(Topic ID: 271202)

Backbox podcast: Let's Talk About Diversity!

By cait001

3 years ago


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  • Latest reply 3 years ago by poppapin
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    14
    #51 3 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    It's not just a handful of people either who say these things too, it's a persistent undercurrent any time this topic remotely comes up. Anyone who's been here a while could predict these comments. There's a reason this thread is in "post approval mode" right?

    the same thing happens whenever we bring up feminism as well.
    There's a reason the women's pinball groups are very active but most of those players aren't on pinside.

    21
    #52 3 years ago

    The comment from Hazoff is deplorable and precisely the reason why Pinside, unfortunately, gets a bad rep. @Robin, thank you for stepping in and saying something. I like Pinside for a great many reasons (getting help with my bonehead questions about fixing my games, poking through gamerooms pictures and inspiration from people all over the world, meeting new friends, and SHARING this great hobby), but blatantly racist posts like Hazoff's and the "here's an objectified female in front of a pinball machine" posts are the reasons why many people don't feel comfortable here, and that's a fucking problem. God bless cait001 for being one of the few females to continue to be Pinside-present and advocating for change. Cait, it's an important and necessary change and I'm an ally. The racism and chauvinism, blatant or passive, has no place here, or anywhere for that matter.

    Let's everyone, especially all you white guys like me, take an active role in making pinball a safe and welcoming place for EVERYONE.

    #53 3 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    You hop online to find out more, you find Pinside, and here's the diversity thread. You read the comments and come across "Its a hobby for well off white guys and that's not gonna change, nor does it need to." ... It sounds like a good old boys white club. Be real, would that make you want to attend a show? Does that sound welcoming?

    No, it was not welcoming. In fact that post was flat out racist. It has since been deleted, and the poster has been ejected from the thread. I caution everyone involved in this thread to take note. Racism is not allowed on Pinside in any form. If you have nothing positive to add to the discussion, then kindly drain the thread and move on. That being said, this is a very important subject, and I hope people will stick around and keep an open mind. The only way we can grow as a society is by listening carefully to what others with differing views have to say.

    #54 3 years ago

    Thanks Cait! And thanks to all those giving off positive vibes.

    #55 3 years ago

    It's funny that the thread is in post approval mode, yet one comment drew a permanent thread ban, and another was deleted outright. I can only imagine what DOESN'T make it through the filter.

    That said, I'm a big believer in letting people show you who they are.

    #56 3 years ago
    Quoted from yancy:

    That said, I'm a big believer in letting people show you who they are.

    sometimes it's important to note who is upvoting the eye-popping comments.

    10
    #57 3 years ago

    I think we all have a responsibility to welcome diverse people of all walks of life into our lives and communities. It can start with pinball but it cannot end there.

    Tolerance isn't enough- acceptance, encouragement, and understanding are needed. If that simple statement causes you discomfort, I encourage introspection.

    11
    #58 3 years ago

    This special episode of Backbox proved to be a great discussion. Even if you don't agree with everyone on the panel, it's still good to hear their perspectives and understand what's important to them. Regardless of the outcomes, I'm glad that discussions like this are happening. Because you don't know, what you don't know.

    If anyone listened to this podcast and wanted more, last month I had the honor of hosting a roundtable discussion with Imoto Harney, Sarah Line (Mrs. Pin), Kaite Martin, and Stephanie Guida. We had a similar discussion, except the focus was more specifically on women's experiences in the pinball hobby. It was an entertaining and informative discussion. I was very surprised by some of their answers, and the ladies were also hilarious. The ladies had some great things to share, and they weren't afraid to get way off-topic. Hitler, Sonic the Hedgehog, Whoa Nelly, Anne Frank, and Pinball Dogs were all brought up and discussed at some point.

    Give it a listen if you can find the time, it's well worth it, and the topics discussed are so varied that the time goes pretty quick. Thanks again to the ladies who participated, and thanks to everyone who's taking the time to think about and discuss these issues.

    Podcatcher Link https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-fzej7-dcc277
    Raw File Link https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nV6lqYYAHTVdyWcOTdjkl9LbK4o2ilgc/view?usp=sharing
    Off_The_Record_Podbean_300x300 (resized).jpgOff_The_Record_Podbean_300x300 (resized).jpg

    #59 3 years ago

    The problem is deleting disgusting/sexist/racist posts basically shields the person that made them having everyone know what kind of person they are...its lost in the either now.

