Then you would be wrong my friend.

It would be interesting if there were comparisons to 'similar hobbies' and then saying pinball is lagging in some way.. and identifying what is holding people back.

But as you say, for the large part, it doesn't seem to be about people being held back/out... but simply lack of interest/cross-over.

When Stern Jurassic Park is sitting at the bar not being played... by a room full of women sitting around chatting... is that a problem of diversity in pinball? Or a lack of APPEAL to different demographics?

I have a basement full of pinball machines... my wife doesn't even look at them. Should I be adapting my collection to make it more attractive to her, and measure my success by how much she gets involved in pinball?

The advocates focus so much on removing what they see as barriers... and this in turn has the collateral damage of labeling alot of stuff as problematic instead of acknowledging what is likely much greater gaps.

We've been running organized pinball events for over 25 years... women were part of our gatherings from the very start. Some people of color were as well... and know why? Because they had an interest in what we were doing.... not because someone went out to try to recruit them or make our gatherings more welcome to that demographic. It was simply about Pinball and hanging out. Now... 25 years later... women still are not equally represented in pinball compared to the general population or random other hobby. Is that a failure on us for not making pinball more attractive to women?

There are a ton more women in pinball now than there was 25 years ago... but there is also a lot more women in geek culture... and neither of those things happened by our group changing pinball. We just were open and inclusive as we've always been.

Literally (and I use that term literally) what it means. Just because one doesn't realize it, does not make it untrue. Example: Your SO asks you something. You respond, but he/she doesn't hear. Then they get mad that you didn't respond. But you DID respond! They just didn't hear you! (anyone else ever have this fight?)

So did you respond or no?

I’ll admit i called you unpatriotic when you suggested repealing the first amendment to arrest journalists you don’t like but I didn’t think that was so outrageous to say.

It’s ok, you got back at me by wasting the marines’ time and money. They guy who called me sounded pretty
Pissed off when I told him was 45 and I didn’t think I’d make such a great recruit

For me, I just wish people wouldn’t be so defensive. “Diversity” isn’t trying to take anything from you, or persecute you, or affect your lives at all. At the bare minimum, all you have to do is nothing and allow people to be more comfortable around you. What’s easier than doing nothing?

Calling someone "Black" has exactly the same roots in truth and factual meaning... yet, it's use is construed to meaning much more than the literal definition of skin pigments/appearances.

The part you gloss over is it's not what YOU feel about the term... it's about the other party's reception of how the term has been used and what it carries with it. The 'factuality' of a word does not define its valid use and acceptance.

Good example of labeling with your above inference, you just threw me right in with the lot didn't you all because I said they never got their say, they were excluded which is the very suppression you speak of, it's your 1st amendment right.

I'm only saying stop and listen before you start labeling people.

Levi I honestly harbor no ill will towards you or anyone else and I will admit I did get a little to upset over your comment and for that I apologize it just kinda hit me where I can't scratch so to speak. I don't agree with all you believe and I know you feel the same but it doesn't make either of us bad people in any way. I felt and still feel that the publishing of materials that are outright lies or that are intended to bring harm to another should not be tolerated from our media outlets bar none so please don't reference Fox lol.

Thank you for your service. I can't imagine how difficult that must have been and continues to be for you. Thank you.

This is outside the purview of diversity in pinball, but I'd like to pose an alternate view.

I live in the former capitol of the confederacy, and I hear this suggestion quite a lot. I know of no one (truly) on the "take the statues down" side that wants to sweep the history under the rug.

When I moved here (in high school), I saw these statues every day. They are right in a very prominent part of my city and I had to walk by them every day to get to classes. They were a huge inconvenience to me because people drive very poorly around the statues. Until recently, Richmond didn't have true traffic circles.

As I started making more and more Black friends, the topic would come up. Upon listening to them, I realized that the statues, while a minor inconvenience to me, represented something far worse to them. It was a daily, hourly, -constant- reminder of subjugation. The statues exist in a very affluent part of the city and were made during a time and for a purpose (it's written into the documents enshrining the street to the city) to keep POC out -specifically.

In my personal opinion, moving the statues or adding historical context is better. We have a museum of the confederacy already and there are many institutions which have their roots in the CSA. I say add them to the museum if they are important to maintain. If not, let them go.

I can also tell you for a super fact that the history of the Confederacy (with a very different spin than you might expect up north) will continue to be taught in RVA for a long time to come. Years and years of history courses on it once I moved here. In previous locations, I had a semester or maybe two. I don't think we're in any danger of losing the history by losing the statues, and I feel that we have a lot to gain as a city by moving them or, if needed, removing them.

That is my personal opinion on the matter, and I know you have your own. My eyes were completely closed to this until I started making friends here, of a different background than my own, and I wouldn't have cared about the statues at all otherwise, other than as a minor nuisance. They are such an omnipresent thing in Richmond. This kind of listening and diversity is what will help us all to understand each other and prevent passive (or active) harm.

Thank you for engaging in a respectful way (I just saw your above post).

