levi do you cross the street when you see a black person coming your way?
you and i know many of the same great people in this hobby although we have never met. trust me you are wrong about me and maybe i am wrong about you.

Ha ha here they come, down voting someone on their opinion, you guys are far worse than those you post about

You comment was contrary to their beliefs so your wrong.

The people thrown out were blatantly racist. If you agree with them, there's not much to discuss with you.

Still waiting for them to answer my question.. why does outreach to minorities bother some people so much if, as they claim, they're not racist?

Some may have been but I know some where also bringing up real issues that happen to be contrary to your beliefs so you label them as racist is much more accurate assessment.

Regardless of what I or others would or could say you wouldn't budge, you've made that clear, I know, why don't you drain the topic? That was a real solution suggested earlier should work for all.

Lol, he lives in NYC, if he crossed the street every time he saw a POC he’d have been killed by a taxi already.

Won't budge on what? All I'm asking is why outreach makes you and others so uncomfortable? 4 pages now and no answer...

Again, you’re framing this as “vs.” ...a “both sides” issue. It’s not. My point of view is that racism & sexism is bad. What’s your contrary view? Racism & sexism is good? I’m happy to have a two way discussion with you...but if your premise is that we’re discussing “this vs. that”, I’m not sure what you hope to gain or accomplish....but hey, try me. Sell me on white supremacy & suppression of women, go!

That’s not even remotely what it means. It’s an acknowledgement that we go through life not dealing with or even thinking about daily harassment. It’s actually a notion that you’re humbled by your random lot in life, and that you have empathy for people who’ve had different life experiences.

I'm not uncomfortable what so ever, what aggravates me is when you and others pretend to be open-minded and ask for opinions and when you get them and they're not aligned with yours, you label, racist, boomer, uneducated, privileged old white men, instead of discuss.

I've said it this thread and many others, I'm behind minorities and honestly feel something should and could be done but not by perpetuating the very thing you complain about others doing to you. It's like the culture and heritage argument, minorities and non-minorities have complained their culture and heritage are being stripped away from them and yet those same people begin destroying monuments, burning flags, in an attempt to destroy the history and culture of others. Today's blame culture makes all aspects of life white and black, right or wrong, you're in or your out, you're with me or against me, no middle ground for discussion.

I was raised in the country and have been called a hillbilly, white trash, uneducated, or as one of the confessed "woke" pinsiders on here call us "Southern Ohio village people". I'm proud of my heritage and even more proud that where I was raised when someone needed help, we helped. I never once heard someone say are they White, Black, Chinese they all just stepped up and did what they could for them. Everyone, myself included just needs to think a little before they spout off, not all white people are racist and not all racist are white.

Good example of what I was just saying, I don't see things same as you do so I automatically get labeled. I guess you just skipped over where I mention I support minorities regardless of race or gender, or did you purposely skip that?

Point of order; that IS the purpose of having downvotes

If you support them, then what’s your issue or “other side”? Looks like we’re in this together, but you’re agro for some reason.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure I disagree with most of your politics, but I've always found you to be willing to have an honest conversation. But that's not true of everyone that posts from the more conservative end of the pool on Pinside. And when people get things going with posts like "does anyone listen to this crap?" and spouting off about "diseased libtards" you don't have much of a start for constructive dialog.

Yeah I walk down the middle of the street all day.

It’s getting tough with the slowly increasing traffic but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Can you show an example of me labeling someone like this?

Do you understand those monuments represent the absolute worst of humanity to large swathes of people? Are you personally invested in any of those monuments? Can you understand the pain they inflict on those who must see slavery celebrated every time they see those statues? Why are we memorializing people who were essentially traitors to the US, who broke the Union to promote slavery?

Can you answer those questions and provide good reasons to keep the monuments?

You shouldn't be treated that way. I don't think anyone on pinside has called you any of those names.

Black people are being killed way more often than they should. They need help. They are asking for help right now. Do you want to help?

While the tech industry still has a long way to go, focusing on diversity has been very positive and paid off dividends.

I can only imagine it would have the same great effects on pinball.

I am personally trying my best to be an ally, but admittedly still learning what that means.

I don't believe there are two valid sides to every issue, and that all opinions should be heard and respected.

Some ideas are bad, and don't need a middle ground.

So when someone says pinball is for rich white men and it should stay that way and then they get tossed from the thread I don't need to hear them out. F– that racist nonsense. You're saying we should hear that person out. Hell no.

I've been I think pretty polite in this thread, I'm honestly not looking to tear people down, and I'm trying to share what I find positive about the idea of greater diversity in the hobby. But I'm not going to tolerate that kind of small minded stupidity. Are you really trying to defend that as an idea worth discussing?

"One hand, let's try diversity, on the other hand let's keep things for rich white men, both valid!"

That's why people downvoted your post, because you were advocating for that. The only people who have been "silenced" in this thread have had shitty ideas.

