No. Why do you insist on bringing White Supremacy into a rational discussion??? Racist can and have changed their beliefs through education and dialog so yes you should engage them. There are posts within this thread that confess to having changed their beliefs so yes it's worth the effort (not meaning anyone in this thread is racist rather just highlighting change is possible).

Of course I do, especially if something is blatantly wrong and unfair. Not sure I see anything that is that unfair though towards anyone in today's world. Nothing really stands out to me at least.

Isn't this a thread about diversity in pinball though rather than the worlds race and equality problems which SHOULD NOT be allowed to be discussed on Pinside?

Who-Dey is correct I'm out guys but if you want to continue discussion feel free to pm me.

Well if you watch that video on the previous page, it explains very clearly how policy has created an unfair playing field for black kids in the US. I just watched it and learnt a bunch of stuff I didn't know about US history.
It's always good to be informed. I'll have to do a bit of research and see if I can find something similar about how indigenous people have been disadvantaged in my own country, I'm sure it's even worse.

Since Apparently most Americans can’t understand or learn about history Unless there’s a statue educating them about something, it seems like a pretty good solution; erect statues for African Americans who were either victimized by or helped combat racism.

Do this in every American city and town, just like how there are monuments to confederate generals in every southern city and town. Then maybe we’ll get somewhere.

Even in NYC this needs to happen. There are a tiny handful of statues in this town - among hundreds - representing anybody besides a white male.

Even Balto has a statue in New York.

Ha! Never heard of him before. I guess statues really are effective educational tools!

Good boy!

FC327CBB-772E-42E2-80A0-4EC466CE7A4D (resized).jpeg

When you say we should listen to "all" I am taking you at your word. And yes, it's always worth the effort to talk people away from those beliefs.

So did you watch the cop kneeling on Floyd's neck til he died? That didn't stand out as a bit unfair?

Yes I saw it and I am outraged by it just like every other American is black, white, brown, whatever.

I know this was so thirty-something posts ago, but I just watched this video ( thanks cait001 ) and, much like solarvalue , I learned some things, too. Essentially it answers questions such as:

While the video is about topics of race in the states, rather than discrimination against the LGBTQ community in Canada, I have a feeling you'll be able to draw some parallels, and perhaps better understand some more viewpoints in this thread.

Except it isn't.

It's a statement of (perception and) emotion.

And why were you outraged?

Because nobody should be treated like that. Duh

Do you also understand that this kind of thing happens statistically more with black people? That there is definitely a bias against them?

To bring it back to pinball, let's take that same person that has been discriminated against their whole life, be it black, LGBTQ, etc... They think pinball is cool but all they see are middle age white guys that have typically been their oppressors.

Would you feel welcome? Would you even give it a chance?

Wouldn't it be nicer if those middle aged white guys stood up and said "You're welcome any time, and don't be afraid, we value you and your presence here."

To play Devil's advocate, let's pretend that you feel like you are already welcoming and that doesn't need to be said. What's the harm in saying it anyway? You might come off as a nicer person?

Do you realize that statistics do not support your claims at all? In fact, they fly in the face of said claim.

Do you also recognize that not a single thing about the Floyd Case indicates that there was ANY racial motivation / component to his murder?

No Hate Crime charged. No indication of Racial Animus in the 8 minute video.

Is the Cop a Murderer in that case? Absolutely.

Did Race play a factor? That has yet to be alleged by the prosecution or proven in a court of law.

Could you show me some?

Here is the report done in North Charleston that showed racial bias in our police department: https://www.charleston-sc.gov/DocumentCenter/View/25213/CNA-CPD-Final-Report---11719

This strays away a little from the purpose of the thread, so if we need to go to PM we can.

FBI has all the stats you could ever want on the subject. Several entities have broken down and parsed the data further, but the numbers don't comport to your assertion,

Do I have the links handy for you? No.

Are there departments that have this problem around the country? Sure. But they would be anecdotal when talking about Race and Policing in America. Overall (National) statistics do not support the claims you have made.

Not saying that it should be ignored or that it should be tolerated where and when it happens. It. Should. NOT.

... just that its frequency does not rise near to the levels that many like to claim.

It is abhorent when the authorities abuse power and it should be punished severely and swiftly.

Should be easy for you to find then. Back up your assertions with some data.

And while you’re at it, factor in the disparity in stops made. You’re much more like to be stopped if your black. So even if the deaths/police encounter ratio were the same across racial groups, which I’m not so sure it is, your odds of being on the receiving end are much higher if you’re black because you’re more likely to be stopped more times over the course of your lifetime. And this holds across socio-economic groups, so don’t tell me it’s just that the police like to stop poor people and black people happen to be poor at a higher rate (though that’s clearly a factor too).