    Then you eject them from the thread, no offense, but big fucking deal. Its window dressing just like the needing post approval that isnt real. So pinside is an ok place for people that make totally racist posts as long as you dont know they did?

    Wake up guys...think aboot how this would look in a year or two

    #60 3 years ago

    Is this Facebook or Pinside?

    #61 3 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    The problem is deleting disgusting/sexist/racist posts basically shields the person that made them having everyone know what kind of person they are...its lost in the either now.

    We didn't shield anyone. We simply removed the offensive post because it was ugly and racist.

    #63 3 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    Come on man, that’s not really constructive. I actually find your post pretty awful. If you don’t have anything to add to the topic then pretty please just drain it and move on.

    You just summed up his entire body of work here.

    #64 3 years ago

    I say keep deleting racist posts, no one should have to read that crap here. I would think that racist posts could also justify a permanent site ban, not just a thread boot.

    13
    #65 3 years ago
    Quoted from fosaisu:

    I say keep deleting the racist posts, no one should have to read that crap here. I would think that racist posts would also justify a permanent site ban, not just a boot from the thread.

    It doesn’t work. The same people continue to dazzle us with the same garbage thread after thread, and continue to get moderated or ejected thread after thread, and the cycle repeats over and over. They can’t wait to pounce at the slightest provocation to let us know how much of struggle their white life has been, how all lives matter, how some people “just love to be offended...” etc etc.

    I’ve had the same guy tell me publicly to “go loot with your black friends” and “there should be a tv show where you drive a truck into black protestors” in the past few weeks right here on pinside. Guy was not banned, and he’ll just be posting the same stuff in another thread like this any day now. Shocked he hasn’t shown up here yet.

    I wonder where this comes from, why people think they need to do this here. My best guess is these Archie bunkers’ families are just tired of hearing these dull played out rants, so are their friends (if they have any) and this place serves as some kind of racist relief valve. It really doesn’t add anything here, there are like 3 “arguments” against progressive action in pinball and we’ve all heard them a million times.

    Yes, we know you’ve never seen racism in pinball and you are are tired of people being offended. That’s great for you but there’s a whole world out there.

    #66 3 years ago
    Quoted from pinlink:

    Is this Facebook or Pinside?

    I'm not sure what the implication of this question is

    11
    #67 3 years ago

    Thanks for posting the resources. As a middle aged white guy, one of the questions I think about a lot is how best to be an ally or how to ask questions.

    I try to call out posts on Pinside that I feel are racist or hurtful to other genders/sexual orientation and it's exhausting. I can't imagine being the target of that stuff all the time.

    #68 3 years ago
    Quoted from gweempose:

    We didn't shield anyone. We simply removed the offensive post because it was ugly and racist.

    I already saw a bunch of people passing around screenshots of it in shock and disgust. Good riddance.

    #69 3 years ago
    Quoted from DakotaMike:

    This special episode of Backbox proved to be a great discussion. Even if you don't agree with everyone on the panel, it's still good to hear their perspectives and understand what's important to them. Regardless of the outcomes, I'm glad that discussions like this are happening. Because you don't know, what you don't know.
    If anyone listened to this podcast and wanted more, last month I had the honor of hosting a roundtable discussion with Imoto Harney, Sarah Line (Mrs. Pin), Kaite Martin, and Stephanie Guida. We had a similar discussion, except the focus was more specifically on women's experiences in the pinball hobby. It was an entertaining and informative discussion. I was very surprised by some of their answers, and the ladies were also hilarious. The ladies had some great things to share, and they weren't afraid to get way off-topic. Hitler, Sonic the Hedgehog, Whoa Nelly, Anne Frank, and Pinball Dogs were all brought up and discussed at some point.
    Give it a listen if you can find the time, it's well worth it, and the topics discussed are so varied that the time goes pretty quick. Thanks again to the ladies who participated, and thanks to everyone who's taking the time to think about and discuss these issues.
    https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-fzej7-dcc277[quoted image]

    thanks for this! Any chance you have a download link as well? I couldn't find one on the Podbean page.