There are many ways in which humans treat one another poorly, race, gender or sexuality are only just a few. Humans discriminate against weight, beauty, height, wealth, power, titles, zip code, sports teams, nationality and any excuse they can find. Don’t mistaken “Hate” with specific attributes. If someone has hate in their heart.......and many humans do.........it will manifest itself some way. Try being a 400lb white woman in this country, now tell me about white privilege. You fools think you can eliminate hate from the world because you are blinded into believing humans are good. Humans are not altruistic, we are animals.

In a thread full of insanely stupid shit; I applaud you for raising the bar!

You are missing the point, the idea of privilege is relative. If you were a stage 4 cancer patient, the entire species would be privileged compared to you. You could argue, we are privileged just to be born in this country. It is a pointless, endless argument.

i call it as i see it. i am the token minority at the pinball gatherings. why are you picking on me?you fat bald sweaty white guys. (tongue-in-cheek)

Do you think it's pointless to try evening the playing field?

there are no easy answers on both sides. for me though some questions should not be asked.

You can always find an individual who's got it rough compared to another. That's not the topic or issue.

We're talking about SYSTEMIC racism/sexism/privilege. It's a thing, it's provable, it's real, it affects people's lives daily....and we can do our part to minimize & eliminate the negative affects of it.

Minimizing the issue by offering irrelevant comparisons. Then saying we can't solve the issue cuz we all suck.

You're representing the absolute laziest stance....and unfortunately, that's dangerous for the people who are negatively affected by this issue.

We must first admit what we are before we can address what we want to be. “Empathy”, the most important word in the English language, the only world that has not been used once in this thread. The ability to feel Empathy is the highest level of intelligence a human can achieve. Zero-Sum game is nonsense, look around, the human species is the true manifestation of the devil. You want to make the world a better place, stop making human babies.

Diversity in pinball is almost non existent in my area and I’m not exactly sure why that is. I would love to dig deeper into the reasons why and pursue ways to make it more inclusive. If a diversity board is actually put together here, I would be more than happy to get involved. Diversity is a great thing!

Oh and all of the other forms of discrimination are not systemic???

Yes it has. That's literally what this whole thread is about.

Too late! My baby rules...sorry.

They could be. Let's talk about them and figure it out instead of trying to null it out out with false equivalency and nihilism.

I have said my peace and I am out! Keep up the great work people, you too Rarehero! Discussion is good, fighting for a good cause can never be bad. Diversity is beautiful.......... always has been and always will be. People who fight for diversity are “awesome” in my book.

Hi again.

Hey Robotron. I'm gonna speak really sincerely here, which I know is seldom favored in a forum post, but here come my thoughts, without irony or snark.

I tried my best to educate in a diplomatic way when I mentioned a few things about Jodester 's posts that were really bothering me. I promise you I am not interested in having Jodester lose his Pinside volunteer position. In fact, let me clear things up right now:

Hey robin , I've been exchanging several private messages with Jodester in the past 24 hours and you know what, I'm actually pretty impressed with the guy. Please don't get rid of him on my account.

Also...

...I'm far from perfect. Thank you, DakotaMike , for bringing some of my own biases to my attention. Sincerely. Admittedly, we ALL have work to do. I promise I'll keep looking in the proverbial mirror during this conversation.

Also, while there are a lot of problematic sentiments in this thread, I'm heartened by statements like...

Yes!

YES!!

yesyesyes.gif

This open-minded, inquisitive, empathetic outlook is exactly the type of attitude I'd like to see, on this thread, in pinball, and in life. None of us are perfect, but a willingness to learn, to be educated, and to be kind, rather than reactionary, is something for us all to strive for. Looks like we've already seen a couple of reasons to keep this thread live. ( Wolfmarsh SNES )

Thanks, robin and mods for not shutting this conversation down.

I'm a fat white dude, and I certainly believe that I've been gifted with privilege over other groups. Sure, I've gotten "discriminated" against because of people's view on being obese, but not even a tiny sliver of a percent near what has been set up against minorities or LGBTQ people. Call me fat, don't give me the promotion because you don't like the way I look, that stuff is like a minor fart of wind compared to having statistically proven bias against your ethnic group. Also being fat is something I can change, that I have control over.

I do agree with you that a lot of people are garbage. That has become super evident over the past decade. We can all try better though, even if it's something as small as thinking about what we say and who it might make pinball less welcoming to.

No, you should stop engaging.

Dang it. Right as I was about to point out...

...that Rarehero beat him to the punch by about 20 posts.

For those struggling to recognize their privilege, take note... these are the first steps. Practice empathy, and become an ally.

Hey, I've been getting some private messages from a few folks and it's come to my attention that there have been threatening PinsideMails being sent to participants in this thread.

I'm really troubled by this. That is the exact opposite of what we're trying to accomplish with this discussion. I don't have much more information than what I mentioned above, so I don't care what your opinion is (if it aligns with mine or not), stop doing that.

We're not going to tolerate harassment.

It was used twice before. And it is always the thing I encourage people to think about when discussing issues of discrimination. @ryanclaytor's post also talks about empathy, without using the word itself.

