Not at all pissed about that. I'm upset about the comments saying that knockdowns are "part of the P-ROC system" and that P-ROC controlled flippers can't behave as well as Data East flippers from the 80s, both of which are pretty much the definition of libel in that they're incorrect and undeservedly damaging to our reputation/business.

I'm not upset about discussions for improving your flippers, and I agree that it's a worthwhile discussion and hopefully results in improved performance. I think I pretty thoroughly explained everything, but your response still suggests some misunderstandings. So let me address a few points.

The flippers are the most important part of the game.

I agree.

I've got R&M next to an AIQ and the difference in flipper action is very noticeable between the two games.

There are lots of differences between the two games... coils, mechs, power filtering, etc, and both of those games have a lot of differences from Fliptronics. What specifically are we talking about now? Knockdowns? As discussed above, games with P-ROC can/should be made to operate without knockdowns. If your flippers are getting knocked down, proper EOS rules (whether hardware or software) will fix that.

Please do whatever you can to address this issue.

What would you like me to do besides explaining why you have knockdowns, propose the software commands that will close any logic gaps due to timing, and schedule work on the implementation of a complex "switch rule" that eliminates the need for those software commands? That's what I did, and then you attacked again.

The repeated complaints in this thread are absolute proof the flippers in R&M don't work as well as Stern or other current games.

I can't speak to R&M flippers vs Stern or other games. P-ROC is used in a lot of other games, including hundreds running fliptronic boards and many running varying configurations of coils / mechs / voltages / etc. Do P-ROC-controlled WPC/Stern games have the same problems? I can speak a bit to Houdini, which runs P-ROC and did have a knockdown issue. Josh and I chatted, and he implemented a change. I haven't been told of any knockdown issues there since an EOS-based software change was made. That said, I believe Houdini has dual-wound coils, and that's an important difference. If R&M tells the hardware to issue a re-pulse on an EOS event, but the re-pulse is configured to be too weak, it won't keep the flipper up. Lots of variables, yet your conclusion is always "cause, P-ROC". BTW, Eric and I have chatted too, and we chatted again today.

It appears the answer is because your flipper code runs in software, and not as a hardware implementation?

I'm not sure how you concluded that from the explanation. I'm pretty sure the P-ROC is the only control system in pinball that uses hardware logic to control flippers (in an FPGA and as configured by software). I'm pretty sure every other pinball control system uses software (usually in a local microcontroller). There are some trade-offs. Our control system can and does react faster to switch events than every other system out there. That said, for more complex flipper control logic, we either need more complex switch rule support in our FPGA firmware, or software needs to send a couple of extra commands, and that's exactly what we're talking about here.

If you want to discuss more specific details in private, please PM me.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

That sounds like the right approach for any machine... maximize flip strength throughout the stroke (if software is using EOS to turn off flip power rather than a timed pulse) and have any knockdown-protecting re-flips activate as soon as possible.

Not necessarily, but the implementation trade-off is heat. The hold PWM can be increased to hold the coil stronger (I assume that's what the hold strength settings are doing for the lower flippers). EOS-based re-flips don't require super strong holding power. Since the flipper doesn't have an EOS, I'd guess it originally had a dual wound coil, and that would hold better without increased PWM (not perfectly, but better). If it was originally wired that way and if the circuit was still available in the game, switching to a dual-wound coil might be a useful mod.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

It's likely unrelated to the changes that re-engage the flipper when the EOS opens. It's more likely fatigue due to stronger hold PWM to be more resistant to knockdowns. Eric can speak better to that, or perhaps you could try lower hold strength settings and rely more on the EOS re-flips.

The "P-ROC implementation tweaks" are just dealing with re-flips and state control relative to the EOS. They have nothing to do with the single-wound coil heat profiles due to various PWM frequencies. So no matter what your measurements are, they won't suggest doing something different relative to the EOS. They could just impact how strongly the coils are pulsed for hold strength, which is purely a software choice.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Glad my writings are helpful, even if more out there than here.

I don't understand your conclusion there. Yes, keeping on the hold winding in a dual wound coil won't generally generate as much heat quickly turning on/off the only winding in a single wound coil to hold the plunger in. It can depending on the impedance of the coil and drive parameters, but that's a much deeper conversation. The main reason single wound coils are generally selected over dual wound is cost. The coils are less expensive (less copper, one less lug, less labor), and they needs only one drive circuit rather than two. That cost savings doesn't imply the solution is worse. It just comes requires more commands for EOS support and PWM hold parameters tuned to the needs of the machine (based on the coil impedance, air flow, plunger and coil stop material, etc).

You would generally have success grabbing a dual-wound coil designed for 70v pinball games, putting it into a 48v pinball game, and using the same drive parameters games have been using for decades. With single wound, it's an entirely different story at 70v vs 48v. Using the same single wound coil at 70v would need a lower duty cycle PWM than at 48v to hold the plunger in. Run the 70v duty cycle on a 48v system, and you'll get knockdowns more often. Those knockdowns will be very slight if EOS reflips are implemented to respond quickly, but they'll still be there. So... it takes tuning.

I find it really interesting that of all of the differences between the machines, and despite my explanations, some of you keep going back to "controller board" differences. The Stern controller board isn't magical. It doesn't do anything fancy. It's a microcontroller that responds to switch events and issues specific drive requests (as programmed by the code) to the drive circuits.. The P-ROC controller board isn't magical either. It also doesn't do anything fancy. It's an FPGA-based controller that responds to switch events and issues (as programmed by the code) to the drive circuits. Both are just tools. Both can do the same thing. I explained a couple of the tradeoffs of microcontroller vs FPGA in a previous post, but they're immaterial to this discussion. The primary difference with Stern is that they've had (and required) decades to tune their systems. Remember Stern's Lord of the Rings flippers?
Their single wound coils would heat up quickly, making the ramps unhittable after 10-20 minutes. I think Pinball Life even made stronger coils that wouldn't suffer as much from the heat build-up. I'm glad to hear they've since tuned their drive parameters and improved their performance. It's not magic, it's just a lot of engineering.