    #70 3 years ago
    Quoted from cait001:

    thanks for this! Any chance you have a download link as well? I couldn't find one on the Podbean page.

    Hmm...it will download straight to your device if you use the podbean app, itunes, or similar podcatchers. I usually download them through one of those apps to my phone or pc. But let me see if I can figure something out.

    EDIT: Here's a link to the raw podcast file. Anyone should be able to download the file from this link by clicking th download button in the corner. This is another option for people that don't want to use itunes or a podcatcher. I add the link to my original post as well.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nV6lqYYAHTVdyWcOTdjkl9LbK4o2ilgc/view?usp=sharing

    #72 3 years ago

    I definitely want more women in pinball. I'm all about that!

    #73 3 years ago
    Quoted from robotron:

    btw i dont have “privilege” i worked very hard for everything i ever had and it disgusts me when people say others have privilege

    No one is saying privilege means you have an easy life. But "White privilege" is saying that you would have had to work harder if you were Black. "Male privilege" saying that you wouldn't be where you are if you were female (earning less and dealing with sexism on a regular basis).

    Can the White men on here actually say, with a straight face, "my life would have been better/easier if I had been born a woman/Black"?

    11
    #74 3 years ago
    Quoted from tomlogic:

    No one is saying privilege means you have an easy life. But "White privilege" is saying that you would have had to work harder if you were Black. "Male privilege" saying that you wouldn't be where you are if you were female (earning less and dealing with sexism on a regular basis).
    Can the White men on here actually say, with a straight face, "my life would have been better/easier if I had been born a woman/Black"?

    One even easier example:
    When I was younger, same-sex marriage wasn't legal in Canada. It took years of hard work to get that legally changed, and it's something I'm very proud to have been a part of. (years for me, DECADES for others!)
    compare and contrast someone growing up that was straight and never had to think twice about their legal right to marriage.

    That simple difference of growing up without that looming over your head is such a strident example of what 'privilege' can mean.

    #75 3 years ago
    Quoted from tomlogic:

    Can the White men on here actually say, with a straight face, "my life would have been better/easier if I had been born a woman/Black

    Any answer here is not the "right" answer. Socioeconomic status plays a huge part in this. If you gave me a choice of being born a rich black woman, or a super poor white guy, my early self would say rich black woman, while my current self says poor white guy. But the reason for choosing poor white guy has nothing to do with sex and race and everything to do with being poor and looking forward to going to school to eat, and never forgetting what that is like. It made me absolutely appreciate everyone, and I learned at an early age that everyone has something to offer, good and bad.

    I never trusted super rich white guys growing up, and now that I have interacted with a few of them, I still don't trust them.... Lol

    #76 3 years ago

    These topics always go down the same path, pointing out “white males”
    Every time no matter how it’s spun it always boils down to that. No other gender or race will ever be publicly faulted without an online war. Which in itself is a racist mindset because it takes an entire race and an entire gender and stereotypes them as ALL having the same mindset. Then you have people that fall into that classification (white males) that say “you’re right” or “you’re wrong” so there ends up being white males that try to say that’s not true and other white males that say it is true which spins argumentative responses.

    So root cause thought: if some cosmic event would happen that in the snap of a finger ALL WHITE MALES turned to dust, would all of the racist and equality issues be solved?

    #79 3 years ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    These topics always go down the same path, pointing out “white males”

    you are reducing diversity to a ridiculous strawman. It doesn't even seem like you're in the same ballpark here.
    sigh. we don't need some "all lives matter" kind of redirect here, but I guess I'm not clever enough to see what you're actually seeing here and relate to it in any way. Can anyone else help?

    If you think this is somehow a war on "white males" or that they are being scapegoated for all ills, I can just point you to the resources in the first post and hope you take some of them in.

    #80 3 years ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    These topics always go down the same path, pointing out “white males”

    Are there a lot of these conversations in Mogadore, Ohio? I'd never heard of it, had to look it up. You live in a town with less than 4000 people that's 97% white, so I'd just be surprised if there were, that's all. But I've never been there.

    Quoted from mrm_4:

    No other gender or race will ever be publicly faulted without an online war.

    I've already pointed out a case where that wasn't true, but maybe you're not reading and just reacting. It's really obvious that this topic makes some people instantly defensive and emotional. See "inviting anyone else to the party will destroy it!" as the prime example.

