Not me. I like to tinker. I love this game. Can’t stop playing it. Spooky hit it out of the park IMHO.

True. Especially when it’s this early.

Lol. I have a personal game coming later in the build.

I already assume spooky will have made adjustments since the first few batches. It is what they do.

I am merely pointing out that people moving rails 1/2 inch is insane. Totally their choice to do whatever they would like with there game. I sure hope spooky is not moving any guides to that extent. It is so far in the other end of the spectrum and there is a happy middle imho.

Initial games needed tweaks.
No game needs rails moved to the extent that some are doing to make the game much easier than designed.

The adjustments have definitely helped, but 30-40% of the time I rip the spinner the ball gets to the top of the loop and the slowly trickles back. Diverter seems to work fine. Are others guides bent like this and do others have that triangular plastic (laying flat on the playfield). The plastic seems to be protecting the playfield from the diverter, but it sticks out into the lane...is this normal?
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The only issue/question I see that I think needs addressing for the Upper Spinner Orbit, besides removing the two guide screws, is the "rattle" that Regularly rejects the ball back down to return through the spinner again. For Sweetly placed valid shots.

Way too regularly I'm watching "perfect" shots to the spinner fly past it and rip it good, only to brick on some aspect of the diverter transition, and finally dribble back to the spinner. Perfect shots should not be rejected with such frequency.

It is in the streams. All of them.

Lol .... yeah, what he said!

I was looking at the screws in the diverter and or the step from the diverter pivot to the right ball guide that meets with it.

Countersunk screws and a flush surface maybe?

Alignment of diverter with the right ball guide?

It is hard to tell with no physical game present and only pictures, of course.

Good to hear, I wasn't necessarily referring to you.

For reference, the game I played rejected 80-90% of the time when I cleanly hit the inner orbit. @troz's pin with fixes seemed to flow so smooth, like one would expect it's intended to shoot.

Why is the crimp at the top of the inner orbit, I'm guessing it's necessary? That seems to me what may be causing the rattle at the top of the upper orbit.

My assumption would be that it may be to do with directing the ball path away from that diverter "rough spot" that I described.

Problem I see there is the way things get very unsmooth when the diverter is closed for the right orbit past spinner.

I can't wait to get my game!! ... partly so I can fiddle (I like tinkering lol)

I’m hoping the horseshoe ball save is coded in the next code drop. It looks like there is an option for it currently in the settings but it doesn’t appear to do anything yet.

I should really take the house off and see what’s going on under it when I hit the left loop...was hoping I didn’t have to do that. It does play really smooth otherwise, but that rattle bugs me. I hit the left loop 3 times and then the garage tonight...boooyah!

Are anyone else’s post rubbers getting obliterated extremely fast? A couple of mine are already turning black and getting torn up after 2 days...

Mine lasted around 500 games. Then I replaced them with Cliffy post sleeves...really loving them.

Switch to urethane. I never looked back, wish I'd discovered the material for pinball rubbers sooner.

Are all of them easily accessible? In particular the ones next to the lock under the huge plastic by the ship? It looks like a PITA to remove that plastic and I’d like to avoid if possible.

The harder ones to get at I was still able to loosen the plastics (not taking them completely off) and gently lift the plastic high enough to slide the post sleeves off and then replace them. The post rubber had to bend but that was no problem.

"SuperBands" are another urethane option. Between Cliffys and Superbands there is a huge variety of shapes and colours available.

Cool, that’s what I was hoping for

I chose pink and blue...there’s pics on here earlier of what I did.

Can you share Who you are referring to? I know my suggested how to was no where in the “insane” category in fact I moved them all to the actual paint line where I suspect they were Supposed to be by design. If by chance you were referring to my suggestions I can only say I have tweaked 3 games now and they all work perfectly now. For the record, none of these adjustments are a poke at Spooky. Simply a suggestion for others that may have issues.

Yelobird made the adjustments he talked about earlier on my game and now it plays with some good flow. I’ve had ir for a couple weeks and just finally pulled it out of the box today. It played like a total pig before the adjustments with left and right orbits rattling and not hitting inner loop or very infrequently due to upper flipper not line up properly with the steel guide.
I rarely believe anything you say anyway because you’re always saying how great Spooky is and trying to get everyone else to drink the kool aid. I like Spooky but they gotta straighten this stuff out for the other people down the line because the geometry was not spot on imo. There’s no doubt about it.
I never seen these kind of adjustments made before on a game once purchased but I’m sure Spooky will make those adjustments. They’re good people.
But this should’ve never happened.....

Not all of the adjustments, particularly the more severe ones, are required to make the game play well. At least that is the way it looks to me.

Seems all issues, including the rattles at the diverter, can be rectified with very minor tweaks, including but not limited to leaving out the superfluous screws.

Some of the adjustments pictured and described are simply way over the top and altering the intention of the game, I think. jmho.

Be more specific please. What adjustments are the “severe ones”?

Um... drilling holes in a brand new playfield??