The rate of police searches where nothing is found are much higher if you’re black as well. Meaning that the police are still searching white people, but more selectively because they tend to find illegal shit when they do. I don’t know if this is racial harassment, or a race-based assumption that white people are more likely to complain about an unnecessary search (or more likely to be listened to if they complain), but pretty damning stuff either way.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-statistics-dont-capture-the-full-extent-of-the-systemic-bias-in-policing/

Again these Statistics are published and there for you to look at, objectively.

As for your assertion re. frequency of stops, you need to look further than mere #'s of interactions.

Based on published Federal Crime Statistics, there is a valid reason why Policing is more intense in certain Zip Codes :

These are where the Majority of Violent Crimes occur and where the Majority of calls for Police action/response are coming from. It is not nearly as cut and dry as simple numbers of stops and the respective race of the citizen / suspect stopped.

As for the assertions that one race is more likely to be on the receiving end of violent confrontation with Police, the numbers do not back this up. In fact, when you examine the numbers you will be surprised at the disparities occuring along racial lines. They are not what you think they are.

I have never, not once in my life, been stopped just waking down the sidewalk for “looking suspicious.”

That’s a “privilege” poor Elijah McClain was not afforded. So now this 130 pound black kid - who used to play violin concerts for animals at the pound - is dead. He was only 23, half as old as me. I’ve managed to managed to make it to 45 without this happening to me. I wonder why.

I really don’t understand how people can ignore this problem when it’s so ridiculously obvious. Nobody should be killed for the crime of walking home. Nobody should be accused of “suspicious activity” and executed in public like this for the crime of picking up some Doritos.

https://www.vox.com/2020/6/27/21304910/elijah-mcclain-george-floyd-black-lives-matter-protest-killing

It really does seem like we just need to blow up law enforcement in this country and start over. The cops - killing black kids people with abandon, barreling over harmless 75-year old protesters and cracking their skulls - They just seem like an army of poorly trained, militarized, violent goons.

The kindly Andy Griffith archetype has given way to an ugly, gestapo-like thug who has no understanding of use of force, when it should be used, and who it should be applied to. And it’s playing out on TV every night now, both fresh abuses and obscene crimes of the recent past that had been swept under the rug and are now getting a fresh look.

It seems plain as day to me. I can’t imagine how anybody wouldn’t be demanding change at this point.

And no that’s not a discussion we need to have at pinball events, but it’s one we are having here.

I still would love some examples, because I've googled a lot this morning and can't find any. I did however find a bunch of reports that support racial bias in policing.

Here is a report from the United States Commission on Civil Rights, an entity formed by Congress (https://www.usccr.gov/pubs/2018/11-15-Police-Force.pdf) which states:

"The best available evidence reflects high rates of uses of force nationally, with increased likelihood of police use of force against people of color, people with disabilities, LGBT people, people with mental health concerns, people with low incomes, and those at the intersection of these communities. "

I also found several analyses of the FBI use of force data, and they all found racial disparity:

https://www.vox.com/identities/2016/8/13/17938186/police-shootings-killings-racism-racial-disparities

https://abc7.com/black-arrests-southern-california-racial-disparity-population/6243356/

In fact, in 2015 the director of the FBI gave a speech on "Hard Truths: Law Enforcement and Race". It doesn't call out specific statistics but acknowledges the problem.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/speeches/hard-truths-law-enforcement-and-race

Serious question, is there any data I can show you that would change your mind?

Well, Logic is lost on you Levi.

Your argument has no factual basis, merely anecdotal assertion.

And your arguments tend to ignore 100% of the rules we use to judge the validity of argumentation.

For those who wanted some grounding, here is a guy breaking down the stats for you:

The Data Set is the same. The problem arises in how you choose to examine the data. If you do a straight comparison of the Data ONLY relating to population, you can get those results you talk about. However, that is not the picture we are trying to flesh out : We need to look at criminality as a percentage of population and make the same comparisons. The results are not in doubt when we examine this accurately.

See the above video. That dude breaks it down quite effectively, though I would also refer to the supporting data.

My favorite part of that video? Where he shows that black people are arrested more often than whites:

pasted_image (resized).png

But then goes on to ask if black people who report black crime are racist?

Because they commit more crimes, more violent crimes and also an argument can be made that they resist arrest at nearly twice the rates as other racial groups (though that Data Set is insufficient and the assertion more difficult to prove, in my opinion).

Lol. Another YouTube link racist.

I ain’t clicking on that garbage.

I honestly don't even know what to say to that. That statement is inherently racist.

Correct.

Did you just assert that I am a racist, Levi?

Because if you did, we can have the rest of this discussion in person.

The FBI Crime statistics are Racist?

Gotcha. Now, let's ask that same question you just asked me :

Is there anything that would change your opinion on this subject, or are you merely in this discussion to signal your virtuous nature?

But if you did, would you resist arrest or try to grab the cop's gun or taser, causing a threat to the cop's life? I'm not saying that's the case with this kid, but always seems to be the narrative, cop tries to arrest you and you run and get involved with an altercation. Doesn't end well for you if the cop feels his life is threatened.

