Amen. Great suggestion.

If the IFPA can form a women's advisory board, why not have a diversity advisory board on Pinside? I cannot speak for robin , but we all know he's gone above and beyond developing the Pinside ecosystem. I've never seen another message board infrastructure as robust, and we're lucky to have him at the helm. With that said, PERHAPS he would be willing to entertain such an advisory board for Pinside?

I can feel the strain of the volunteer group of mods buckling under this suggestion of potential extra work, but stay with me. Perhaps when you...

...MAYBE some of those questions could include something like,

"Would you be willing to serve on a Pinside Diversity Board in and advisement capacity to the website?"

>>>OR EVEN!!!<<<

"Would you consider applying to become a Pinside moderator?"

...and maybe, JUST MAYBE, we could turn the tides here a little in order to make this a more inclusive space. From some of the comments in this thread alone, it's obviously needed.

Sorry if this comes across as insensitive or egotistical, but what does this have to do with pinball? Of course nobody should be actively excluded or feel unwelcome in the hobby, but I don't see the point in trying to raise the number of female/black/gay/whatever pinball players specifically. This does not make the community better. I'm not a fan of forced diversity. So what if this is a hobby that primarily seems to interest white males?

I don’t think OP is asking you to apologize or feel guilty about the misbehavior of other men that play pinball. What would be the point of that? I think she is asking you to call out the misbehavior when you see it and not dismiss it as harmless or turn a blind eye. The idea being that if everyone’s on the same team, regardless of whether the bad behavior affects them directly, then it’s more likely to stop.

Quick FYI, I have disabled post approval mode, I trust everyone can be respectful with their opinions. Be nice. Thanks!

Won’t end until we all look very similar which by some models may take tens of thousands of years

Look to ancient Asian countries which have been breeding for thousands of years. USA is simply too young

Do your part, make a mixed race baby, I’m one, I made 2...they’re beautiful...just water down the white man until we’re one man/woman

Until then looting targets, burning down Wendy’s and burying martyrs in gold caskets ain’t gonna change a damn thing

I don't think there is actual chance for constructive discussions when comments like these come out. I'll drain the thread like the op recommended and welcome diversity like I always have.

I just did.

Well she should be very familiar with the idea of colonization and white privilege then

We're just going to have to disagree. I think the only factor that influences the 'quality' of a community is the personality of the people involved, not their race, sexuality or gender. Ergo, a white male community is neither better nor worse than a purely black female or a mixed one.

Well, the fact that a separate panel seems to be needed to highlight the issue kind of tells me that it's not a development that comes naturally. If it were, nobody would feel inclined to talk about it. It just wouldn't be a topic.
Anyway, don't think pinball is intrinsically white any more than basketball is intrinsically black. It just happens to attract a certain demographic. If women or blacks discover it for themselves, great. If not, who cares.

This is pretty much spot on. People arent scared away from pinball because its dominated by white males. They don't play it because they simply don't want to. Most white males dont want to play pinball either.

I want there to be more men and women both in pinball because I want the hobby to grow. I'm not worried about the diversity of pinball, I'm far more worried about the survival of pinball.

A community is built from people, and their experiences, viewpoints, and backgrounds.

All white men are not the same. But you will definitely get a greater diversity of experience and opinion when you add other people who aren't that. Women have different life experiences than men. One man and one woman could have very similar interests, but if you were to take 100 men and 100 women you'd see a lot of things that don't overlap.

That's the point, it's not about individuals, it's about what happens when you get larger groups together.

A more diverse community has more to share. If all you care about it is being here to talk about playfield dimples every day then yeah, you probably don't care who you're talking to. I'm interested in more than that, because that's tremendously boring. Pinside is more than tech bulletins. Our stories and lives are part of the mix too.

A more diverse community is better. A community that shuts down racists and sexists and assholes is better. I don't think these are particularly difficult concepts.

I care. If you really don't care then you won't have a problem with other people making the efforts to change things.

Agreed. This has nothing to do with diversity, though. The most diverse community can be full of assholes. Also, blacks can be racist and women can be sexist. Again, it comes down to personality, not to race, sexuality or gender.

Your statement leads me to believe you do not understand the meaning of “diversity”

The people here claiming to not be racist, sexist... you sure seem to be making quite the fuss over other peoples' attempts to bring pinball to more people. If you're not racist, why do these actions bother you so much? Funny how only the same few folks seem to have a problem with outreach.

