I watched Bowen’s stream, you’ll really see how deep Love Potion No 9 is!

Meaty appendage?

Wait is he using his fingers on flipper buttons or something else? This could explain a lot...

After trying everything to fix my right flipper fade issue, I decided to just replace the whole assembly with a new one that Spooky sent.

Seems to have improved slightly, except I'm getting way more dipping and auto flipping when the ball hits the flipper, and I'm getting this awful sound:

Anyone know what this might be?

Everything is on factory default setting on the newest code.

Thanks.

I think that sound is normal. If you watch my video mine does it too.

Hey, it's my pinball machine, I'll play with it how I want to

It wasn't doing it before I installed the new flipper assembly, and the left side definitely doesn't do it.

Is the flipper plate tight on the playfield? Did you replace the whole plate and flipper mechanism, or just the flipper mechanism? That buzz is worse if something is loose, even a little. It should be more like a hum at worst.

Please let us know if it works!

Flippers: I have been trying everything mechanical (inc the Stern springs) + adjusting settings in the latest code and I couldn't get the flippers back to where they were (game was frustrating and not fun on the latest code). For an experiment, while we were streaming last night, I back dated to the March code and immediately my buddy posted a new GC of 145 mil. We definitely like the behavior on the March code. Will be leaving that on until new code drops.

Just got done modding my machine. I have extra figures if anyone is interested, PM me.

IMG_4546 (resized).JPGPRBQ6869 (resized).JPGXIOK4526 (resized).JPG

rick (resized).jpg

Thanks for this info. I've been planning on trying this as well.

I'm going to say something about the flippers that's hard to put into words. On my machine it feels like the flippers have speed but no power or torque. I'll try to explain. From a cradled ball or a ball running through the inlane there's plenty of ball speed generated to get a ball up the ramps. However, they feel weak when hitting a ball on the fly that isn't on the flipper ( if that makes sense! ). If I flip at a ball that's away from the flipper, through flailing or just poor timing, there's very little ball speed generated. You may say this sounds normal but no, I've owned over 40 machines and I've never noticed this behaviour before. It's like there's enough speed generated in the flipper from a standing start, but interrupt that flipper speed/travel partially through it's travel and all power is lost. Does anyone else notice this?

“AGGRESIVE/HIGH” essentially matches the march code (The only thing changed was the holds because “OMG HEAT FADE DO SOMETHING” happened).
Personally, I’d recommend going back to the “ORIGINAL” setting for hold, that’s the one I decided would work best through testing on the white wood before the game released and we used it for the whole first year. It only changed due to “OMG I’M GETTING KNOCKDOWNS” complaints, and in the end it was changes OTHER than the hold power that helped out with that — SO, too much information later, try “ORIGINAL”

REMEMBER: Due to an issue with how the coil settings are read, on current code you have to fully reboot if you change the hold settings.

The “Flip” is a straight up “turn the coil on for X milliseconds”, and always has been. If your setting is 30, it fires for 30ms. Period. There’s no PWM happening on the actual flip to adjust power. WMS games used 34ms, from what I remember in the pindev discussions — BUT, old games also used 70 volts.

WOW! That's a LOT of Meeseeks

Have you ground/shaved down your bushings?

A big problem is the height of the flippers relative to the center of the ball. Lots of energy is being lost there.

Would love an update on how much longer until the new bushings are available.

I know you believe it should be the same, but something is definitely off. Before the new code, I had it dialed in with NO issues. After the new code, no matter the settings, it isn't consistent regardless of settings. To be clear, I've tried Original, Default, and Aggressive on default and high for each. And yes, I do reboot after each change. I gave up on messing with timings because anything but default made things worse (which is actually a good thing as default 'should' be the best setting )

One additional thing I'm noticing that I forgot to mention is that the upper flipper seems to 'half' flip at times. This didn't occur before and it doesn't happen often, but it does occasionally.

As Kevlar mentioned, there is lots of what seems like 'weak' shots from the flippers on this new code if you set it to anything but the defaults of each setting. This is not the same as flipper fade that people have seen.

As I mentioned, I plan on going to the old code to see if it goes back to the way it was. If we get a consensus that this helps, then I would hope that might point in a direction of why the new code is causing some issues. Heck, who knows, maybe a percentage of us the upgrade didn't install completely in some manner, and going back and reinstalling the new code might fix this issue.

I feel like I now understand what it must be what it’s like when NASA scientists try to deal with flat earthers.

I replaced the complete assembly, plate and all.

Could the EOS cause this sound?

I'm going to try to be tactful, but this comment isn't helpful to you or me. I deal with coders every day who think their code update they rolled out could never have caused the large outages that brought down the stock market. You don't know me, I don't know you. I realize you are frustrated, as am I. I have an issue, and am looking for a solution. Since I can't request a code update every day, I'm trying to determine what exactly the issue is. It could certainly be on my end, but as of yet I have no explanation as to why. However, when multiple people report the same issue, it is usually, NOT on their end.