I would say drilling new screw holes ... but it's just from my observation of streams, and knowing what mods had been done to the machine in the given stream.

After removing the surplus screws, adjusting within the boundaries of the guide slotted holes, and maybe some minor tweaking/altering of bends in the guides ... game plays very well.

Only question, the rattling at the diverter maybe. But this looks like it can be made good with a well adjusted ball guide, but might also vary with playfield pitch ....

I'm providing thoughts and feedback. I don't have a game yet so no trials or definitive answers here.

I won't be putting new screw holes in my playfield, that much I know. Just me though.

Removing lights from the playfield because they no longer fit, to me is a distinct sign that things have gone a bit too far .... ?

What lights were removed missed that post? Guess you will see when you get your game and set it up to your preference. All anyone is doing is showing you what you can do if you would like to improve it. As for “just removing a screw”, it’s 18ga stainless steel not rubber. Removing a single or over several screws will not make it suddenly bow as a ball passes. Trust me I tried that lol. All good and loving the game now.

8th & 9th pics.

I think you'll find the removing screws is allowing movement you can't notice, but is there.

Consider a hard steel ball on a hard solid steel block. If you drop the ball on it, the ball will bounce. The energy is sent back. No real "give", but the material is still "springy".

Then the same hard steel ball dropped on a hard steel sheet, overhanging and Not supported from below (the impact zone)..... the impact of the ball, the energy, is absorbed in the movement, or "give". A dead blow, that doesn't "bounce" (or bounces Significantly less, at least).

By screwing the fairly thick ball guides down with many screws makes a "rigid" and less giving wall. It is firm, and energy returns to the ball, "bouncing" it off the guide.

Now take a heap of screws out so that some flex can absorb/store energy as the ball impacts, meaning it would bounce less on the guide (if at all), and follow it. The guide returns gradually after the End of Impact, with some energy gradually being returned to the ball on gradual return to shape. ie. less per rate than the centrifugal force holding it against the guide.

Someone else described it quite adequately a few pages back. Repeated here with different words. The impact is dampened, spread. There is a "time" consideration that varies too, absorption, duration, reflection, stuff, things ... Lol

I'm all on board with some screws being deleted, especially when it is endorsed by the engineer responsible for the game.

I don't think radical ball guide alterations are warranted at all.

I will say when you Have a game or Play the game in person removing 2 small screws will not do any of what you describe. Sorry, a bent arch of steel fastened at its ends (6” apart) to a board will not suddenly become a shock absorber. There are only 2 screws that can be removed there. Unless you are shooting a bullet at it I don’t think you’ll see the give you are assuming. You don’t have to believe or even try any of these suggestions but I can assure you every Simple (always easier) fix was tried. #Troz has even shown us great real world video to show it works. I choose reality over assumption personally.

Trust me I am not assuming about that. Period.

As I said, you may Not "See" a difference. But the fact is that there is substantial difference. As is evident as well in the streams/videos, with different playfield setups. The shots to the spinner start to work better as the ball gets less bounce (without the screws). Not me saying that, just physics, and the streams. Just because You Cant see momentary degrees of "flex" doesn't mean it isn't happening (more), and affecting the way the orbit behaves, to the point where it then proves to work more often than not.

Modifying the layout so drastically, to make sooooooo Easy?? ... not the path I'll be going. But that's just my preference. People can do as they desire with their games, ultimately.

Same

I was able to fully tweak our route game without drilling new holes or changing overall game design geometry.
It may be needed for some to enjoy the game, but I do not believe that was the intended nor how it should play for my personal games.
It may be needed for a particular game because of how a rail was originally installed.

If anything, I think the root cause is inconsistency of rail placements on the first batches. Wonder if a dimple machine could be in Spooky future?
Seems like the proof positive way for a designer to ensure precise placement for their design and removes the ability for the assemble team to become inconsistent.

"Makable when shot cleanly and challenging when not" is my preference.

R&M was not intended to be a Stern auto-shot, where you can close your eyes and flip. I am 100% positive about that. The upper flipper shots were meant to be challenging to hit. Out of the box, they were all makable. With minor adjustments they are smooth and repeatable.

Some of the adjustments people are doing have effectively opened up the shot lanes so far that they appear to be double the original effective lane width.
Again, your game and do what you want. For me, that level is neither needed or desired and I sure hope spooky does not take it to that extreme.

Granted, I would rather play 10 games on a challenging game that keeps me coming back rather than a much easier game where the shots become gimmies and I make it deeper into the game each time I play.

I guess I’m just a little puzzled by your opinion “Flip”? In post 1769 You were the one that posted these diagrams of change which if you compare to what was done is Exactly the Same! Lol. Odd that your changes are the Same yet now you say the game is 100% perfect out of the box. Rather confusing. These are YOUR pictures lol.
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So let me get this straight. Do you actually own a game yet?
Or are you just talking from an engineering perspective?
Because if you don’t own a game yet, give it a rest. Seriously.
Where are you from by the way???it doesn’t say under your Avatar. Just want to make sure you’re not another dude from Wisconsin protecting the Spooky name.