Why do we want keep one group's opinion locked down if this a frank discussion of diversity? People not agreeing with everything should not allow others to label them as racist or sexist.

You will not make inroads with the population you which to enlighten unless a two way dialog exists.

So, what can we do to increase diversity in pinball? As opposed to just discussing its existence, what ideas do people have to make pinball a more welcoming experience?

Posting this from my own personal experience and not as a Pinside moderator.

That is why I asked them, who do other peoples' actions to bring more diverse people into pinball bother them so much?

Because 90% it doesn't add anything to the discussion.

Nobody likes to be labeled.( i.e Privileged White Male) Painting a broad brush on any group can only cause more issues and not help solve an existing problem.

I didn't label anyone. I didn't call anyone a privileged white male. I asked people who are claiming not to be racist or sexist, why they are making such a fuss over other peoples' attempt to defeat racism and sexism.

If that question makes someone uncomfortable, perhaps some introspect is in order.

I do, it’s just an unsustainable concept

Try this at home

Take a glass of water

Now get a food coloring kit and drop in some black, brown, yellow, etc...

Sure you’ll have some diversity at first swirling through the glass, but you will ultimately have a solution of perfect balance and equality...utopia realized!

As far as the sexism part...well I live with 3 women and have been fully emasculated...I’m not sure what I am at this point

I was not responding directly to you but to earlier posts in this thread and broad strokes they were painting.

I think discussion of this subject is great, but by excluding the group you hope to change, how can you accomplish the task?

The law stated that some should be excluded because 90 % do not add to the discussion. What about the 10 % who may have good feedback and ideas on how to deal with the problem?

Exclusion does not equal diversity.

Again, my own opinion, no reflection on Robin or Pinside.

Cait, do you think that the high cost of entry into the hobby may be part of the diversity problem?

I can buy used golf clubs for 100$ from Goodwill and play on a public course cheap.

Pinball requires a much bigger investment and also knowing someone that can service a broken pinball machine. There are no games on route near me, so I had to purchase my first pinball machine and figure out how to keep it going. (Thanks to Pinside)

Could the age of the participants in the hobby also be another issue? I don't see a large number of youth attracted to the hobby.

Plenty of location-only players. Assuming that all the locations aren't closed, of course! A lot of people only play at bars and arcades precisely because they can't afford / don't have the space for a home machine.

True, and you don't need to own a game to play in leagues or tournaments either.

As others have said, location play is available to anyone with a couple bucks. Also, you don't need to be wealthy to buy a fixer-upper pin and use the internet to learn how to fix it yourself. Your assumptions are actually part of the problem.

My assumptions are fact in the area that I live. Operators have all but given up on my area. There is only one pinball machine locally in a movie theater.

Don't think I am part of the problem. I did a leisure learning class with the local university to promote pinball in my area. I invited total strangers into my game room and allowed them to play and discuss the hobby. These folks were then invited to every tournament we had in the area moving forward.

True, but I dont think that has anything to do with diversity.
You kind of went of target there.

That “label” isn’t an insult. Its not painting any group. Its context is in the discussion of society and systemic issues. Once again: Privilege just means there are bad things based on race & gender that happen to other people on a daily basis that never happen to us.

I am a privileged white male. Saying it, hearing others say it, and accepting the concept doesn’t raise my blood pressure. The concept isn’t a personal attack...it’s just the nature of our society & its history. Learn what the term means, and take it into account when discussing issues of society. It only causes more issues if you get stubborn about it and push back against the reality of it.

Some of the posts on Pinside lately have been a little disillusioning to me, and this topic is among the lowest of the low points.

C’mon, everyone - we can do SO much better than to play right into the worst stereotypes about Pinside and its members! Given all the current events unfolding and changing hour to hour, this podcast SHOULD have been universally applauded in these parts!

A few earlier posts in particular (fortunately, the worst was deleted) were downright despicable, almost unbelievable in their breathtaking arrogance, and resulted in total loss of respect on my part (and I am sure many others).

What we have seen recently is mainstream culture finally starting to awaken to the sad reality that the “shining city on the hill” shines a lot more brightly on some than others, and beginning to seriously look deeper into how to begin changing course.

