nothing stopping them from playing so that's obviously the reason that alot of them dont play. We are all different and we like different things. That is never going to change in a million years so get over it and quit trying to force something that isnt there.

Every person in this country is free to enjoy the things that they want to enjoy, doesnt matter if you are white, black, brown straight or gay. Nobody gives a shit as much as you think they do, it's all in your racist and sexist little heads trust me. If you are gay I will play pinball with you, just dont pinch me on the ass while I'm playing and we will be fine. You got that Gunnut40?

Grow up people for real and stop living in your racist and hate filled fantasy land!

Again.. armchair thinking. # of people doesn't make a market. # of people WITH MONEY and INTEREST/NEED - makes a market.

Maybe you're new to the hobby... but that's EXACTLY what Stern has been because they were so thin, one or two misses was enough to sink the entire company. That's what you seem to be missing... They live in the reality of selling and paying bills - not the armchair QB world of spending other people's money with nothing at risk.

Gary is an accountant. They couldn't afford 'chance'. If someone wants to take a risk and prove a different market opportunity - they can do so. That's exactly what Jack G did when he started JJP. But to suggest Stern is missing out - without any real market analysis besides "hey, there is lots of people!!" is just foolishness.

What is it that I'm saying that is so racist or hateful to you? You're the one who hates on a guy just because he might enjoy knitting...

Anyhow, most people don't play pinball because they haven't had much of a chance to experience it, let alone decide their opinion of if they like it or not. And a lot of that is where games are available to play and what about the game might attract someone who hasn't played before (on top of other factors like how the game plays and the cost to play)

That was fine for Stern in 2008. Stern has had explosive sales year over year for several years in a row now. They sell them as fast as they can make them. Why not try a little more? That's all

You can yell "business reasons" at me all you like. But fundamentally, you don't know jack more than I do about the inner workings of Stern.

You are dead on, has nothing to do with you living in Sweden. I was talking about this with my dark skin homies the other night. They even suggested that it is probably better for me to not engage with blacks right now that I do not know. Everything that is going on is actually making race issues worse.

Because the only people who give a rat's ass about racism or sexism are the ones that talk about it. Do you really think that anyone cares if they are in a bar playing pinball and a gay person or person of color comes in and starts playing pinball too? Nobody cares about shit like that. How the hell would I even know if someone is gay or not? I'm certainly not going to ask them.

I disagree. I'm happy when I see anyone play on location. I love pinball and like to see other people enjoying it. You not wanting to talk to other people playing pinball says more about you than anything else.

And you didn't really answer the question. What did I say that was so racist or hateful to you? It's not racist/sexist to simply talk about racism/sexism existing and the way it influences society on a large and small scale.

edit: also this is a thread about diversity in pinball....what did you expect people to talk about if not racism and sexism

You don't need to know the interworkings of Stern to know that the basics of sales and production still hold true.

Irony - you say I don't know what they can tolerate.. but without any inside knowledge you use 'explosive sales' as justification to know what they can tolerate.

Revenue is only one piece of the story.

I do talk to people when I'm out playing pinball but 90% of the talk is about pinball. I dont say things like "hey dude you gay?" or "hey buddy, how come black guys dont play pinball?"

It's like no one else's opinion matters to you.

Cait I know that you don't understand it and you don't want to accept it but the truth is nobody really cares about the agenda that you are trying to push on everyone. I dont mean that in a rude way either but nobody cares.

White males are not fighting to keep gay people or people of different races out of pinball. I'm not going to fight to bring them in but I'm not going to fight to keep them out either. I will play pinball with anyone that wants to play pinball but the minute they pull their political, racist or sexist BS on me I will no longer want to play with them anymore......and yes that has happened to me personally.

Yeah, no sane person would

But if I was playing next to some dude and we're chatting about pinball, and suddenly his boyfriend walks up, I would probably say "Oh, is this your partner? Nice to meet you"

You can be nice and not be a weirdo at the same time.

It's not inside knowledge that Stern is doing gangbusters. Someone like George Gomez is thrilled to tell you stuff that sales are up 30% over last year and that they've shipped games to 100 different countries or whatever.

A bit of a scattered rant, so bear with me...

Why would a mall in a city be any more dangerous compared to one in the suburbs? What makes it dangerous? If I think I get what you are saying, wouldn't that just be perpetuating what you are saying you are against? This is confusing to me. Seriously.

Back in my day, the city malls around my parts ALWAYS had the best arcades, with the latest games, and that usually meant us younger folks had to wait for the older people or kids to move on to another game so we could play. Conversely, the arcades in the 'burbs always had the older or less popular games.

Perhaps you are suggesting socio-economic barriers to pinball?

I guess at the end of the day, people are tribal; they like to do what they are familiar with, with those they are familiar with. People generally like to conform. This cuts across all races, backgrounds, classes...it's literally instinctual.

Small examples, but examples nonetheless:

My wife's parents (who happen to be a mixed race couple, but that's not what I'm getting at...) happen to be of a religious persuasion that like to (annoyingly) knock on people's doors to tell them about it. They tend to socialize with other "door knockers".

A neighbor of mine is a proud Italian. He is what most would call a "paison"; in fact, if he likes you, he calls you a "paison" as well. Guess what he does literally every Saturday? He plays cards in the back of a fellow Italian immigrant's barber shop with other Italians.

I like to play pinball. Guess what I do every Monday night when covid isn't in town? I play pinball with other pinball people! And it's a pretty fun, and welcoming to ALL that show up. And it's a diverse crowd, pretty much the entire gamut of the the human condition (gay, straight, trans, liberal, conservative, black, white, short, fat, ugly, pretty, rich, redneck, bougie, extrovert, introvert, poor, etc., etc., etc.) Maybe it's like cats and dogs getting together, but we all have a good time, and we even bust each other's chops too! Crazy!

Maybe the "scene" is different up here in the Northeast, but pinball might actually be one of the most people "diverse" things I do!

Pinball not welcoming? I haven't seen it...not saying that YOU haven't, but most people I talk to tend to agree.

Maybe I just wasn't looking, but I didn't see a group of nazi's/black panthers/mafiosos/etc. out in front of Pinburgh last year trying to scare people off.

I'm well aware of of all the world's tragedies, but I find that if you do what's right, treat others with respect, and generally not be an asshole, it gets you pretty far.

I'll probably regret hitting "post", but I come here to ESCAPE from the world and discuss pinball, with like minded pinball people. But here I am. I guess I just take for granted the disproportionately large amount of kind people I've met in this hobby. From ALL walks of life. Or maybe I just like to type. I don't know. I'm out.

Well I wouldn't say that because I just dont care enough to say that. What if the guy said "hell no asshole I ain't gay" and then he beat the hell out of you? Better just to keep your mouth shut and play pinball in my opinion.