And that right there is why such platforms will always face resistance and caught conflict.

You literally label people as part of the problem w/o --ANY-- insight or background or knowledge of the person. Your mindset is synonymous with "if you are not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" ... but the label stereotypes based on race without any ties to the individual at all. It's as racist as terms disparaging the other way.

People just don't want their own standards applied both ways.

How accurate a word is literally does not define its acceptable usage in society or bar people from feeling something when the words are used.

Words become 'harmful' based on their USE - not a change in literal definition.

I’m down baby!

It’s one big happy hobby. Would be great really if that could happen.

Bet I haven't gotten one because I've already put the people who'd be cowardly enough to do that on ignore.

This is what we're up against though, let's be really clear. We can have a side conversation about white privilege and what it means. Some of it can really subtle. Here's an example people maybe don't think about: If you're white and you go to the movies you're guaranteed to have plenty of films with white leads, you're well represented on the screen.

When robotron goes to the movies how many does he get to pick from with Puerto Rican leads? He sees them every day on the streets of New York, not much on the movie posters outside the theater.

Hollywood is getting better that way, slowly. Because people have pushed and spoken up about wanting better diversity. And maybe it doesn't sound like a big deal, but if you're used to it you probably don't even stop to think about it. Everyone wants to feel like they belong. It doesn't mean we have to "force it down anyone's throat", but how about some chances for more people? Anyone remember the Prince of Persia movie, about an Arabic hero, starring ... Jake Gyllenhaal? Come on now.

That's just one example in a sea of things that add up over time. It's a side topic to be honest, even if interesting in its own way. And it's not really what this debate is about.

What it's about is what should have been a simple, friendly conversation about how to welcome more people into the hobby has threats being sent. Think about that. There's some hate in some hearts here. That means that we have work to do, and a distance to go still.

I'm not trying to make anyone feel crappy, or guilty. Just want to know, are you standing with the people who want to welcome more, and grow the hobby, or the people who send threatening messages because they're scared of the idea?

I know where I stand.

Dude, you are gonna LOVE books.

That I would also support. I get that history is not equally kind to all of us but we can ill afford to turn our back to it like it never happened. This will probably get me in trouble but it would be the same with Martin Luther King's history, how can we possibly understand what he faced and endured during his struggle if we don't place plaques statues etc. to keep it alive. The old saying use it or lose it used in reference to math is true, we as beings tend to forget if we don't have a stimulus on daily basis and I believe that's true for society as a whole.
I appreciate your acknowledgement of my service but I made peace with it long ago and really wouldn't have changed how any of it played out, it was the first time I realized truths exist on both sides of the track, nothing is black and white.

Books are not enough, when's the last time you read a book?

Hi flynnibus

Thanks for being a part of our conversation. I know this thread is ballooning pretty quickly, so in case you missed it...

I include myself in this statement you take issue with. So, I do have some insight and background knowledge about myself. Ha-ha! But when you say...

...it feels like you're being dismissive of the white male role throughout history and the years and decades and centuries of systematic oppression of non-white males.

I know that statement you take issue with is difficult to hear. It was difficult for me to hear. It's still difficult for me to fully own. But I'm trying.

Let's think about how we can be more welcoming.

yancy RWH

Please please please, let's drop this one and keep this a...

begging.gif

Here's perhaps a different and better example, regarding MLK, since you bring him up.

In Richmond, when I moved here, Martin Luther King, Jr. day was named, "Lee, Jackson, King" day. The same day was proclaimed a state holiday for confederate heroes (and also that MLK guy). Over time the justifications for this holiday waned. We still know about Lee and Jackson and their role in the civil war, but we don't need a state holiday to enshrine them - on the same day as the day we celebrate the achievements of MLK.

That one is much more blatant than the statues.

My point with the schools teaching about it is to point out that the history won't be lost without the statues. It'll still be taught here in the schools for a long, long time, if not for as long as VA exists. If you don't have statues and don't read about it in the history books or watch the documentaries, then there is the museum of the confederacy, Tredaegar ironworks, battlefields, historical markers and plenty of other things that I can't remember right this moment.

I still wish that it turned out differently for you. I'm sorry. Also, nothing is 100% black and white, that is true. For every opinion, there is an alternate one. Listening to each other and empathizing is how we all grow. Thank you for your response.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed the "if" in my statement. I'll repeat myself for clarity: IF you agree with blatantly racist posts, you are racist. What other conclusion can be made?

The first amendment does not apply to a private forum. The post was deleted because it was so far outside accepted norms it disgusted the people who own the site, and they got rid of it. Just as you have the right to toss someone off your property if they're saying things you dislike.

I understand your point about monuments and American history, and I don't think you're actually racist. I don't think you understand just how much those statues hurt other people, otherwise I think you'd agree they need to go. Can you imagine going to town square and seeing a statue honoring a person who enslaved and killed your family members?