    Guess what? Pinball is vast majority white males. So yeah, white men gotta answer for some things here, because that's who's in the room. You don't need a genius IQ to figure that out, just a pair of working eyeballs and the ability to leave your house.

    It doesn't make me defensive, because basic facts don't get under my skin like that. If anyone acts like being a white man is some aggrieved position they're living the most precious sheltered life. Does that mean your life is perfect and nothing bad ever happens because you're a white guy? No.

    Either way, the fundamental problem with your response, and every other emotional response in this thread, is nobody is asking anything to be taken away from you. Welcoming more people into the hobby doesn't hurt you.

    #81 3 years ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    These topics always go down the same path, pointing out “white males”
    Every time no matter how it’s spun it always boils down to that. No other gender or race will ever be publicly faulted without an online war. Which in itself is a racist mindset because it takes an entire race and an entire gender and stereotypes them as ALL having the same mindset. Then you have people that fall into that classification (white males) that say “you’re right” or “you’re wrong” so there ends up being white males that try to say that’s not true and other white males that say it is true which spins argumentative responses.
    So root cause thought: if some cosmic event would happen that in the snap of a finger ALL WHITE MALES turned to dust, would all of the racist and equality issues be solved?

    Once again, missing the point, taking it as an attack, stubbornly fighting something that isn’t meant to be a fight.

    The discussion about white male privilege isn’t about YOU specifically...it’s about how you (and I) have benefited from systemic advantages & acknowledging the history behind it. Why am I, as a white male, not offended by this discussion? Why is it that I don’t feel threatened by acknowledging the inherent privilege I have as a white male in this country? It’s a fact! I’ve never thought about being kidnapped or raped...that’s something women think about everyday. That is privilege. I have it. I’ve never thought that I was being paid less than someone else or might not get a job due to my gender or race. That is privilege. I’ve never been profiled in a store or by police. That is privilege. See? It doesn’t hurt to acknowledge the difficulty of other peoples’ experience...they’re not racists for having those experiences and talking about them.

    That’s all this is about. It’s very simple:
    -Listen to people’s’ life experience.
    -Acknowledge the system has been inherently fairer to you.
    -Try to be part of the solution. Be kind. Be welcoming. Don’t discriminate. Listen.

    Honestly, just listening goes so far. Listen and process before that instinct to battle kicks in. The whole point of this is to stop seeing life as a versus battle.

    #83 3 years ago
    Quoted from ralphwiggum:

    Socioeconomic status plays a huge part in this. If you gave me a choice of being born a rich black woman, or a super poor white guy, my early self would say rich black woman, while my current self says poor white guy.

    In my hypothetical, I'm saying that all else being equal (i.e., socioeconomic status), do you think your life would have been easier if born Black? A woman? Or, as cait001 points out, homosexual?

    Quoted from mrm_4:

    So root cause thought: if some cosmic event would happen that in the snap of a finger ALL WHITE MALES turned to dust, would all of the racist and equality issues be solved?

    No. Undoing the effects of systemic racism in the United States will take decades if not centuries. "White males" aren't responsible for everything, but represent a group that has benefited greatly from their position in society. They are more likely to be in denial about their privilege, and can stand in the way of striving for equality. Magically removing them doesn't eliminate all racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, etc.

    If you lived your whole life getting a larger slice of pie than everyone else in your family, an argument for equality would seem unfair because someone is taking something away from you. But what's unfair is that you've been getting more than your fair share all these years. No one is saying, "no more pie for you". They're saying everyone deserves to be treated fairly.

    -1
    #84 3 years ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    These topics always go down the same path, pointing out “white males”
    Every time no matter how it’s spun it always boils down to that. No other gender or race will ever be publicly faulted without an online war. Which in itself is a racist mindset because it takes an entire race and an entire gender and stereotypes them as ALL having the same mindset. Then you have people that fall into that classification (white males) that say “you’re right” or “you’re wrong” so there ends up being white males that try to say that’s not true and other white males that say it is true which spins argumentative responses.
    So root cause thought: if some cosmic event would happen that in the snap of a finger ALL WHITE MALES turned to dust, would all of the racist and equality issues be solved?