If you don't believe you can help, that is fine. My posts aren't directed at you so much as reporting what I am seeing, and trying to determine if others are seeing similar issues and may have found a solution.

I've experienced that same upper flipper issue on the new code update as well.

Also, fluttering and locking of the flippers (up) for the transition into adventures. Resets as soon as the adventure starts...
but there is some wonkiness/ghost action at the beginning of each adventure, now. It wasn't there previously.

Yes, I've shortened the bushings.

The stock market thing is a pretty ridiculous comparison but; whatever. I posted specifics about what the software does, and I get “I know you believe that” — it’s not a belief. It’s facts. I know what changed. I try to explain and I’m met with disbelief. So then there’s no point in trying to bother.

Good luck everybody.

I'm not here to spar with you. I believe you know what you are doing. Anyone who knows coding knows that just because you know what you coded, it doesn't mean something was missed that may not have changed in the way it was meant. That was my point. It wasn't an exaggeration, I generally have to push multiple times past the 'it can't be something I did' until there's the 'oh..wait..I found something moment'. When something breaks, you look at what changed. The ONLY thing that changed in my case was the update. At the same time I'm not even 100% saying that's the issue. I'm actually leaving it open that it comes down to something else. For you to come back and insult me, well... That's on you. Even worse if you are going to stomp off.

Just putting this out there...I've found many of the posts in this thread helpful and my machine is currently running quite well on the newest code after a bunch of the standard tweaks. Flippers are powerful, I don't notice much fade, and the knock downs are down to a very minimum amount - only on the upper flipper which epthegeek already stated he would be adding a setting for that one flipper in particular on the next release.

- I'm at 6.9, original bushings, flipper angle hasn't been adjusted.
- Tuned my EOS and flipper button contacts, this helped the most
- Settings are ORIGINAL and hold is set to HIGH
- Left ramp I didn't touch and the power to hit it is not a problem at all

I've had many of the minor issues people mentioned in here, all were fixed though with some minor tweaking (adjusting the metal lane guides for better flow and smoothness, magnetic switch replacements to help flow and fix the inconsistent activation of the diverter, and adjusting the launch wireform for consistent drops after launch). My last hurdle is getting more consistency from the scoop, I get more rejects than I like.

Overall I'm very happy with the machine, and it was my first NIB I've had and was mentally prepared to put some tweaking in. This seems normal for a new game, especially earlier in the run. While other manufacturers have had playfield issues out of the box (ghosting, clear coat damage, etc), I am pretty satisfied that the issues with R&M are tweakable at home with some patience.

I LOVE THIS GAME! It is so dam hard though...but that keeps me coming back.

Pretty lame Flounce right there.

Here's hoping the Russian Judge pads your score.

Is what has been programmed ever verified with a storage scope to see whether it occurs as expected?

I can imagine it gets hairy if the EOSs and flipper buttons are debounced, and I presume interrupts are involved.

I don't recall coil saturation ever being brought up, either. Is it not pertinent?

None of us have any incentive whatsoever to whine about non-existent flipper issues.

The problems are real, and it's been great to have you on this thread responding to our issues.

Hard to know what "Good luck everybody." means, but it doesn't sound good!

When the flipper bushing issue was discussed 5 months ago, Spooky management stepped up and chimed in. Lots of upvotes for Charlie!

Even though Gerry Stellenberg isn't in the Spooky management chain, he also chimed in and I believe worked with you. That was also positive.

At this point, sensing your level of frustration, Spooky management needs to take this issue seriously! They seem to have left the thread/party, and now you are threatening to do the same. The community has arguably been patient. I'm sure you love pinball and can relate to having flippers that don't work properly!

As a future potential owner I follow threads like these to make a decision what games to hopefully get one day.

From all that I have read R&M has the potential to be one of the best games ever made.

All new games these days seem to have issues and it's part of pinball ownership to work your way through them.

Bowen and Eric seem to have done an amazing job rules/code wise.

Seems like the flipper issues are super frustrating for all.

Will keep following as flipper issue must be fixable hopefully

Add wizard mode and this game candidate for an all time great ( actually there may be a wizard mode, not sure, may have missed it ).

Wow folks, ever look a gift horse in the mouth much? I was hoping to see some more new modes / dimensions in the future but at this rate we will be lucky if a picture of the programmer's extended middle finger doesn't show up as the first screen of the service menu!
So many of the answers are already in this thread and have been addressed many times over and yet some individuals just keep bringing up the same shit over and over (too lazy to read or they just need to yell into the old echo chamber). Can we just let him work on code improvements please? Start by reading those key posts maybe...