I'm with ya Ryan.

so i am gonna make a pledge here because of this topic. i promise that the next pinball event i will leave the status quo pinball shirtat home and dress up in a puerto rican flag shirt and a straw hat. i will do this so the white privilege folks here will feel better about themselves and see a little more diversity at the pinball events. we can talk about the days when i was a poor kid and cut sugarcane with a machete for 50 cents a day at the age of 8 and you were in the boy scouts camping.

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I'm speaking directly to the topic of language used and the conflict it causes. I have no idea how you connect that to talking about centuries of systematic oppression. I'm talking 2020... about language, it's use, and how society has behaved when it comes to addressing and accepting what people find offensive.

The standard has been set that it's not the literal meaning of a word... but how those words impact the listener and what those words invoke in them. That definition works both ways... not simply for sides that should be shielded or need protection because of some history.

If people want to use those standards to protect those they FEEL need protecting, they need to respect all listeners, not just their 'side'.

I don't have the google that one, I'll tell everyone who's too lazy to look it up. Most of them were put up by the United Daughters of the Confederacy in the 1900s. They're not really 'history', they're propaganda pieces. Want to know who else the UDC put up a monument to? The KKK. You can google that one.

Can't say it's about history if you don't actually know the history.

And you're doing it right there... with talking down to people suggesting they need 'handholding' as if they are some baby or something.

The knife cuts both ways... if you want to dismiss people's responses to labels you use.. you can't cry foul when someone does the same to your response to words used. If you want people to respect how words impact you - you need to respect how words impact others.

Not simply say its your problem to make up your own words.. and not see the problem with yours.

well pardon me for not patting on your back for your journey...?

That's true but the concept still remains, all are entitled to their opinion whether you or I agree and that is not to say we have to listen but I can assure you if all are not heard there can be no progress.

Hey RWH ,

I just wanted to send a quick note of public thanks for your participation in this thread. We may not share the same opinions, but you've remained pretty measured in your posts. I appreciate that, and your involvement here. I'd also like to echo bingopodcast 's sentiments of gratitude for your service to our country.

Sincerely,
Ryan

No use in fighting for justice because the people who dont agree with you aren't going to listen to what you have to say. That's just life and it happens to all of us so stop crying about it.

Noted for the next time you bring up concerns... the standard to recommend to the other person is just to re-route around you vs have a real conversation about it.

History has shown that after the statues the books come next.

There are no statues of nazis in Germany, yet they all know about what happened there. The books still tell you.

How is that possible?!

As long as you don’t plan on bringing any statues - or arguing About them - at pinball events, it shouldn’t be a problem.

I think that’s part of being welcoming. Sometimes you might have to bite your tongue now and then on an opinion or even a response. I’ve done it for sure.

Don’t fight with people. Don’t make them feel like they shouldn’t be comfortable or someone doesn’t want them there, wherever you are playing pinball. If someone is obviously flaming gay, don’t snicker or say anything stupid. If a woman shows up, don’t talk down to her or comment on her bod. It’s really easy.

It’s back to my point - you don’t need to be “an ally.” You don’t have to put a BLM or rainbow flag bumper sticker on the 4X4. The bare minimum, the bar here, is just don’t do anything!

Just be cool! And If you want to do more, the. that’s great too.

Why do you think there is a fight? Gay marriage is legal in Canada isnt it? What else os there to fight for?

The note on top of your monitor

flynnibus we've both been around Pinside for about the same amount of time. I know we've been in the same threads over the years, and we've never had a problem. So when I tell you that you're really sounding like an asshole right now it's not because I'm out to get you or trying to pick a fight. Come on, that's not at all called for. Let's not resort to trying to personally snipe each other like that, it's nasty and not necessary.

That's a bit of hard won wisdom for some people. I know when I was younger I still had to learn it.

See everyone, It's never too late to learn!

I'm sorry I just cant listen to it because I dont agree with it. I am of the belief that we can all be successful if we work hard to achieve it, regardless of color, gender or whatever.

In this country, many times, we can. It's just harder for some than others. The video linked breaks down exactly why that is through historical context. It is worth a watch, even if you disagree.

By "all" are you advocating we listen to white supremacists and racists' opinions? What exactly do you think they'll bring to the table? I'm with Aurich.. some things just aren't debatable.

I'm trying to figure out how he can disagree with something he hasn't watched

Its definitely harder for some people to be successful than others, I wont disagree with that at all. That is never going to change I dont care what you do. I think that applies to most people on this earth but if you want to get out there and get it then you can be successful. Some definitely have to work harder than others and some have advantages because they are smarter, better looking, better educated etc than others. That's never ever going to change.

Well it takes two... and I didn't start it. Sorry I didn't play the woe is me card to try to support my logic and side step things.

Do you think we shouldn't try to make it more equitable for all, if possible/within our power?

If not, why not?

What if education is denied to you because of your appearance?

What if the places where you can live are limited due to your appearance?

Just because the laws were passed regarding equality, it doesn't mean that all obey, otherwise this would be a much easier and simpler conversation.

How would you overcome those obstacles?