But it’s on YouTube!

Not worried about it. We are here to talk about why more gay and black people dont play pinball. We already know the answer is because they dont like the hobby but you will never believe that I am sure.

No offense but that article is just really stupid and inaccurate.

Congratulations Cait, you have totally turned this into a racial thread rather than a pinball diversity thread.

ACAB

Life is definitely too short to watch a YouTube video 'debunking' BLM. Imagine being the sad sack who made that video in the first place, how many hours did they pour into that? Making charts and shit. Probably needed something to do after no one would engage with their tweets about how gamergate was really about ethics in game journalism anymore.

I'm putting anyone who posts links like that on ignore, won't catch me getting baited. Next thing you know they're gonna be linking Candace Owens videos and my day will just be ruined. Gotta play it safe in these Pinside streets.

And what is wrong with an intelligent, conservative black woman? Sounds kinda racist to me.

I don’t care to listen to this. I don’t care to read the thread.

Why is pinball segregated? Why are there women’s tournaments? It’s stupid. It’s not like basketball - where there’s obvious reasons as to why there are separate leagues. I understand women’s pinball groups, but not women’s pinball tournaments.

Why not LGBT pinball tournaments? Why not POC pinball tournaments? Because it’s stupid, that’s why. Everyone has the opportunity to be equally good at pinball.

IN REAL LIFE:

I just want the black and brown stripes off of the rainbow flag. All lives matter. That is all.

I agree, I love Candice Owen's. She is a very very intelligent woman.

I only came here to respond to your comments that someone pointed out to me. But I’m sick of people being ignorant for the sake of being ignorant. You don’t have to go out being an activist for all causes but you also don’t have to be a dick to people with opinions different of your own? You think women’s tournaments are stupid? Guess what I think your never ending antics and showmanship while you play are stupid. I let you do them because it didn’t affect me nor did it harm anyone, and I never said anything about it. You don’t like wow men’s events and won’t educate yourself as to why they exist? Fine keep it to yourself then. Why are their separate women’s tournaments you ask? We may all have equal ability to play well like you said but we can’t get all of them to play in regular events because many men don’t make them feel comfortable at those events. And spouting off saying you don’t think they should exist just fuels that fire of why they don’t want to come to open events.

Sorry if your life is so sad you have to take it out on others. There’s plenty to do and enjoy in this life. Stop going out of your way to come into a thread about diversity if your not here to have an open conversation. This isn’t about you. Your antics have been tolerated long enough and are flat out annoying. But spouting off ignorance won’t be tolerated around here ok? We’ve welcomed you into our places and given you many chances. You won’t keep getting them. You’re young. You still have A LOT of learning to do in life. I really hope you learn a lot more before you find no place left for you in this hobby.

I won't posture a reason why male blacks are not more prevalent in pinball as I believe it's an argument that given the climate leaves no middle ground for debate. I don't really understand the LGBT due to the fact that 95% percent of people would not know or just think you were gay so to me this seems more like an identity issue rather than something that prevents them from participating in pinball. Don't get wrong I'm positive that if some knew they may be prejudiced towards them I just don't see a glaring sign that separates them. If I'm missing something with the LGBT community please correct me as I hate to admit it but I only know what I've read or saw on a news outlet and I know there can be much I'm ignorant of.

Female participation across the board would greatly improve if the males in our sport could exhibit a little more class and treat them as fellow enthusiast or serious competitors instead of eye candy. I know not all of us are smucks some learn but, I'm as equally sure that "all" are guilty of not treating them as you would a fellow male enthusiast.

Jim - I appreciate your response. It is an open conversation on diversity - why I chimed in.

Yeah - my antics are stupid - that’s the point. If it ever bugs anybody, I apologize to them after the fact and will do it again here and now. I won four Sanctum knockouts in recent memory partially because of them. You think I’m a better player than you or Davey or Holly? Of course I’m not, everyone knows that. Pinball is full of colorful characters - it’s what makes our community cool. Adam Becker, Testa, etc. Nice people.

I mean - if we wanna dig deep into this - and if I’m to provide an articulate response - I can.

If women do feel uncomfortable going to tournaments because of other people, regardless of gender, that’s unfortunate. It’s a perspective I’ve considered, and it’s an issue I can understand, but can’t relate to, because I’m not a woman and it’s my own ignorance that has me speaking that way. I wish people would treat every one with respect - I always treat male and female participants in the hobby the same whether they be collectors, tournament folks, or restoration experts. I’m willing to learn and have learned from anyone.

I’m not taking anything out on others. I see Boston Belles & Chimes events, and I see more competitors that don’t always come to open events. I want more competition, I want open tournaments to be larger, because there are so many talented women in the game.

I remember one event at FTJ’s where Mitch had made a custom translite to honor Boston Belles & Chimes. Several of them were there, and I thought that was awesome.