    No, they would start to eat each other bc often identity politics is all they have. We need to break it down to the individual level. Individuals being judged on their merit and what they do or do not contribute to society. Individual people being judged for their own actions. Instead we judge individuals by other individual's actions within their group. This is apparently accepted for some groups but forbidden for many others.

    We can't engineer outcomes and force more diversity in pinball. We can only be accepting of those that choose to make it their hobby, regardless of their identity.

    #85 3 years ago
    Quoted from tomlogic:

    In my hypothetical, I'm saying that all else being equal (i.e., socioeconomic status), do you think your life would have been easier if born Black? A woman? Or, as cait001 points out, homosexual?

    Way too complex to give a real answer, way too many variables. What does the household look like? Supportive parent figures, one parent, two parents? How many kids? What kind of support system do the children have? What kind of school system are the kids in? What does the neighborhood look like?

    I get where you are coming from, I truly do, but none of this is as cut and dry as choosing a path and stating which one would be easier.

    Here is a non hypothetical I have seen firsthand. My background up until a few years ago was working for nonprofits. I am very mission driven, and not money driven, it is how I am wired. The last nonprofit I worked for had a receptionist that was the most polite, most respected person in the building. Never a bad day. After 15 years on the job, she was removed from her position because the new president didn't believe that anyone greeting the public (our clients) should look differently than the majority of our clients. The new receptionist was a former stripper that knew a lot of our clients just from living in the neighborhood. She was also very bad at her job.

    I know this is just one example counter of the discussion going on, but I have typically been the minority in every job I have ever had until the current one I am at.

    This entire movement is a complex one. It does start with equal opportunities for all, but there are a ton of moving parts inside that need to happen to really see change happen.

    I have seen many projects fail, and many successful, and a lot of times it comes down to one or two individuals/groups that can make or break a successful/impactful change on a larger scale.

    I am glad more people are having the conversation, I just hope it isn't more of the same "talk the talk". To this point it has been cyclical with large scale flare-ups leading to some minor changes (and some major). Can you imagine how accelerated our society could become if Amazon gave one years worth of profit to a struggling community in the US? A real jumpstart to opportunity for a large group of people? I know, socioeconomic, but still, it is a very large factor driving a lot of our current and past issues.

    -1
    #86 3 years ago
    Quoted from cait001:

    This is pinside and we have to keep the focus on pinball around here.
    If you're looking for any further resources or useful videos, please send me a message and I'll be happy to assist if I can.

    You're initial post has a ton of links to political issues that have nothing to do with pinball? I doubt your intentions are about pinball vs pushing your political view and looking for an opportunity to do it that relates to pinball.

    Mods, I thought politics were forbidden on pinside? Or is it only certain types of politics? Frankly I don't want to hear any of it. I want to read about pinball. One can go to their media of choice for politics.

    Pinball was a breath of fresh air from the pounding of politics from both sides we are inundated with daily. I guess the cancer of politics infects everything.

    We can't turn a blind eye just because our choice of confirmation bias does it.

    -5
    #87 3 years ago
    Quoted from cait001:

    you are reducing diversity to a ridiculous strawman. It doesn't even seem like you're in the same ballpark here.
    sigh. we don't need some "all lives matter" kind of redirect here

    I’m not reducing anything. Just stating what I see. The conversation led to “white males” as the root cause. And I’m in the NO LIVES MATTER camp. We are all equally worthless. I’d like to see aliens come back to remind us that our whole existence is because we are a slave species created to mine whatever resources they needed and obtained before they decided to abandon the planet. Then all these conversations around race, gender, sexuality, and religion would immediately dissolve.

    Quoted from Aurich:

    Are there a lot of these conversations in Mogadore, Ohio? I'd never heard of it, had to look it up. You live in a town with less than 4000 people that's 97% white, so I'd just be surprised if there were, that's all. But I've never been there.