Sorry, I did not realise most people couldn't see my location. Fixed

Game or no game does not change the way stuff and things are, mate.

The game stands up fine from what I have seen, without outrageous modification. That's just my reasoned opinion. Love it! ... Can't Wait!!!

Here we go again. Drink the Kool Aid everyone.

Okay so let’s see photos of the “tweeks” you made without drilling holes. I want to see them. Really.
I want to see where your rail guides are right now after your “tweeks”.
Look, you didn’t design a darn thing so you don’t know what the game was supposed to be designed as and either does Spooky. The only person that knows that is Danesi.
I don’t need to know what your desired level of a game should be either. It’s completely irrelevant. You should be hired as a spokesman for Spooky and get paid.
What is relevant is the geometry. Bending ball guides is not “normal tweaking” by a long shot.
With that said, the changes Yelobird made by drilling holes were actually a positive change that would not be significant to have Spooky make if they saw fit.
Not my call but should be considered.
The game is really good....now.
Before it was a klunker.

So you don’t even own a game?

Game or no game? Really?
Good lord.
This is simply ridiculous.
Stop.
Remind me to buy my next game based off your recommendation of what you see in a video. Lmao.
Sorry mate. Not happening.

Not the same.

I made a drawing to show the idea behind bending a ball guide to ensure you have a curve in your ball guide to help adjust the game. This can be done with using the normal slots in the ball guide. Simple adjustment and why the tabs are there.

You moved the ball guide 1/2 inch and drilled new holes. Totally your choice.

There is a difference from making a fine tune adjustment and a whole sale rail movement a 1/2 inch to completely change the geometry.

Your game and do as you wish but game was completely fine out of the box with typical minor adjustments

Ok, Last try here lol. #Whysnow I have not made any statements or claims that you were not telling the truth. I don't Think that is your intention to help. Is it Possible however that (you had an earlier game) that your view and opinion is based on something Different then WE are receiving??? For clarity (and the engineers of the group) Here is a picture of YOUR rail (with your suggested moves) along with OUR games in green (Stock Unmodified!). Please focus on the Primary end screw and tab location by the bulb. You either Moved that screw hole location OR your game had the hole drilled at Least 5/16" back further! Look clearly at the slot and where your tab meets bulb and how close it is to the square ramp cutout. Yours is Clearly Way further back And almost touching the bulb. SOO, is it Possible your game is NOT what we are getting and Maybe not correct?? I am fine with saying your may be ok (even though you did a write up to move the rail) but I can assure you the games are Not the same hole locations. Or you moved it! Can we at Least agree, Your game is Different!!! Also notice where Our rail lines up with the Paint compared to yours..... Possible???
IMG_5184 (resized).jpgsnow (resized).jpeg

Photos don’t lie.

PM is an option

It would be helpful if they were from the same position, but looking at them it seems like yelobird's is drilled a heavy 1/4" or so further from the artwork. Weird, as many of the other holes seem to be in the same places...but that one is definitely off.

Having a game or not is irelevant to the question at hand. Take a chill pill there, bud.

I've paid for a game. Pull your head in.

So with your engineer view, can we agree that the #whysnow game Hole is in a Completely Different location to the (3) games we have? Seems pretty obvious to me?

Only 1 person can resolve this for sure and that’s Scott. I hope he chimes in one way or the other. If the guide placement/alignment is wrong it seems like a fairly easy fix. I wouldn’t worry about drilling new holes as I’m assuming they’ve already produced all the playfields and they’ll all have to have new holes drilled. I’m fine with just holding off until there is a definitive answer.

Tbh I haven't followed that aspect of the discussion just yet? .... I was just pointing out that from my observations of stream gameplay, which is no less visibility of flow than real life, just removing the screws alone makes sufficient improvement. That's observation of what happened. The part that is my view, is that it is enough (just removing the screws) to be playable/enjoyable. To me severe alterations, like in the order of half an inch, are "hacks".

If people reason that they want to drill new holes wherever, it is their option to do that. I will just go with the holes provided by Spooky.

I'd have to try to understand what the point is around the image you're talking about ....

I shouldn’t be getting in this fray; the hardware is not my end really, BUT ...

In the case of the garage shot, if you pull screw 2 and 3 the next attachment point is very far in the back and it 100% becomes a shock absorber.

Wholey shit, lol.

I used pictures of games that others posted and drew lines on them.

You guys need to settle down with your conspiracy theories.

I did NOT drill any additional screw holes.

You guys can get really weird at times. Lol

That was from Your post? What conspiracy are you talking about. So even with your pictures you don't think its Possible that game is different? Honestly trying to back you that you think your game is fine possibly because it is Different.

On an interview Scott said spinner was meant to be a hard shot so probably way harder than say Maiden loop shot.

Doubt it's meant to hang up near the top of the loop though.