Empathy is absolutely extremely important and drives a lot of what will allow diversity to thrive.

Well, that's unlikely to happen any time soon, so what can we do to improve the world? Is it wrong to even question the idea of the status quo? There are things which are completely out of our control (birth rates on a global scale) as individuals, and things which are within our control (being truly welcoming of people who differ from others at pinball events and within the hobby).

You're right, some of that is systemic (nationality, weight, beauty), others not (sports teams).

I understand what you are saying, but it's hard to move forward as a species if we can't acknowledge that there are individual efforts that can be made to make the world a more welcoming place. Pinball should be one of the easiest ones on the planet.

I would echo what metallik has said: what's the downside to having more diversity in our rather small hobby?

I make no mistake that I am a paragon of virtue - as Ryan said, I am also learning every day to empathize better with those with different experiences. As Wolfmarsh said, I am learning how to be an ally.

While I am also engaging in these conversations every day with acquaintances, I do my utmost to hear them out. However, I have had people tell me that my stance is 100% political when in fact I don't care at all about the politics of it. Empathy is not a political issue. I care about doing what I perceive as the right thing. And at the end of the day, that's what I hear the most from people - they are trying to do the right thing as they see it. The point is that we do need empathy to see outside of our experiences and understand that someone may be hurt by our ideals of what is the correct thing to do.

When I learn of something like that, I try to change my behavior. I will engage in dialog with others that might not understand. I always, always try to be respectful. In all my conversations, I have not heard anyone (except one) admit that they knew what they were doing was hurtful. Not everyone will respond to that in a way that I'd like, but if the message is received, I hope that a seed will be planted and perhaps in time they will treat others differently than they have in the past.

Your experience is going to be different from mine in some ways, the same in others.

Can we all work together to try to make the world a better place? Let's start with something simple, and in our control (in some regards), like pinball? I'd imagine that most of us agree on that notion. It's really low stakes, small potatoes, but without small, simple changes, the larger and more important changes can't happen.

If you disagree, post away! I would like to know why, legitimately. I am not judging you for your opinion, I merely want to see if we can agree that we can make the world a more welcoming place, and come up with ideas to do so. I think the suggestion for a diversity panel for Pinside is a fantastic idea, and in the podcast, they discuss diversity in the IFPA. A good idea and past its time.

What I said is it's the instant labeling that goes on when you disagree with someone not what someone obviously stated as a closed ended statement with no room for debate. Obviously I can't support that statement you refer to either, I say the more the merrier, better for me, better for you, alas I am also not a rich white man, old and white but broke.

A good example Aurich is how I perceive what is protesting and what is simply committing crimes because the circumstances allow for it. Once I made that known I was immediately labeled, insensitive, ignorant, racist, and just purposely looking the other way which is BS. That's what I'm talking about, don't jump to conclusions before the question has been asked.

Is there a way to upvote something 1,000,000 times?

Part of the problem is the use of the word 'privilege' infers the recipient is somehow spoiled or granted something... and on top of that it tends to become something to ATTACK someone with instead of simply used to point out the differences between situations.

As much as people want to say certain words are offensive to woman or POC because of how the words have been USED... the same thing is evolving with 'white privilege'. People take offense to the label because it's been weaponized to disparage people.

Instead one could simply say people have been 'at a disadvantage' compared to others... that points out specifically what the concern is. And does so without painting those not in that bucket as somehow a problem simply because they aren't in that group. But by labeling and using that term in aggressive, or derogatory ways, people turn people away from their cause... rather than help educate on the problem.

Its use tends to paint those labeled as part of the problem... instead of highlighting the disparity that exists. That's why people get defensive when the term is thrown around.

The exact same arguement could be used to justify words and terminology that is factual (say..the color of someone's skin).. but has evolved to mean MORE than it's factual roots because of how the words have been used, and what they are associated with. What the words MEAN TO THE LISTENER has been at the core of so many arguments to what is offensive or not.

The same applies to labels like these based on how the labels and descriptors are used.

spoiled
adjective
1. harmed in character by being treated too leniently or indulgently.

In comparison to people who have been systematically oppressed, I'd say that word is pretty fitting.

We are part of the problem, moreso if we don't acknowledge that. And there is also a disparity that exists. Both are true, not mutually exclusive.

I see your point but it make doesn't me racist or a bad human being because I want to preserve our countries history? Good or bad it is the story of us the citizens of the United States and records good or bad, the triumphs and failures alike. I don't agree with southern sentiment towards slavery does that mean I should brand all southerners as racist and go on a campaign to wipe out their culture? I served my country and came home to being label and an outcast amongst the very people I gave my sweat, blood and tears for, but I have ZERO interest in sweeping that part of history under the rug. I lean towards the right but that does not mean I agree with everything they do, same with the left, I agree with some of their ideas but not all of them. I feel like the culture today is in it's simplest terms one of "you're with me or against me" I'm given no middle ground.