    I've already pointed out a case where that wasn't true, but maybe you're not reading and just reacting. It's really obvious that this topic makes some people instantly defensive and emotional. See "inviting anyone else to the party will destroy it!" as the prime example.
    Guess what? Pinball is vast majority white males. So yeah, white men gotta answer for some things here, because that's who's in the room. You don't need a genius IQ to figure that out, just a pair of working eyeballs and the ability to leave your house.
    It doesn't make me defensive, because basic facts don't get under my skin like that. If anyone acts like being a white man is some aggrieved position they're living the most precious sheltered life. Does that mean your life is perfect and nothing bad ever happens because you're a white guy? No.
    Either way, the fundamental problem with your response, and every other emotional response in this thread, is nobody is asking anything to be taken away from you. Welcoming more people into the hobby doesn't hurt you.

    Not sure if I should be impressed by your looking up and reporting on the stats of my current city of residence or creeped out. But where I live at the moment doesn’t represent where I lived my whole life or how I value people or stances. Nothing emotional about my response. Again pointing out that it’s typical for these conversations to go down the avenue of white male targets. How does that translate to emotion? The 5 responses my question generated seem more emotional than my statement. A few people will answer the question but for the most part all that’s happening is people assume that I live in a bubble, assume I don’t know how to read, and assume I feel attacked.

    I read this thread with the direction cait001 opened it with. Diversity in pinball... which is an awesome thing but after about 25 posts it becomes less about pinball then it’s starts to happen.... the classic buzzwords, privilege, white, male, now we are 75 posts in. I pop in on post 76 and point out that this always happens and ask if white males were gone if the problem would be fixed and now I’m public enemy number one.

    Pinball is diverse. (That is measurable)
    Pinside is NOT as diverse or a good reflection of the amount of women or people of color in the hobby (That is also measurable)
    Discussions around diversity inevitably lead to someone blaming white males which is ironic because these discussions are supposed to be about equality yet a very specific demographic is openly accepted as being ok to blame. That’s counterproductive.

    cait001 I’m glad you started this thread, diversity in pinball needs to be celebrated. What everyone needs to consider is if the numbers are lopsided, then it’s best to ask those outside of the majority specifically why they don’t enjoy pinball and addressing those specific responses instead of the conversation being built on assumptions that it’s probably because of white males somehow.

    11
    #88 3 years ago
    Quoted from Djshakes:

    Instead we judge individuals by other individual's actions within their group. This is apparently accepted for some groups but forbidden for many others.

    Talking about “white privilege” is not judging you by the actions of others. In fact it’s not “judging” you at all, it’s just making the categorical observation that as a white person you’ve had a very specific privilege that Americans with different skin colors have not. A privilege that has applied no matter what other obstacles life has thrown your way.

    Having been born with that privilege doesn’t make you a bad person, and it’s not surprising for you as a white person to be largely unaware of it, since you’ve surely had plenty of other challenges in your life to distract you from noticing a negative (“hey, yet another day where my skin color hasn’t marked me out for suspicion or fear” isn’t the first thing that leaps to mind at the end of a long day). But it is a privilege nonetheless, one that makes a significant difference in your daily life even if you’re never consciously aware of it.

    -1
    #90 3 years ago
    Quoted from tomlogic:

    No one is saying privilege means you have an easy life.
    Can the White men on here actually say, with a straight face, "my life would have been better/easier if I had been born a woman/Black"?

    What a joke of a question.. Racist statements are bad, blanket generalizations and stereotypes good?
    The problem with this thread, and all corporations pushing these “diversity” plans- is there is no appreciation for the diversity already present. Little appreciation for the loyal customers you have already. You don’t count because you are white, rich and fat? All white people are not the same, any statement to the contrary is divisive. What happened to measuring people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin? I’m glad I’m not a young, white, straight male making his way up the corporate ladder- you have little chance of making senior vp or higher kid.
    I’ve seen black men in rolls Royces. I’ve seen beautiful, white, blonde women dying in jail from meth. Life is about owning whatever you are given and making it work. And then helping those around you that are true to you. If you want to sit around wondering what your life would have been if you were born a black woman, knock yourself out. Then wonder what your life would have been like being born a strong Irish Catholic lad in the hell of Connaught in the late 1830s. I’m sure he had a rosy time because all white people did.
    Squeaky wheels get the grease, the dry engine burns...
    Anybody want a quintessential story of this time, look up what happened in Milwaukee yesterday involving two (not really)missing 12 yr olds. Be sure to read article from today of who actually owned the house.

    #91 3 years ago
    Quoted from Djshakes:

    Mods, I thought politics were forbidden on Pinside?