It’s always the narrative because that’s always what the cops say. You know, like how that 75-year old “tripped” and cracked his skull open. Oh it was all on camera? Oops.

It’s pretty clear at this point we can’t believe anything the cops say.

And two giant cops restraining a 130 pound scrawny black kid felt that “their lives were in danger?”

Gimme a break. The cops are out of control. It seems that whenever they interact with black people they suddenly feel their lives are in danger.

Law enforcement in the US is a hot mess and needs to be completely rethought.

It's pretty clear, to any who are honest inerlocutors, that you are the textbook definition of a Useful Idiot.

Hold on I’ll find some random YouTube links to post I’m sure that’ll change your mind.

Levi, you didn't answer my question! I admit the cop was wrong in the Floyd killing, but don't try to deflect and answer my question.

You completely miss the point.

I wouldn’t. There’s no if.

I’ve gone well over half my life without getting stopped and harassed for no reason by the cops, and I’ll probably make it all the way to the finish line without a potentially deadly interaction like that happening to me for absolutely zero reason.

Some people are not lucky enough to have that “privilege.” Talk about deflection- you are deflecting and refusing to acknowledge this reality.

Since you refused to even watch the video (and then go and compare its assertions to the Federal Crime Data Provided to check its assertions) that your opinion is without merit.

Be honest. Nothing can change your perspective on this. You have an unsubstantiated opinion based on anecdotal nonsense an you refuse to examine the root of this issue dispassionately.

I’ll be honest.

Nothing can change my perspective on this.

Not even random racist YouTube links.

Which makes ALL of your arguments dishonest and ill informed. Like pretty much anything you post that is not Pinball related.

You don’t seem to be any more open minded about this than I am. It’s dishonest to call me dishonest when your mind is also clearly made up.

I appreciate you giving me some credit on my pinball-related opinions though. I mean that’s why we are all here right?

I am always open to new data, but that video is racist and incorrectly aligns different sets of statistics. I can find videos that say the earth is flat, but those are not correct either.

I watched your video, did you read all the reports I posted?

EDIT: I also feel like maybe I'm being baited into some kind of trap to draw away from the real subject of this thread, which is diversity in pinball. I will respond via PM about the racial bias in policing if anyone wants to chat about it with me.

Respecfully, this is a rationalization based on how you feel like using the term. Dictionary definitions are themselves based on *usage* in common culture. Example: Merriam-Webster's definition of "literally" being changed to represent the ironic/figurative usage we've started to see commonly.

Just to answer a couple of your questions, there are more white people killed by the police every year than blacks. That is an absolute fact. Go ahead and downvote me for telling the truth.

Also as far as pinball goes, I DO play pinball with black people and women. They have even been inside my home to play so why the fuck are you preaching to me about this shit for?

As far as gay people go I'm not sure if I've had any of them or not in my home, I would guess that I probably have but I didnt ask them. Maybe I should start asking men and women if they are gay when they come over you think?

Also nobody has to stand up and tell the black people and women "hey you guys are welcome to play pinball with us anytime you like" because they already know that they're welcome, they aren't f*cking stupid or anything. I think they understand that by people shaking their hands and talking to them and stuff and I guess the fact that they come back again and again proves that they feel welcome by us angry old white guys.

Edit: I forgot that I can confirm that I've had gay people in my home and even been to their home and out to eat etc with them. My old work partner of 36 years is gay. He never told me but I know for a fact that he is. We are great friends and always will be, kinda hard not to be with someone you spend 36 years of your life with. I'm sure there have been other gay people in my home too but I'm not going to do a gay check on all of my visitors because I could care less if they are gay or not honestly just like I could care less if someone is black or not. I think its actually YOU that has the problem Wolfmarsh.

Sadly, it's been documented numerous times that the police being "in danger" turns out to be a lie. One example: the shooting of Walter Scott. The officer stated that he thought his life was in danger, which was unable to be backed up by a body camera. He felt his life was in danger at the time Walter Scott was running *away*. The officer felt this man running away from him was so threatening that he shot him. In the back. 8 times. And thought he'd get away with it. And he would have, had a bystanding hiding nearby not caught the whole thing on camera. The scumbag officer lied in his police report. Luckily he was charged with murder. THAT is out of control. And it's one of many, many, MANY examples.

This is a fact, and true. But it requires some context.

There are WAY more white people in the US than black people. So it makes logical sense that more people would potentially be killed. When you look at the actual percentage of people however, black people are disproportionally more likely to be killed - almost * 3 TIMES * more likely.

This means, if there were exactly the same number of white people as black people in the US, and 100 white people were killed, * THREE hundred * black people would be killed.

Here's an NIH study which specifically looked at this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

So is that privilege? I don't know. But it definitely means way more people are being killed per capita.

More white people but which group commits the most crimes? None of this matters and I really dont care so I'm not going to get into the race thing with anyone. This is a thread about why blacks, women, and gays dont play pinball and the answer is, because they dont f*cking want to. It's not because they arent welcome to.