I say we ditch the new flipper code, go back to the flipper code from last year. And for those of you who play long enough to see flipper fade, maybe just buy some Pinmonk fans.

Pretty low, dude.

We get it. We're idiots. But we also bought R & M and we'd like to see it playing the best it can play. Obviously there's still a great variety of experiences happening, plenty of them unsatisfactory. So you can keep calling us idiots if you want, but it doesn't fix your flipper code (or whatever it is that we're too dumb to understand).

Comforting words before I shell out $7000 more dollars. Hope this issue can be solved. :/

Gift Horse. You are kidding right?

The near 10k admission fee makes this situation anything but one of an ill mannered response to a gift or favor.

Eric's participation in this Thread could be seen as such, certainly.
But I am sorry, his behavior isn't immune from criticism as a result of his participation here. He wants to flounce out of here, fine by me.
I am gonna make fun of it, though.

I am really confused. Lol

The price of admission isn't 10k it was 7800? Overpaying second hand market isn't the same as what it actually sold for new.

I know that if there is an issue it will be found and fixed. Even stern eventually fixes stuff..... normally

Fully optioned with delivery it is closer to 10k. I should know, I sent the cash to Spooky.

And, for the record, I am NOT complaining about the price of admission. Best fucking game I have ever purchased. Have to be 5-6k games played on mine already and no sign of fatigue for the gameplay or the code in sight.

Just some weird issues that need to be ironed out with the flippers.

Ben Heck's new Spooky Beetlejuice board set features 70v flipper coils, confirmed!

I doubt the EOS is causing that sound. It's just flipper coil buzz. LOUD buzz, but just buzz. Usually it's due to a loose flipper plate or one that's not super tight, or when components ON the plate aren't tight. So you basically just want to make sure everything's tight, and if that doesn't work you can try sliding some thin vibration dampening material where the flipper plate contacts the playfield. The playfield is basically amplifying the sound.

Also, in doing the Tibetan Breeze kits, I've found that Spooky seems to be using #6 screws (in two lengths!), which don't have quite as much bite as #8 x 1/2", so for a very solid, tight connection of the flipper plate, you might also try #8 x 1/2" hex head philips screws (which is what's going out with the new Spooky TB cooling kits).

To that end, I know the "gutter screws" at Home Depot work and they have a nice head that works with either a philips screwdriver or a socket, which is nice and similar to the ones JJP uses for their flipper plate. Unfortunately, they only seem to stock the brown (UPC 8 87480 045147) and white (UPC 8 87480 01094 7) color dipped head versions in the store, so that's what you'll get unless you want to wait for the straight-up stainless ones to be delivered from them online.

NOTE: With the thinner R&M playfield DEFINITELY put the #8 x 1/2" screws against the edge of your playfield to judge the depth they'll go into the playfield when installed and make sure you didn't get a slightly longer one in the mix that might go through your playfield. With the extra thickness of the flipper plate these are going into, I think that's pretty much impossible, but always better safe than sorry.

It's gotta be difficult not taking all this constant feedback/criticism on the game you're coding personally.

Like many here... I've been in this thread since the beginning because I bought a spot on day one. I've seen all the good and bad posts with people making good solid constructive feedback and people just bitching or complaining. (I'm not speaking to this specific topic I just mean in general) I've also seen many people including myself praise all your hardwork and dedication to this game that we all LOVE.

I met you and your wife at Madison for the Rick and Morty launch party so I can honestly say I know you are a very nice person!

You've got a tough job on this game with so much going on and I think 99% of us all think you've done an amazing work!

Don't let Pinside piss you off. Take a break play some pinball and have a couple beers.

That’s what Rick would do!

D3C36FC8-44A7-4A26-9DAA-73236F9DA99F (resized).jpeg

Pinball is hard...

You guys are directing your frustration in the wrong direction. epthegeek has gone above and beyond with this code. It's one of the greatest theme integrations we've ever seen, and I've never been more excited about updates than on this game.

Charlie and gang were all over this thread until shit went south with flipper complaints and other random issues, leaving Eric holding the bag and dealing with all of our complaints. If there is a technical issues in the code, than It requires management to step up and assign resources to get this sorted, not just leaving Eric here to get fed to the wolves.

We should be supporting Eric, and holding Spooky accountable.

I know one thing, I'd buy any game that Eric was involved in coding, but I'd NEVER give another penny to Spooky after this experience with my game.

Hopefully other pinball manufacturers recognize the talent that Eric possesses, and they scoop him up. Can't even imagine how incredible a CGC or JJP game would be with him on code.

Eric, keep doing what you do. I'll be directing my issues and frustrations to Spooky (Charlie).