Jim, my life isn’t sad, it’s pretty glorious. I just think the world would be more glorious if we all came together.

Jim - I think your message has re-educated me as to why these events are important, as I deduced earlier in this response. I just want the chance to play with everyone - that’s what it comes down to. WMPC is a really mixed crowd, and it’s really quite fantastic. Lots of newbies coming up to play - and some of them beating me! Be it WMPC or The Sanctum or wherever, I very much look forward to seeing everyone again.

I’m moving in 2021 and will be setting up a small pinball scene where I’m relocating to by the end of the next year, barring a famine or global unrest. I certainly will be encouraging all to participate.

This community is fantastic - I’ve said it time and time again.

I'll have the popcorn ready for all the melted flasher domes.

As many of you can attest, my house is always open for anyone to come over, shoot the breeze, and play some pinball. If you don't feel comfortable here, that's cool, if you do the door is open.

Very nice of you to offer.

I'd like to hear this, feel free to DM me. Don't know why it wouldn't be relevant, she's a black woman with her own views on diversity.

It’s weird when people won’t listen to any black people about their life experiences except the ONE who works for a white supremacist/sexist like Dennis Prager that says what they want to hear.

It’s like when people deny climate change because 1 scientist disputes thousands. As long as you can find the one who fits what you want to hear, everyone else must be wrong.

https://newsone.com/3848636/candace-owens-receipts-con-artist/

Why is that? Blacks can't have their own thoughts or opinions? You can't be black and conservative? Newsone seems like a reputable rag! Haha

Dodged the point & put words in my mouth. Why do conservatives dismiss every black person’s experience with systemic racism...but shove Candace Owens in your face with “HERE! HERES ONE! ONE WHO DOENSN’T AGREE!!! SHE SPEAKS FOR ALL BLACK PEOPLE NOW!!!! YOU’RE A RACIST IF YOU DON’T AGREE WITH HER!!!”

She’s a con...not sure about the “servative” part.

I'll say it again... using words in their literal definition does not define the acceptable use of word. That's why people can't even use the n-word even if simply quoting someone else. Why labeling someone by their skin color is seen as prejudice.... or labeling someone gay, even if they practice that orientation is problematic, etc.

Simply saying "well that's what it means" has been torn apart for a decade by people as they advocate for removing the usage of words through our vocabulary. That logic is not exclusive for those who feel they are the minority.

Targeting demographics in marketing is not racism. It's called marketing. A company marketing products to who it believe will buy them is not out on a mission to create social justice - It's trying to sell units.

In 1985 any girl in my neighborhood could have come and played with my Coleco Adam and Mac... know what... none of them wanted to. Call it conditioning if you want... but those girls were not being excluded. You can argue they were being raised in ways that shaped their priorities and interests.. discouraging participation, but much of that is coming from society and home life - not commercial marketing. Nor is it Tandy's job to correct parents and tell them they shouldn't steer their daughter away from something.

In my school, my computer science/programming classes were dominated by white boys. No girl, nor person of color was excluded from that class. The class's population diversity did not match the school's population diversity AT ALL. And why not? It wasn't because they couldn't... It was they made a choice (influenced, shaped, or on their own) to not enroll in the class. The same can be said of the higher math classes (tho there, the female ratio was higher). These are all 'geek' topics of the era where it was a perfectly level playing field when it comes to opportunity to participate.

Hell even by the 90s... an email address was NEVER part of a social discussion in casual contact with females (unless they brought it up) because it conveyed a stereotype of being some computer nerd... something THEY (typically) looked down upon.

It's so flawed when people use social standards of today to try to judge actions of another period. Today's world didn't apply then.

More diversity in pinball = more customers for pinball machines, which in turn = healthier & longer lasting pinball industry......why is this a bad thing?

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Stern has made a pinball machine for pretty much every Marvel movie license except Black Panther or Captain Marvel. They probably believe they would not sell well with the pinball player demographic.

Sad, but probably true.

As a Latino/Greek person myself, it is kind of a weird feeling going somewhere where pinball is played (or an event) and being one of the only (if not the only) non-white person. It really does make it a bit lonelier to be a pinball hobbyist, as family members and other brown friends don't seem to get it/been exposed to it. I do have a few white friends who play, but mostly end up playing at home by myself.

Also, I know that we're talking about race/gender, but there is also a generational gap in pinball. I'm a GenXer, but the hobby is really dominated by the Boomer generation. I do see some more of the younger people getting into the hobby, so that is very encouraging for the future of the hobby.

If you find the universal product that applies equally to all... youd be the richest person in the universe.

Reality is resources are finite and interests are diverse. So you have to target interests and while you seek overlaps there are tradeoffs. You have to make choices...

I’ve been thinking about it all day. I spoke like an idiot. Sorry folks.