The P-ROC works with dual wound and single wound without prejudice. Many are using P-ROCs with Stern Whitestar and SAM machines without issue (single wound). Same for WPC machines (dual wound). Some new MFGs are using dual wound and some are using single wound. Again, dual wound is easier to get right. Single wound results in less BOM cost but likely requires more engineering to get the drive parameters perfected.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Well said, Cory. Thanks.

I definitely don't expect end users to know (or need to know) the details of the hardware and how it can be used to control flippers, but I'm happy to answer questions about it. It's only public claims that the P-ROC is the source of issues that are problematic and damaging, especially when those claims aren't backed by real data. (You can replace P-ROC with any vendor supplied product.)

Everybody can and should expect their machines to be as perfect as possible from every manufacturer. If they aren't working, talk to the manufacturer and let them work with their supplies to find the root cause of any issues. Spooky and Multimorphic have an interesting relationship because Multimorphic provides Spooky their control system boards, and Spooky provides Multimorphic things like printed plastics. So we're both suppliers and customers to each other.

If anybody thinks there's an issue with a printed plastic on their P3 machine, please report it to Multimorphic. We'll figure out if we handled and installed it properly and consult with Spooky if necessary. We'll also make things right with the P3 customer. If you think there's an issue with your R&M flippers, talk to Spooky. They know the most about the flippers, coils, wiring, etc in their machines, and they'll consult with us if necessary.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Bumping up flip strength to try to overcome power degradation due to single-wound coils heating up and/or installing fans to keep the coils cooler in the hopes of minimizing degradation are both not addressing the root cause. I mean, do them if they help, but I'd be looking for ways to keep the coil from heating up in the first place. The code suggestions I gave address knockdowns and any corner cases resulting from them. So now the programming/settings tradeoff is how strongly to hold the flipper up (which creates more heat ) vs how often to re-energize the coil to overcome knockdowns (which also generates heat, but not nearly as much as constantly pulsing the coil). It sounds like Eric implemented the fast re-energize code such that it can react almost instantaneously. So if it were me, I'd leverage that more and lower the hold power to reduce heat.

Heat is obviously one big downside to using single-wound coils. Step 1) optimize the drive parameters of the flipper to minimize heat buildup. (I don't know what settings are provided in R&M to allow you to tune these things.) Step 2) use other means to reduce the heat.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Sounds like there might be more going on with your machine causing the coils to have to work much hardware than on other machines. Probably best to discuss with Spooky support and isolate what's different.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

<technical discussion of possible flipper-control software>

Yes, you can do all of that in software, and timing wouldn't be an issue at all. What you've described is also a workaround. The hold power can be set so it's just strong enough to hold the flipper up in most cases. Knockdown prevention reflips should be 100% reliably. The only tricky case is where another downwards force (eg. a second ball) hits the flipper before a reflip gets the flipper to reactivate the EOS. That exceedingly rare case is easily detectable in software, which could send a secondary reflip.

Your idea would more intelligently detect certain cases where a knockdown is more likely to happen and increase hold power to avoid an EOS event, but it's unnecessary.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

With and without your suggestion, it's best to run the hold at what works for "the majority of gameplay" (your hypothetical 40%) or even weaker. With your suggestion, you'll increase the hold power at well-known times and maybe eliminate some cases of re-flips. Without your suggestion, you'll rely on re-flips in the rare times when they're needed. Occasional re-flips won't contribute much or at all to the overall heat profile. So, best to K-I-S-S.

Agreed - I've addressed the untrue accusations about the P-ROC (by others, not @RobF) with perhaps too-detailed descriptions of how everything works. I've discussed the code with Eric, and it sounds like the suggestions have helped significantly for most of you. Those of you still having issues likely need to adjust your hold strengths or tweak your mechanicals. If your game isn't enjoyable because of ongoing flipper issues that weren't addressed by the latest release, please contact Spooky tech support, which has always been great. If they need any more input from me, they'll ask me directly.

I'll duck out of this thread now. If you want to talk about control system features or how to implement various algorithms (for pinball/flippers or otherwise), I'm happy to discuss in the #pindev slack channel, where many pinball machine and software developers hang out and discuss everything about pinball dev. You can PM me for an invite.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Just watched your video. Is the flipper spring stock? The stronger the spring, the more it'll want to pull down the flipper and the more coil strength (higher PWM setting) it'll take to hold it up, which of course generates more heat.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Ok - it looked unusually large to me. Maybe an optical illusion.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

It makes perfect sense. The spring's entire purpose is to bring the flipper down. If it's too strong, it'll bring the flipper down when you don't want it to. Software can try to overpower it, but that'll just create more heat, causing flipper fade.

Glad to hear that swapping it is helping many of you. Hopefully it's the final piece to the puzzle.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Owners, a control system designer, and a fantastic software developer too!

You're welcome. Fingers crossed.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

We don't currently sell a pop bumper LED board. The one in R&M isn't from us. I think it's a PBL board.

We do have a bunch of LED boards on our site... all of which we use in our P3 games, but the only boards used in R&M from us are the P3-ROC, PD-16, SW-16, and PD-LED.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

.