You just have to understand that Spooky is very young in pinball manufacturing terms. They're still figuring things out as they go, building their technology base. The flipper performance issue is frustrating, but JJP, another relatively young pinball company further along the curve now, had LOOOONG running, serious failure issues with their lighting on WoZ that went on for YEARS before there was a solution that stuck. Something like 5 years from launch through all the broken iterations to the actual 2.0 lighting kit that fixed the issue for WoZ owners permanently - AND owners had to pay for it (which I GLADLY did).

So I think Spooky will solidify their technology and engineering base where flippers are concerned over time, but each manufacturer has to reinvent at least part of the wheel themselves because there's very little sharing happening where tech is concerned. Is that a drag? It can be when it affects you, but mistakes will be made along the way. It's just the way it goes. I feel like EVERYONE at Spooky is doing their best to make a great pin and address the issues as they pop up, and it's not exactly a secret that Spooky is a work in progress - there's 267 pages of testimony for any prospective buyers to know exactly what kind of ride they're signing up for.

Comforting words before I shell out 7000 more dollars.

P-ROC supports 70v flippers, theres a place to hook it up.

How this would affect the game without blowing everything up is left up to the engineers.

Adding a big capacitor (or a bigger capacitor) to the flipper circuit, like API did, might give us a bit more power headroom.

Controlling flippers is simple yet very complex. Theres a lot going on in a modern game.

https://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Controlling_Flippers

Just to be clear, the company is 8 years old. The flipper mechs in the game are decades old. If Spooky was developing some wiz-bang new flipper mech, I could understand why the engineering might need some dust settling time. In this instance, there is very little "Research"...it's pretty straight ahead pinball Development. Shit, even P-ROC has been used in quite a few games...and P-ROC's designer has been in the loop.

Eric has been clear throughout his posts...he is a programmer. He is not a hardware/electrical engineer. While Spooky may be a small company, this is a multi-million dollar project. Someone at Spooky must be the DRE (Directly Responsible Engineer) for the end product! Years ago, CGC had serious flipper/microcode issues and they worked through them quickly. I know, because it involved my early build AFMr and helped them debug the problem over FaceTime.

The single-wound coils are new to Spooky, starting with Rick and Morty. So wrong on point 1. They've been working with single-wound for ~18 months.

The coils are using P-ROC to control them, and the dual-wound coils Spooky used before did a lot of the heavy lifting (ha!). Single wound takes more programming and timing care, and it's a lot of trial and error. 18 months is NOT a long time to fine-tune that.

Yes, all the hardware has been around for a LONG TIME, but P-ROC is only ~5 years old, and there is precious little information sharing in pinball manufacture or programming, so inventing at least part of a wheel is status quo, unfortunately.

Personally I feel that, unless Ben Heck has made silicon magic with his Beetlejuice board, Spooky should go back to dual wound coils until they get a better handle on driving single wound at least as well. But that's me. Pinball is always much easier to engineer from the spectator stands.

I lost a screw that that go into the standoffs for the pinmonks fans. Does anyone know the size of the screws?

Which one? The stainless hex standoff or the black hex cap one?

Agreed. I in no way was criticizing him, however I am very experienced in the world of figuring out WTF broke when other people (or even myself) broke it. I've not had all the time in the world to really dive into this specifically so my testing has been sporadic...and frankly...sometimes I just want to play pinball. I as many others have spent a crazy amount of time tweaking this game. For me, the flippers are now the last piece that is giving me grief. What I do know is that as someone pointed out - by following the key posts - mine was working flawlessly on the last code. As soon as I updated, it went south, and no amount of fiddling has fixed it.

On that note though, also known is that some people NEVER appeared to have issues at all through any code, and others have never worked 100% at all. There's a wide variation.

I can't help it if he is taking this personally. No one is jumping on him or being an ass to him that I am aware of. If he's frustrated, he can take a break from the thread. I'm not going to hold it against him. Those of us with issues, just want to get past them and the whole point of these posts is to do that. We all love the game overall. I fucking can't stop playing it. If I didn't I would have washed my hands of it months ago. The rest of my games just sit right now.

People tend to get frustrated when others who are ignorant about the situation (no one outside of Spooky has the code) try telling them what they're doing and why it's wrong. Things were fine til y'all started doing shit like insisting "original" is different, when he's looking at the exact same code on his screen...

Report problems with specifics and don't tell Eric how to code and things will be OK. I am 100% certain Spooky is taking this very seriously.

There's a rule about coding, and I already covered it. I have a personal rule that if someone tells me, 'it's not us' , I ask a minimum of 3 times in 3 different ways - giving further evidence as I find more. That's how many times it takes before someone REALLY actually looks deep enough to find an issue. For all we know, it has absolutely nothing to do with the code, BUT...once again, it's not like this is just me. I have zero issue telling someone to take another look if there's an issue because that's their job. I would do the same if it was being asked of me.