    In general, they are. We made an exception in this case because the topic of diversity as it relates to pinball is an important one for our community. Unfortunately, some people have used this opportunity to extend the discussion beyond the intended topic. This thread was not supposed to be a catch-all discussion of systemic racism and inequality. There are plenty of other sites available where you can have that conversation. I am asking everyone to please bear this in mind as you continue to participate in this thread.

    #92 3 years ago
    Quoted from gweempose:

    In general, they are. We made an exception in this case because the topic of diversity as it relates to pinball is an important one for our community. Unfortunately, some people have used this opportunity to extend the discussion beyond the intended topic. This thread was not supposed to be a catch-all discussion of systemic racism and inequality. There are plenty of other sites available where you can have that conversation. I am asking everyone to please bear this in mind as you continue to participate in this thread.

    The only reason there isnt more diversity in pinball is because its mostly white males that enjoy the hobby. White males arent stopping anyone from playing. I wish it was a female dominated hobby trust me, that would be awesome. You can't make people like pinball. Also the reason pinball isnt more diverse damn sure isnt because white males wont allow different races and genders to play, you would have to be an idiot to think that.

    Every guy that I know wants more women to play pinball, but the truth is it just isn't something that many women are interested in doing. Unfortunately theres not even many guys that like pinball these days. I have people over at the house and most people will play a few balls and walk away unimpressed. It's just not that popular. I wish it was but it's not.

    #93 3 years ago
    Quoted from Djshakes:

    No, they would start to eat each other bc often identity politics is all they have. We need to break it down to the individual level. Individuals being judged on their merit and what they do or do not contribute to society. Individual people being judged for their own actions. Instead we judge individuals by other individual's actions within their group. This is apparently accepted for some groups but forbidden for many others.

    My first post to this thread was about how much I appreciate the greater diversity of my other gaming hobby. And how much I personally benefitted from it, and felt that pinball would see the same upsides.

    There were no "identity politics". Or blame. Was simply relating how I saw the positivity of a more open community. It's better than pinball. Just how I see it. And I have a lot of friends in pinball, who are all wonderful, and I've met tons of cool people at shows who recognized me and said nice things. There have been jerks too, but so what, every group of humans has them. Pinball isn't bad, I just see how it could be better.

    Recognizing privilege isn't about tearing you down, it's about making you a better person. It's honestly not that terrible to grow as a human being. We all have places we can do it. I certainly do.

    The only politics I see here are from people being defensive or attacking "liberals". It's tremendously boring, and not worth engaging in even if Pinside didn't discourage it. We're talking about the hobby, and making it better and more welcoming. If that sounds like politics to you then perhaps you need to examine your own issues, and not pin it on others.

    #95 3 years ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    The only reason there isnt more diversity in pinball is because its mostly white males that enjoy the hobby. White males arent stopping anyone from playing. I wish it was a female dominated hobby trust me, that would be awesome. You can't make people like pinball. Also the reason pinball isnt more diverse damn sure isnt because white males wont allow different races and genders to play, you would have to be an idiot to think that.
    Every guy that I know wants more women to play pinball, but the truth is it just isn't something that many women are interested in doing. Unfortunately theres not even many guys that like pinball these days. I have people over at the house and most people will play a few balls and walk away unimpressed. It's just not that popular. I wish it was but it's not.

    Don't you think some of that could be fixed? Maybe there isn't more women or more POC interested in pinball because there aren't themes that speak to them. I think a manufacturer needs to take a chance and create a pin that isn't a safe bet that will satisfy their existing customer base. There are themes that would be a big success that would draw in more women and more POC, conversations have already been had on this topic.

    People criticize women's leagues and organizations like Belles and Chimes. But I've seen first hand women start playing pinball through women's leagues that have led to them feeling more comfortable in the hobby and eventually participating in other tournaments. But without fail, you always have men complaining about leagues for women. The point I'm making is that it took a chance and it has successfully introduced more women to the hobby. But it all started with a conversation to identify an opportunity for more diversity. So a podcast that is a roundtable to discuss how pinball can be more inclusive to our hobby should be celebrated.