Many organizations/businesses/groups/institutions/INDIVIDUALS have been inspired to take a hard look at getting their own houses in order, and for our community to actively seek to do the same is not only appropriate, but essential to fulfilling the promise of what this hobby SHOULD fundamentally offer, which is to serve as a stimulating diversion (quite important for mental health) that has at least some universal appeal on various levels and therefore can contribute meaningfully to the larger societal effort to tear these barriers down.

I usually steer clear of hot-button topics (though this one should not have been controversial on any level), but I am on the membership roll here and don’t feel it’s appropriate remain silent - silence and excessive meekness is half the reason we are in this mess, and it’s time for everyone to take a stand!

I think it's easier to say that white males have been privileged all throughout history. For many centuries, that privilege was outright coded into law. Repealing the laws hasn't erased it completely, at least not yet.

Imagine life as a video game.. right now, the difficulty settings would broadly reflect:

-Easy- White male
-Medium- Colored male or white female
-Hard- Colored female

Add in bonus difficulty for being disabled, autistic, LGBTQ, atheist, etc.

People for BLM, women's rights, etc. are simply trying to make it one difficulty level for all.

That’s almost exactly how the South Park game starts...the difficulty level slider makes your skin lighter or darker. They get it.

Hi Jodester

Thanks for chiming in on this thread. And thanks for being a mod, too. A thankless job if ever there was one. Volunteer work for not much in return. Impossible to please everyone. So...thank you...for showing up to this party.

If you don't mind, I'd like to take a moment to talk about a couple of things. You asked...

I have a difficult time with this argument when there are really ugly posts popping up saying things like:

...and...

hazoff (resized).png

It's like saying, "If Party A likes to spit in people's faces and Party B doesn't, then who's to say that we should keep Party A from spitting in people's faces?" The answer is not political, but rather common decency. It's also in the Pinside rules that you've volunteered to uphold. "Racism, name-calling, and discrimination..."

https://pinside.com/pinball/help/pinsidecom-community-rules

You also asked:

I'm glad you're asking questions. Sincerely. It's how we all learn. And believe it or not, there are a lot of suggestions being discussed, from top down approaches (manufacturers taking a financial risk on a theme with a primary demographic that is not white-male dominated) to bottom up, such as...

...but we could even focus on our group right here. Pinside. ...and you have some power in that regard, Jodester. You volunteered as a Pinside Moderator, but with that dose of power comes some responsibility. You actually have some power to make a difference here! For starters:

...then listen.

Like, really listen.

And then work to implement changes based on those suggestions.

While we're having an uncomfortable discussion here, there's another thing that came out of your keyboard that I'd like to chat about.

These "labels" you mentioned are merely facts. I don't understand why this is problematic when they are things that just ARE. Are you male? Are you white? If you answered yes to those two then you ARE the third as well. I fall into all of these categories. Based on your posts, I'd wager you are, too.

If I'm right, I have a little challenge for you tonight, to have a think. Like, a real, put-down-the-phone, lay-in-bed, stare-at-the ceiling, think.

When you're laying there, take a moment to think about how seldom you've been scared to walk to your car at night. Think about how rare it is that you fear being groped in a crowd. Think about how you've never thought your life hung in the balance when you've been pulled over. Think about how you probably haven't been afraid to be yourself since maybe high school. These are very real concerns that a lot of folks, that are not like you and me, are faced with daily.

Also-also, on the topic of having a good think...

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume I'm about your least favorite pinsider by this point, but I'm gonna add one more list item to your good think tonight. In the statement above, in a not very veiled way, you're saying that women, people of color and LGBTQ are poor. Not an okay generalization to make. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe those distilled words were not your intentions. But please read your statement again. The assumption is there.

Finally, I'm sure it feels icky to hear things like...

...but when you respond with things like...

...then you are part of the problem.

BUT HERE'S THE GOOD NEWS, and my god, Jodester, I hope you made it this far.

The GOOD NEWS is that you're not a bad person and you're not alone. You know why? Because we're all part of the problem. I am too. I've made plenty of fucked-up and ignorant mistakes in my life and stuck my foot in my mouth in very regrettable ways. But I'm doing my best to be inquisitive (LIKE YOU ARE...ASKING QUESTIONS!) and remain open-minded about our role in why this diversity conversation needs to happen and changes need to be made.