Join the crowd. Even us white guys do the same.

This is awfully big of you, @mistermoberg and wanted to recognize it publicly. Thank you for coming back and posting as much.

If you're willing, I'd be curious what brought about your change of heart.

So, are the Marvel films featuring The Punisher, Daredevil, Ghost Rider, The Fantastic Four, and Dr. Strange (to name a few) Super Duper Ultra Mega Secret LE games that Stern made for people who sent in videos of why they deserve one?

I’d share, but it really isn’t about me anymore. Peace.

Hi @mistermoberg ,

I appreciate your humility in not wanting to make this about you. There's certainly a different dynamic when it's in a public forum, too (I'd be happy to chat privately if you're interested), but I'm genuinely interested in the turn-about you've experienced.

Just as an example, I used to think that women's leagues were unnecessary, thinking, "Isn't that just a type of segregation?" But then I think it might have been Josh Sharpe who said something to the effect of, "Let's just ask women their opinion," which was a brilliantly simple solution that, regrettably, I'd overlooked. After listening to a lot of women's accounts and hearing about how women's events and Belles and Chimes chapters felt a lot more comfortable, it started to make a lot of sense to me. I guess I'm just curious if you had some similar thoughts, or if perhaps there was some different considerations taking place. Again, I'm not above learning, either. I'm trying to learn from you this time.

Regardless, if a public or private post is outside your comfort zone right now, no biggie. I (and others who have made themselves visible on this thread) will be here if you ever feel like reaching out.

Finally, to address your concern about this not being about you, I kinda think this is about all of us. So, in that way, it's about you, too. This can't work without everyone (or at least a majority) buying in. So, perhaps your thoughts could help us move that needle.

Thanks, again, for giving all this some consideration,
Ryan

Women do have it hard when it comes to male-dominated activities. I am a member of a college sports forum and we have members there who are women and won't tell you about it for years. Some of them have said that it is easier that way, as their opinions get dismissed right away the moment other posters find out they are women. It is a shame, as some of them have way better insight/knowledge than some of the other posters who think they are sports know-it-alls. I've even discussed it with some of the ones who are not afraid to identify as women and they will outright tell you they sometimes keep their opinion to themselves on some threads because they know how they will be received. That's pretty sad.

There was a Twitter thread from a few years ago that recounted the story of a man and woman who worked together who accidentally got their email signatures crossed up in a shared inbox. The man was signing his emails as Nicole without realizing. Until he noticed how differently he was being treated and dismissed:

https://twitter.com/i/events/839950218099576832

Story ends with:

Here's the real fucked-up thing: For me, this was shocking. For her, she was USED to it. She just figured it was part of her job.

This is the reoccurring thread throughout this conversation. You don't know what you don't know. People are being offended because the privilege word is being tossed about, and being too defensive to listen, but the reality is people want to assume the world treats others the way they're treated, and it's hard for it to even occur to them that it's otherwise.

My view on people is it doesn't make you a bad person to not know something, but when you've got a chance to learn and be smarter and you willfully choose not to? Those people tend to be assholes.

I think he is trying to tell you nicely that it's none of your business. Leave the guy alone and stop trying to bait him into your trap. Your liberal tactics are disgusting.

Aaand just to avoid ending on that note...Ha-ha!...I thought I'd thank everyone here who participated in this discussion. I think it's healthy to keep these types of discussions open and ongoing. Without them, progress is (more) difficult. So, for that, thanks to robin and the mods for keeping this thread open. Also, cait001 , thanks for starting it in the first place, as well as staying active and level-headed. You're a saint. If anyone feels like reaching out to discuss any of this, you're welcome to PM me.

Before this thread withers away, I'd like to make a sincere query to robin to see what you think about cait001 's idea about polling the Belles and Chimes chapters to...

This is a sincere question about an actionable item for making Pinside a more welcoming place for ALL pinheads.

This is disheartening. What specific action can event organizers and spaces take to fix it? Is it a couple bad apples or a societal sea change needed?

I just want to say that you sharing where your change of heart comes from might reach other people who might have a change of heart if they see how it happened to you. Either way, I want to say I eyerolled in your post and then deeply appreciated you coming back and owning that perhaps you spoke a bit too harshly or outside of your values.

We also talk to each other when someone is awful and decide collectively how to support each other or whether to challenge it. What I've seen from having a local tight-knit group of women through a women's league is that we go to the mainstream events way more often because we know we have some recourse from the inevitable things that make us uncomfortable that we might not even bother to say outloud without each other.

I listened to the podcast. I must say the only person made much sense was Bowden. I can see how the only black dude was feeling out of place. Here is what don’t get is how the podcaster can go after zach? He is trying to grow the hobby and has. He will try and sell you machine but that’s what he does. The rest is political bullshit!

Are you sure we listened to the same one?