    (For the record, my comment about men complaining about women's leagues is not a jab at you, I'm speaking generally because I've seen it happen in other threads and in real life. Please don't take that portion of my comment personally)

    #96 3 years ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    cait001 I’m glad you started this thread, diversity in pinball needs to be celebrated. What everyone needs to consider is if the numbers are lopsided, then it’s best to ask those outside of the majority specifically why they don’t enjoy pinball and addressing those specific responses

    Tragically, I think a loud contingent of pinsiders has made it clear they have no interest in those answers.

    Quoted from Djshakes:

    You're initial post has a ton of links to political issues that have nothing to do with pinball? I doubt your intentions are about pinball vs pushing your political view and looking for an opportunity to do it that relates to pinball.

    Mods, I thought politics were forbidden on pinside? Or is it only certain types of politics? Frankly I don't want to hear any of it. I want to read about pinball. One can go to their media of choice for politics.

    the initial post is a verbatim copy+paste from a conversation that includes the head of the IFPA.
    When schools were desegregated, everyone decried the politics.
    When sexual harassment rules were implemented in workplaces, everyone decried the politics.
    After a while you have to just understand you might be well behind the status quo. You could have easily drained the thread.

    But while you're hear, please take some time to listen to the pinballers who aren't the status quo. Take time to listen to the podcast. (EDIT: podcasts, a second one, on women in pinball, was also post in the thread!)

    #97 3 years ago
    Quoted from mkecasey:

    But I've seen first hand women start playing pinball through women's leagues that have led to them feeling more comfortable in the hobby and eventually participating in other tournaments. But without fail, you always have men complaining about leagues for women.

    Pinside should approach the women's leagues with a questionnaire and ask all the members why most of them don't come to pinside.

    #98 3 years ago

    More diversity is never a bad thing. I feel fortunate that I am in a large league with both men and women in it. I guess I hadn't thought about it before, but this is obviously quite rare. I'll admit that it's not a particularly diverse group from a racial standpoint, but it is quite diverse in terms of backgrounds, politics, religion, etc ... I think it's great being exposed to people with different life experiences and ideals. I've become friends with both men and women in my league that I most likely wouldn't have encountered if it wasn't for pinball.

    #99 3 years ago
    Quoted from cait001:

    Pinside should approach the women's leagues with a questionnaire and ask all the members why most of them don't come to pinside.

    I'm sure it's because most of them are afraid they will experience sexism or have to deal with inappropriate comments. Keep in mind these would come from a select few and do not represent the majority on this site. The majority do not want blamed or labeled for the select few morons that can't behave properly. I have been harassed by other races and sexes in my lifetime and do not blame or expect those races and sexes as a whole to apologize or hold guilt for a few bad people.

    #100 3 years ago

    Hmm...this is definitely veering into politics and social commentary, but I will say that my wife and I had a lengthy discussion on "privilege" and "white privilege" the other night. My wife is British, and didn't grow up learning about the history of slavery and racial discrimination within the United States, the way I did. So that made for an interesting discussion, as much of what has been happening in the news and the stories behind the news, is new information for her.

    Historically, I've always found the term "White Privilege" to be a divisive one. As I've often heard it used to dismiss the opinions/perspectives of others, but I know that's not all that it means. One thing which I've been coming to grips with is that having "white privilege" doesn't actually mean that you've had a "privileged" life. It just means that generally speaking, you haven't had to worry about certain issues that a person of color may have had to. As a young child, I grew up in a divorced household, living in small apartments or trailers, sometimes we were even on food stamps, and I never got to go on a true family vacation ever. We couldn't afford to. There are many people of color who have had a much more financially or socially advantaged upbringing than me. But...I've never had to worry about interactions with the police, I've never had to worry about racists, and I've never had to worry about people treating me badly because of the color of my skin. That's what white privilege is.

    And really, it's racial privilege, and it varies from country to country and region to region. My racial/white privilege growing up in SD, would be different to the racial privilege that a white person would have experienced growing up in apartheid South Africa, which would be different than what a white person growing up in Japan would deal with.

    These are interesting things to think about, but I'm not entirely sure what they have to do with pinball, or what kind of change that those of us within the pinball hobby can affect. I think the main take away is just to try and be friendly and welcoming when people come to your pinball events. And you know, don't say racist or sexist stuff at pinball events / venues. But that should really go without saying.

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