Not trying to start anything, but in total fairness, these days race and gender actually CAN BE labels. Some people don't fit neatly into male or female genders, or transition/confirm to a different gender than they were born to. Also, I know of many people who might only have 25% African ancestry, but who still identify as Black. I also know lots of people who pass for, or appear to be, a different race than they actually. Not everything is cut and dry when it comes to race or gender. So those things ARE labels.

I clicked on this thread expecting it to be either a lame joke about how Backboxes come in different shapes, or a snarky, ironic thread that would be closed in a few minutes.

Instead, I’m pleasantly surprised that it’s actually a genuine discussion. Wow! People talking about what is a very obvious lack of diversity in the community. Why is that? What can be done to change it? Very interesting topic.

Hopefully what comes of this will rescue my lack of faith in the rest of humanity by reading some of the later comments. Good for the OP for standing up to some of this nonsense.

Your wasting your time, been a one way discussion since the thread was opened as is the case with a couple other threads. Seems to be no light beyond the tip of their noses.

Wish all of you who constantly spout this "just listen" could actually practice this yourselves, this whole conversation has been one way, "your way or the highway", no, just ask the many who were silenced through being thrown out of the thread. If you honestly can't see you're doing exactly what you profess is being so wrongly perpetrated upon you then you need to take your blinders off, the conversation going on here is between "you and you" it never has it been about "you and me". And please the ridiculous stance this is not attack on you and if you take it that way you're just "misunderstanding" is simply lame and laughable at best, another perfect example of your unwillingness to hear or consider a view contrary to that of your own.

Guys I believe wholeheartedly and support the plight of minorities regardless of race, ethnicity, or gender but to approach it in the manor which being done (exclusion) is simply repeating the exact same wrong of which you complain. I don't agree so it's easier to shut me out than to, as you say "listen" really listen. I can't count the number of times someone in this thread has said, " these things are hard to talk about and listen too but, need to be said" that would be a great stance from which to debate if you actually approached it that way, how many have been moderated or thrown out of the thread for saying things they feel are "hard to hear, need to be said" where are those voices, who is listening? If this sounds familiar it's because it's how we got where we are now, history really is doomed to repeat itself when we use the same excuses and tactics on others that we so loudly complain is being perpetrated upon ourselves.

Sorry don't mean to rant and I've said my piece, I've no intentions of arguing my point any further, I just think it should not be systematically dismissed as uninformed, ignorant, or a result of privilege and therefore not worth consideration.

I love the statement "if you don't agree with whats being said you can drain the thread" shows how totally open you are to conversation, you talk and we well we can only drain.

As an educated atheist, I would argue diversity is a bunch of made up BS found only in the minds of humans. I don’t support the movement because acknowledging false diversity is one of the worst parts of humans. The truth is, from a scientific perspective, there is no such thing as diversity in humans.......We are frankly all the same. Do you call an orange cat and a black cat in the same room diversity of cats? You don’t! Well why are humans doing it. Did you know that same sex attraction exists in the animal kingdom?? Get a clue and educate yourself! The term diversity does more to divide us than it does to unite us. It’s just another side of the same stupid coin. Humans need to wake up and realize, that we are not the only intelligent species on the planet, in fact, we are one of the weakest, dumbest, most violent, irresponsible, over rated species on the planet........and NO, this planet was not created for us! We have created a made up world that doesn’t exist and we teach our children that made up reality is “OK” from the day they are born when we baptize them. Most of the excuses we use to exercise the hate within us can be traced back to our ridiculous Religions. Until we abandon religion, we are doomed and won’t progress as a species. Now will getting rid of religion end hate.......heck no, but at least we as a species will start to acknowledge we are not “all that and a bag of chips”. Our hate stems from our biological greed and our will to eliminate competition.

Thank you!
That’s basically what I was saying with this statement.

That is an appropriate question to ask. There is no debate that generally POC and women are comparatively underpaid in many professions. Whether income inequality is a major factor in pinball enthusiasm is less well studied.

the thing is i am not white i am hispanic.
i am from puerto rico. when white people say there is white privilege its like “its obvious we have privilege“ are you saying you are a better race so you have privelege? so condenscending. yes, thats the way you come off.

so here you are making the bad guy list.
this is what this is. a list of the people you would like to throw out of pinside. maybe even call their jobs to say they are racist right? pitchforks and all.